What Does It Take For God To Save A Sinner?

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If one were to look closely into what they think to be a storm, or scary lightening, they might see something that caught my heart and soul in the moment. I see three major bolts of lightening touching the earth at once. I see God the Father, welcoming back His Son from death, and sending to us the Holy Spirit, or the Helper. I see the power and Glory of God. I see majesty. I give reverence to what is in my heart, my mind, and my soul. I stand amazed.

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Job [SUP] [/SUP]Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow?
 
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Matt3737 said:
Oh, did we inconveniece you? Did we not fall over ourselves to hang on your every word and make "you feel good" about yourself. Way to do God's work at your leisure and then at your earliest convenience disappear as if you had accomplished something, which as you said earlier is your own sinful nature to spread blasphemy since you cannot possibly choose to do good.

Seriously, go fuck yourself. I'm usually respectful of a person's beliefs, but I am very certain that you are neither sincere nor in the right to anything you claim.
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Flavus Aquila said:
Argument for argument's sake is only useful for those who wish to sharpen their mental acuity and possibly learn something along the way. I think what is going on here is not that people are arguing for the sake of arguing. I think people are expressing disagreement.

I am disagreeing with your rejection of 90% of what is in the New Testament. I think you have to come to terms with the fact that you are not interested in Christ's message. You are only interested in avoiding hell. This is reflected in your lack of serenity and maturity in speech. Your lack of maturity is reflected in your inability to engage with what others say in a constructive way. Saying "your ignorant" and running away indicates to me that you cannot discuss any Scriptural subject, besides the very narrow topic you have chosen to champion. This inability is either because you are not actually interested in the Scriptures, or because you are having an immature tantrum towards whoever refuses to enter into your extremely narrow reading of Scripture.

Faith is necessary for salvation (some qualifications noted), but there is so much more in the Scriptures for those who already have faith, indicating that faith is only the beginning of the Christian life and of Salvation. St Paul and St John are adamant that Charity is the perfection of faith - and this charity is worked out in a multitude of ways. @SovereignGrace if you ever wish to move on beyond the most basic and simple starting point of the Christian life; that is, if you ever develop an interest in, or love for Christ and His Scriptures, we can start having a discussion. You are not interested in Christ, or His ways - your are only interested in avoiding hell, which while a very sensible sentiment, cannot be the primary aim of a Christian. A Christian is not characterised by fleeing in fear; but by moving forward in peace and love towards Christ.
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Nobody is fleeing in fear. I said I simply don't have the time.

You don't seriously think I'm obligated to respond to every question, do you?

Do you think Christ commanded his people to spend all their time on internet forums?

Obviously not.

I've got a full-time job, a wife, and three kids. Do you honestly expect me to spend all my time arguing with a bunch of people who don't have a clue what they're talking about?

If so, you are completely unreasonable.

And all of you seriously need to start READING things before you comment on them.

It would prevent a lot of misunderstanding.
 
SovereignGrace said:
Unless your question had to do with how God saves sinners, I really don't feel any desire to respond.
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I did, in fact, ask you this very question.

Matt3737 said:
How is one to be saved when we are so evil that we cannot even choose to be saved? By your reasoning, there is no salvation nor redemption because we are so "totally enslaved to evil."
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Matt3737 said:
I did, in fact, ask you this very question.
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Matt3737 said:
How is one to be saved when we are so evil that we cannot even choose to be saved? By your reasoning, there is no salvation nor redemption because we are so "totally enslaved to evil."
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That's not a sincere question, it's a snarky, sarcastic accusation that I am not making any sense.

But I will answer it anyway, because at least it's a relevant question. (because I created this thread, and it's about how God saves sinners.)

Since we are so evil by nature we will not and cannot choose to be saved, GOD must save us by supernatural regeneration--by raising us from spiritual death and giving us spiritual life and faith.

It's altogether a work of God. And God has the right to give it to whom he pleases.

Nevertheless, if anyone seeks understanding, salvation, forgiveness of sins, he will find it, because if anyone truly seeks it, it's because God GAVE him the will to seek it.

In other words, every aspect of salvation is of God, from start to finish, so that no man can boast in the sight of God.

But one HAS to go to the RIGHT SOURCE--not a God of their own imagination, but God as he is revealed in the Scriptures.

Now that's all I feel like saying at this time.

You've already shown that you are unreasonable and narcissistic, by expecting me to answer your questions.

I will answer when and if I have the time.

Frankly, you have a strange sense of entitlement if you think you can tell me to "go f*** myself" and question my sincerity, and yet expect me to answer your questions at all.
 
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SovereignGrace said:
Since we are so evil by nature we will not and cannot choose to be saved, GOD must save us by supernatural regeneration--by raising us from spiritual death and giving us spiritual life and faith.

It's altogether a work of God. And God has the right to give it to whom he pleases.

Nevertheless, if anyone seeks understanding he will find it, because if anyone truly seeks it, it's because God GAVE him the will to seek it.

In other words, every aspect of salvation is of God, from start to finish, so that no man can boast in the sight of God.

Now that's all I feel like saying at this time.

You've already shown that you are unreasonable and narcissistic, by expecting me to answer your questions.

I will answer when and if I have the time.

Frankly, you have a strange sense of entitlement if you think you can tell me to "go f*** myself" and question my sincerity, and yet expect me to answer your questions at all.
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I find it strange that you find that others are not entitled to doubt your sincerity, as if liars do not exist. Yet, you make that claim towards others consistently and frequently.

I do not expect you to answer my questions. It is at my discretion to pose them and at your discretion to answer them.

I am entirely within my rights to doubt your sincerity as it is still my belief that you are a liar and it is at your discretion as to either persuade me otherwise, accept, or disregard my opinion of you.

I shall ask you this:

God GAVE him the will to seek it.
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You also stated that man's will is totally enslaved to sin. How do you resolve this dilemma?
 
SovereignGrace said:
God GAVE him the will to seek it.
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Matt3737 said:
You also stated that man's will is totally enslaved to sin. How do you resolve this dilemma?
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There is no dilemma. God simply OVERPOWERS the will.

God GIVES the person a new will that DOES seek the things of God.

What is so hard to understand about that?


And by the way---that old will remains alongside the new will, fighting one against the other, until that saved sinner dies.

Only when that saved sinner is taken to glory, does he become completely free of sin and unbelief.

Until then, he must rely on God's grace, trusting in Christ as his righteousness before God.


EDIT:

Also, The idea that God cannot or will not "violate" a person's free will is absurd, and totally un-Biblical.

Unless he overpowers a person's will, that person will never be saved.


I really don't have time to give in-depth answers on the forum, but I can point you to other resources.

There are plenty of books, websites, sermon audio, etc. that I can recommend if you want to know more.

For starters, you could listen to the sermon link in the O.P.
 
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SovereignGrace said:
There is no dilemma. God simply OVERPOWERS the will.

God GIVES the person a new will that DOES seek the things of God.

What is so hard to understand about that?


And by the way---that old will remains alongside the new will, fighting one against the other, until that saved sinner dies.

Only when that saved sinner is taken to glory, does he become completely free of sin and unbelief.

Until then, he must rely on God's grace, trusting in Christ as his righteousness before God.


EDIT:

Also, The idea that God cannot or will not "violate" a person's free will is absurd, and totally un-Biblical.

Unless he overpowers a person's will, that person will never be saved.


I really don't have time to give in-depth answers on the forum, but I can point you to other resources.

There are plenty of books, websites, sermon audio, etc. that I can recommend if you want to know more.

For starters, you could listen to the sermon link in the O.P.
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Well, that is an interesting response. Unfortunatly I believe it is simply semantics to redirect the issue.

That is fine for after the fact, but not before the fact. How does one seek it in the first place if man, as you said in your own words, can not and will not seek the good.

You make an impossible barrier to entry and then resolve it with a miracle of God. I am stating, as a matter of fact, that your premise that man is incapable of choice is incorrect. I do not have any issue with how you believe God works miracles, but you place a contradictory state of affairs before us when you claim that man has a will of evil and that man has no will at all.

Neither of these are exceptions to entry into the grace of God. There has to be choice to go from evil to good. There has to be a willful movement from one state to the other. Otherwise, both our state of sin and state of grace are both willful works of God and as such we have nothing to speak of, argue, debate, consider, or do. Either state is effectively moot, irrelevant, and/or illusory.

You have yet to answer when I asked you if God purposefully and intentionally designed us to be sinners.
 
SovereignGrace said:
There is no dilemma. God simply OVERPOWERS the will.

God GIVES the person a new will that DOES seek the things of God.

What is so hard to understand about that?


And by the way---that old will remains alongside the new will, fighting one against the other, until that saved sinner dies.

Only when that saved sinner is taken to glory, does he become completely free of sin and unbelief.

Until then, he must rely on God's grace, trusting in Christ as his righteousness before God.


EDIT:

Also, The idea that God cannot or will not "violate" a person's free will is absurd, and totally un-Biblical.

Unless he overpowers a person's will, that person will never be saved.


I really don't have time to give in-depth answers on the forum, but I can point you to other resources.

There are plenty of books, websites, sermon audio, etc. that I can recommend if you want to know more.

For starters, you could listen to the sermon link in the O.P.
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you've obviously never read the bible. Why don't you read the bible?
 
Matt3737 said:
Well, that is an interesting response. Unfortunatly I believe it is simply semantics to redirect the issue.

That is fine for after the fact, but not before the fact. How does one seek it in the first place if man, as you said in your own words, can not and will not seek the good.

You make an impossible barrier to entry and then resolve it with a miracle of God. I am stating, as a matter of fact, that your premise that man is incapable of choice is incorrect. I do not have any issue with how you believe God works miracles, but you place a contradictory state of affairs before us when you claim that man has a will of evil and that man has no will at all.

Neither of these are exceptions to entry into the grace of God. There has to be choice to go from evil to good. There has to be a willful movement from one state to the other. Otherwise, both our state of sin and state of grace are both willful works of God and as such we have nothing to speak of, argue, debate, consider, or do. Either state is effectively moot, irrelevant, and/or illusory.

You have yet to answer when I asked you if God purposefully and intentionally designed us to be sinners.
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God created the first man, Adam, upright and without sin. But Adam disobeyed God and was cast out of God's presence, plunging the whole human race into sin.

Yes, God purposed Adam's fall, but God is in no way responsible for Adam's sin.

If you think that's contradictory, then take it up with God. You will most certainly have the opportunity when you die.

Thanks for toning down the unreasonable and unnecessary attitude a bit. But apparently, you still think I owe you something.

And you're still accusing me of having ulterior motives.

Therefore, I am finished with answering your questions.
 
[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]

No, you don't owe me anything. I seek my own understanding.

You know, having two wills is an interesting theory, how does a good Christian "choose" between his will of sin and his grace given will of God?

Sounds like a convoluted restatement of free will. Since we have now arrived at our original premise, I think we can officially conclude a circular argument except for your inability to resolve the dilemma presented between your two contradictory premises of having no will and having an evil will. We just jump over that and get right into the evil will being resolved by a miracle of God and we're right back to free will.

Awesome. That was fun. Thanks for playing.
 
SovereignGrace said:
Nobody is fleeing in fear. I said I simply don't have the time.

You don't seriously think I'm obligated to respond to every question, do you?

Do you think Christ commanded his people to spend all their time on internet forums?

Obviously not.

I've got a full-time job, a wife, and three kids. Do you honestly expect me to spend all my time arguing with a bunch of people who don't have a clue what they're talking about?

If so, you are completely unreasonable.

And all of you seriously need to start READING things before you comment on them.

It would prevent a lot of misunderstanding.
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I have come to expect no answers from you, because you may not have any.

I admire your zeal that sinners should turn towards God; but all you have is zeal, and a few quotes to back that zeal up - and nothing more. It may be, as you indicate, because of the burdens of family life, or because of a certain inflexibility to absorb what you read in the Scriptures.

So project ignorance onto others, if you feel you must, but don't blame your wife and kids for not having any answers, because despite your claims that we have no freedom, you should take primary responsibility for your own situation.
 
Shaqie said:
You will become my best friend on this forum, it appears.
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Ah, well. I'm just so tired and worn that it's ridiculous. There's really nothing special about what I'm doing.

Like how Marilyn Manson's mother died recently and he made a post on Facebook, which said "To my Mother, the first and greatest believer in me... I hope I see you again someday. But not now, because I have more things I promised I would do. I'll make you proud and satisfied that you know you made the son you wanted," and some people are all talking about how he's not going to see his mother because he is going to hell, looks like a demon from hell, sings the devil's music, and all kinds of inappropriate bullshit. Going so far as to say people like him are the problem with America even.

But if you speak against something like that, you are the one who is intolerant. I am so fucking sick to death that I don't even care.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
I have come to expect no answers from you, because you may not have any.

I admire your zeal that sinners should turn towards God; but all you have is zeal, and a few quotes to back that zeal up - and nothing more. It may be, as you indicate, because of the burdens of family life, or because of a certain inflexibility to absorb what you read in the Scriptures.

So project ignorance onto others, if you feel you must, but don't blame your wife and kids for not having any answers, because despite your claims that we have no freedom, you should take primary responsibility for your own situation.
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I do know the answers. I just don't have the time to answer every question.

And I'm not blaming my wife and kids, I'm saying that my time with THEM is more important than my time with YOU.

THINK about it. Unless you're some kind of narcissist, then surely you can understand that.

It's just a fact that I don't have time to answer every inane question put to me. I have to prioritize.

You must not have any real responsibilities if you can't understand such a simple thing.
 
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sprinkles said:
Ah, well. I'm just so tired and worn that it's ridiculous. There's really nothing special about what I'm doing.

Like how Marilyn Manson's mother died recently and he made a post on Facebook, which said "To my Mother, the first and greatest believer in me... I hope I see you again someday. But not now, because I have more things I promised I would do. I'll make you proud and satisfied that you know you made the son you wanted," and some people are all talking about how he's not going to see his mother because he is going to hell, looks like a demon from hell, sings the devil's music, and all kinds of inappropriate bullshit. Going so far as to say people like him are the problem with America even.

But if you speak against something like that, you are the one who is intolerant. I am so fucking sick to death that I don't even care.
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Marilyn Manson seems like a very cool guy, and I like him. And, incidentally, I believe he's an INFJ.

And there's nothing particularly evil about him, he's just an artist who likes the macabre.

And the only reason he would go to Hell is if he dies without faith in Christ. Just like everyone else.
 
SovereignGrace said:
Yes. It's disgusting and shameful, and totally unwarranted. Most of you need psychological help.
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Oh, I've heard about the type of "psychological help" you guys "give" people. Suicides galore. You should go see someone outside of your delusions, though. That would be good for you, and especially your family.
 
vandyke said:
Oh, I've heard about the type of "psychological help" you guys "give" people. Suicides galore. You should go see someone outside of your delusions, though. That would be good for you, and especially your family.
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"We" don't give psychological help.

We preach the Word of God, and leave psychological matters to the secular world.

Most so-called "psychological disorders" are just sin anyway. Like the self-absorbed, narcissistic sense of entitlement which most of you exhibit in this thread.

First of all, you assume the universe is a democracy, and that Almighty GOD has to get your permission before he can do anything.

Then you expect total strangers to answer your questions when you're totally belligerent and insulting.

That's really a sin issue, but if you won't deal with it as a sin issue, then you ought to at least get psychological help.

Honestly, if you had the slightest clue how unreasonable you're acting, you'd bury your head in shame.
 
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