If we have no free will of our own, and each step we make is under the direction of God…then how could God be just for punishing us for our sins when we had no choice to make them or not?
That is utter nonsense.
What Does It Take For God To Save A Sinner?
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
- Start date
That is utter nonsense.
I used to question how "God" could do this or that, how "God" could allow pain and suffering. Remember I was raised in a family that while not obsessive in any way about religion, my mother believed in God and so thats what we were taught to believe. Then one day I realized I honestly completely did not believe in God. Notice how I say "God" because I was raised in a geographical region where the God of the "Bible" presides. Anywhere else in the world I would be talking about the God that worldwide has more followers than that God. I speak of Allah. It still took years to remove the tendrils of subliminal brainwashing from my mind. Every now and then I would catch myself thinking, "That person is f'ed, how can anyone believe in a God that could watch that let alone allow it." These days I allow myself to yell at an imaginary being for all the wrong done in the world. I have to because if I didnt, the only other place for that rage to go is inside me. It seems as if in the long run, "God" served some purpose to me after all.
I'm confused as to how you can read all of those verse and only find significance in the last line of each parable.
Confusion seems to be an underlying theme with some. And by some I am not referring to you, only to that of which you refer.
Thankfully even thought I do not share your religious views, you seem to maintain a balance of thought.
Listen,
There are too many questions to answer, and some of them I have already answered in this thread or in other threads.
I am not obligated to answer any questions at all, and no one is sincerely asking questions anyway. All you are doing is trying to argue, even though none of you know what you're talking about.
If you want to remain in ignorance, that's your prerogative. Just be warned that the consequences are eternal damnation.
I will answer questions when and if I have the time, and frankly, I really don't have that much time for people who want to argue.
But for now, the simple answer to almost every question is: The answers are in the Bible.
Not one person here has even attempted to read the Bible. Even the ones who claim to have degrees in Theology. You know absolutely nothing.
Read the Bible.
And secondly, pray for understanding.
And also pray for God to send you a Gospel preacher. There is no salvation without a preacher.
Not one of you has the right attitude at all. It's not about what makes you feel good, it's about the truth.
It's not about pleasing the hearer and pampering their ego, but convicting the hearer of sin and pointing them to Christ.
The issue is not how to live a moral life, or about feeding the poor, or about how to "be a good person."
The issue is sin, condemnation, and redemption, and not foolish questions like, "Can God make a boulder so big he can't lift it?"
Until someone asks me a sincere question about sin, condemnation, and redemption, I doubt I will even respond anymore.
I really just don't have the time.
There are too many questions to answer, and some of them I have already answered in this thread or in other threads.
I am not obligated to answer any questions at all, and no one is sincerely asking questions anyway. All you are doing is trying to argue, even though none of you know what you're talking about.
If you want to remain in ignorance, that's your prerogative. Just be warned that the consequences are eternal damnation.
I will answer questions when and if I have the time, and frankly, I really don't have that much time for people who want to argue.
But for now, the simple answer to almost every question is: The answers are in the Bible.
Not one person here has even attempted to read the Bible. Even the ones who claim to have degrees in Theology. You know absolutely nothing.
Read the Bible.
And secondly, pray for understanding.
And also pray for God to send you a Gospel preacher. There is no salvation without a preacher.
Not one of you has the right attitude at all. It's not about what makes you feel good, it's about the truth.
It's not about pleasing the hearer and pampering their ego, but convicting the hearer of sin and pointing them to Christ.
The issue is not how to live a moral life, or about feeding the poor, or about how to "be a good person."
The issue is sin, condemnation, and redemption, and not foolish questions like, "Can God make a boulder so big he can't lift it?"
Until someone asks me a sincere question about sin, condemnation, and redemption, I doubt I will even respond anymore.
I really just don't have the time.
We're only arguing because God is making us argue with you. If I had freewill, I'm sure I would agree with you...
Oh, did we inconveniece you? Did we not fall over ourselves to hang on your every word and make "you feel good" about yourself. Way to do God's work at your leisure and then at your earliest convenience disappear as if you had accomplished something, which as you said earlier is your own sinful nature to spread blasphemy since you cannot possibly choose to do good.
Seriously, go fuck yourself. I'm usually respectful of a person's beliefs, but I am very certain that you are neither sincere nor in the right to anything you claim.
Argument for argument's sake is only useful for those who wish to sharpen their mental acuity and possibly learn something along the way. I think what is going on here is not that people are arguing for the sake of arguing. I think people are expressing disagreement.
I am disagreeing with your rejection of 90% of what is in the New Testament. I think you have to come to terms with the fact that you are not interested in Christ's message. You are only interested in avoiding hell. This is reflected in your lack of serenity and maturity in speech. Your lack of maturity is reflected in your inability to engage with what others say in a constructive way. Saying "your ignorant" and running away indicates to me that you cannot discuss any Scriptural subject, besides the very narrow topic you have chosen to champion. This inability is either because you are not actually interested in the Scriptures, or because you are having an immature tantrum towards whoever refuses to enter into your extremely narrow reading of Scripture.
Faith is necessary for salvation (some qualifications noted), but there is so much more in the Scriptures for those who already have faith, indicating that faith is only the beginning of the Christian life and of Salvation. St Paul and St John are adamant that Charity is the perfection of faith - and this charity is worked out in a multitude of ways. @SovereignGrace if you ever wish to move on beyond the most basic and simple starting point of the Christian life; that is, if you ever develop an interest in, or love for Christ and His Scriptures, we can start having a discussion. You are not interested in Christ, or His ways - your are only interested in avoiding hell, which while a very sensible sentiment, cannot be the primary aim of a Christian. A Christian is not characterised by fleeing in fear; but by moving forward in peace and love towards Christ.
You never DID answer my sincere question!
If we have NO free will...and every action is because God makes it so....then how can He punish us when we sin?
That make ZERO sense.
And hmmm....kind of sucks when people don't show you respect doesn't it?
Next time you go on a forum in an attempt to preach what YOU see as the proper interpretation of the Bible...try showing respect to other's and their beliefs...perhaps you may even sway someone to believe the same way.
Since day ONE...you have been disrespectful of everyone's beliefs and thoughts.
Sorry, but in the real world (not that the forum is really the real world, but I think you can figure it out) people don't like being talked down to...some other people on here have that same problem as well.
I second what @Matt3737 said...just leave if you cannot be less pretentious and more respectful.
"I once knew a man who thought he was above me...and he was, until he had that thought." Elbert Hubbard
“The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell” Simone Weil
I feel there are verses people would rather not hear. I think once a person gets grounded in Christ, they will speak of different verses as they learn the message of Christ.
HOWEVER: the letters that show Christ said things on the level of Hell and damnation. Matthew comes to mind. Christians are at different levels of understanding and studying. When SG came in for a landing, he was bringing the old Southern Baptist hellfire and damnation speech. I've heard it, as I used to be a Southern Baptist, but I don't know how they are preaching decades later. Matthew 25 says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I like the way Jesus spoke right after this:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Note the difference in the righteous and those that were unrighteous; the way they answer. "When did we do that?" as opposed to "When did we NOT do that?" Shows a difference in temperament, doesn't it? The unrighteous would not accept being told they had not done something, knowing they had not. The righteous did not claim to have done anything.
Note Jesus said there were those that would not be with Him in eternity. For all have sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God. All we like sheep have gone astray. We have turned every one to our own way. I have been turned from Matthew to Isaiah 53. Why?
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
I feel the nudging in my heart to share how we should take this man seriously.
Please give Sovereign Grace a break.
HOWEVER: the letters that show Christ said things on the level of Hell and damnation. Matthew comes to mind. Christians are at different levels of understanding and studying. When SG came in for a landing, he was bringing the old Southern Baptist hellfire and damnation speech. I've heard it, as I used to be a Southern Baptist, but I don't know how they are preaching decades later. Matthew 25 says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I like the way Jesus spoke right after this:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Note the difference in the righteous and those that were unrighteous; the way they answer. "When did we do that?" as opposed to "When did we NOT do that?" Shows a difference in temperament, doesn't it? The unrighteous would not accept being told they had not done something, knowing they had not. The righteous did not claim to have done anything.
Note Jesus said there were those that would not be with Him in eternity. For all have sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God. All we like sheep have gone astray. We have turned every one to our own way. I have been turned from Matthew to Isaiah 53. Why?
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
I feel the nudging in my heart to share how we should take this man seriously.
Please give Sovereign Grace a break.
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