What Does It Take For God To Save A Sinner?

[Lark]

This does make sense although it is not practical, and to me removes the hokey notion of God's Love letter to humanity. However I do like it because it elevates Traditions role and the Churches to its rightful places as above the bible.

*sings*

Dude!! Dude!! Dude!! Dude - in - tha - coat!!

 

[Barnabas]

Getting back to the original question. I think the only way a sinner can be saved is to be burnt at a stake.

Augustine believed in the baptism of Blood which was the tradition that any man or women martyred for the christian faith was considered a baptized believer and brought into heaven upon their death.... so maybe.

 

[j654dgj7]

I just have to get this off of my chest.

The main reason that I hate fundamentalists and people who hijack religions is that our culture is scared of them. We're too scared to stand up to them and tell them that we all have to be here and that no one should get special treatment because of their sensitivities. Look at how culture has been impacted by fundamentalist Christian people. The MPAA was created to protect strict Christian families from having their children hear words like "doody" and "shit", all the while applauding big budget action movies with hundreds of people dying in less than two hours. Decency laws have been passed to please extremists. The FCC control and regulate everything in the public hemisphere, and it is crushing the development of entertainment, news and every other aspect of culture. Do you want to know the real truth why "politicians are trying to dumb us down"? It's not fluoride or "mind-control", it's pandering to very few people who just happen to be very vocal, rich and influential.

Culturally no one has stood up to these people, and it's making me sick. Extremists are trying to shut down culture in favor of big, dumb companies that churn out the same garbage that they have been making for the last three decades. Life isn't safe, life isn't predictable, and life only gets lamer if we allow extremist fundamentalists to dictate our culture and minds.

 

[Average]

We don't need a saviour we need a good government.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Its interesting that there's a real live evangelist on the forum because it illustrates the mess of contradictions that modern protestant evangelism is.

On the one hand its stated repeatedly that the deal is done, Jesus has died and that his sacrifice has meant salvation, there is nothing that anyone living now can do to warrant salvation and also that this salvation does not extend to everyone, then there's a message that there's something sinners have got to do to warrant saving? It doesnt take too much of a philosophical heavy weight or deep thinker to see the error there, its either the one or the other, its a pretty dichotomous arrangement.

So what's really at hand is the problem that if Jesus died for an elect how do you ensure you're part of the elect? Well the answer is you dont.

Early protestants knew this too and settled on the whole "richest man in the cemetary" idea, that if you worked hard, saved, led an abstemonious lifestyle, perished a wealthy individual then the wealth could be considered a sign of God's favour and you were one of the elect. It didnt seem to trouble anyone too much this was precisely the sort of thinking which Jesus challenged the whole time he was alive in all of his ministry in both word and deed.

Salvation is either an unconditional gift from God or its not. Its not qualified by where you hang your hat on sundays or which later day, because they are all later day, preacher or reformer or scriptural idollator minister you're dead set upon.

Now the sort of God who has an elect, on any basis ethnocentric or economic or ideological, who favours the rich with riches, begins the suffering of others in this life with poverty as an automatic prefiguring of eternal suffering and relies upon something so capricious, perfidious and mendacious as literature manufactured by human beings to determine eternal fate is no God at all. Its as base an idea as any from the pantheon of greek and roman mythology and definitely foreign to Jesus Christ.

I think the dichotomy between free will and salvation of the type expounded by [MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION] and other protestants of his ilk is a false one. It is predicated upon a protestant dogma which considers the human will to have been corrupted beyond being able to do anything good, or meritorious before God. This doctrine is based on the assumption that a good creation can be destroyed, or damaged beyond being capable of good.

Good theology is about understanding apparent dichotomies within the view that God is good and His works are good; and that He arranges all things well.

So, while our free will is not an absolute freedom to choose, or create whatever options we wish, it is free to choose between options which present themselves, including options which are good and meritorious before God. Indeed, the last doctrinal verse of the entire New Testament bears this out:

"The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let him who hears say, "Come." And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price." (Rev22:17)/

 

[j654dgj7]

I think the dichotomy between free will and salvation of the type expounded by [MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION] and other protestants of his ilk is a false one. It is predicated upon a protestant dogma which considers the human will to have been corrupted beyond being able to do anything good, or meritorious before God. This doctrine is based on the assumption that a good creation can be destroyed, or damaged beyond being capable of good.

Ugh, it hurt my heart when you put me in a group with those types.

The point of original sin is to show that we are all sinners in the eyes of God. Jesus taught us that those who were following the book too closely were not doing it right (see: good samaritan). It's just about all of us being so impure to God that we're unable to be good in God's eyes. Jesus saved all of us eventually.

 

[Skarekrow]

So, while our free will is not an absolute freedom to choose, or create whatever options we wish, it is free to choose between options which present themselves, including options which are good and meritorious before God. Indeed, the last doctrinal verse of the entire New Testament bears this out:

"The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let him who hears say, "Come." And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price." (Rev22:17)/

I just brought this up on another thread…
Do we have “free will” when our choices are limited to the choices presented by God?
And then….if we choose to sin…then it was only because that “choice” was one that God gave us.
Wasn’t it then God’s choice for us to sin?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Ugh, it hurt my heart when you put me in a group with those types.

The point of original sin is to show that we are all sinners in the eyes of God. Jesus taught us that those who were following the book too closely were not doing it right (see: good samaritan). It's just about all of us being so impure to God that we're unable to be good in God's eyes. Jesus saved all of us eventually.

When God creates, he does not create anything bad - this is reflective of both his infinite goodness and infinite wisdom. However, he obviously did create creatures which are capable of bad. One could say that if he did not create intelligent creatures capable of rejecting him, it would be a more perfect universe. But a universe populated with inanimate objects, plants and lower animals would be less perfect than one inhabited by free willed intelligent beings.

A distinction must be made between the good work of God and the sinful work of intelligent beings. This distinction is between the sin and the sinner, giving rise to the proverb/adage: hate the sin, love the sinner. God came to wash away sins, whereas at one time, never to be repeated, he washed away sinners as well.

I just brought this up on another thread…
Do we have “free will” when our choices are limited to the choices presented by God?
And then….if we choose to sin…then it was only because that “choice” was one that God gave us.
Wasn’t it then God’s choice for us to sin?

If we did not have a choice between different grades of good things, could we truly be said to love anything? Common wisdom exhorts parents to give their children limited liberty so that they can learn to internalise and make their own a sense of right and wrong; and of love. Adam and Eve were given the ability to choose. If they had chosen to follow the one precept, they would have made God and paradise their own. But instead they did not claim this for themselves.

One can debate the wisdom of letting someone fall; but once fallen, there is little doubt that a forgiving hand was extended to help raise them up - again offered freely, without constraint. If salvation were imposed, so that all went to heaven, whether they chose to or not, would it not seem that this would contradict the freedom given to original creatures to accept, or reject - to make their own what they are given/offered? Is this not saying that the universe would be better off without intelligent creatures capable of choosing?

The gift of intellect and will imply the gift of a certain power - the power of choice. What power has any meaning, if it cannot be exercised - especially in respect of the most important things subject to that power: one's own fate.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Ok, how can anyone claim to know what "God" is, what he wants etc...

God is apparently the most intelligent thing there is. It must have known that giving words (still not sure how this happened) to man would result in them ultimately being corrupted by man.

 

[SovereignGrace]

When God creates, he does not create anything bad - this is reflective of both his infinite goodness and infinite wisdom. However, he obviously did create creatures which are capable of bad. One could say that if he did not create intelligent creatures capable of rejecting him, it would be a more perfect universe. But a universe populated with inanimate objects, plants and lower animals would be less perfect than one inhabited by free willed intelligent beings.

A distinction must be made between the good work of God and the sinful work of intelligent beings. This distinction is between the sin and the sinner, giving rise to the proverb/adage: hate the sin, love the sinner. God came to wash away sins, whereas at one time, never to be repeated, he washed away sinners as well.



If we did not have a choice between different grades of good things, could we truly be said to love anything? Common wisdom exhorts parents to give their children limited liberty so that they can learn to internalise and make their own a sense of right and wrong; and of love. Adam and Eve were given the ability to choose. If they had chosen to follow the one precept, they would have made God and paradise their own. But instead they did not claim this for themselves.

One can debate the wisdom of letting someone fall; but once fallen, there is little doubt that a forgiving hand was extended to help raise them up - again offered freely, without constraint. If salvation were imposed, so that all went to heaven, whether they chose to or not, would it not seem that this would contradict the freedom given to original creatures to accept, or reject - to make their own what they are given/offered? Is this not saying that the universe would be better off without intelligent creatures capable of choosing?

The gift of intellect and will imply the gift of a certain power - the power of choice. What power has any meaning, if it cannot be exercised - especially in respect of the most important things subject to that power: one's own fate.

This is nonsense. Free-will is not the issue.

The fact is, GOD is in control. GOD sets the parameters of existence.

You wouldn't even EXIST without God's creating and sustaining you.

So to speak of your own "free-will" is utterly non-sensical. GOD is the only one with a free will.

The will of Man is to SIN and REBEL. That's ALL it is capable of doing.

You will never be saved until you realize this fact.

Without regeneration, an act of God performed on the sinner, that person is dead in sin, and all he does is sin.

One must be "raised from the dead", and "born again" from above, or he cannot know or please God.

It is only by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, that a sinner can be reconciled to God.

It is not in the NATURE of Man to believe or obey God. It's altogether a spiritual gift.


If salvation were dependent on the will of Man, then not one soul would be saved.

The GOOD NEWS is that Christ has ACCOMPLISHED salvation, and he GIVES it to whomever he will.

And all that the Father gives to him WILL come to him and be saved.

The Lord Jesus said, in John 10:27-30 :

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;

and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

I and My Father are one.”



Listen,

The answers are all in the Scriptures.

All of you should stop guessing, and just read the Scriptures.

And pray that God would point you to a true Gospel preacher.

Perhaps God, in his grace, will give you understanding. But it won't happen apart from the preaching of the Gospel.

If anyone is interested, I can help.

I can point you to good sermons, and possibly to good churches in your area.

Just PM me or write on my wall.

I'm not here to condemn, but to point you to CHRIST.

 

[Matt3737]

So to speak of your own "free-will" is utterly non-sensical. GOD is the only one with a free will.

The will of Man is to SIN and REBEL. That's ALL it is capable of doing.

Are you implying that God purposefully designed us to be sinful?

You say that our 'will' is utterly non-sensical, and then in the very next sentence begin with the subject of that very same will. I think maybe you are non-sensical.

 

[say what]

This is nonsense. Free-will is not the issue.

The fact is, GOD is in control. GOD sets the parameters of existence.

You wouldn't even EXIST without God's creating and sustaining you.

So to speak of your own "free-will" is utterly non-sensical. GOD is the only one with a free will.

The will of Man is to SIN and REBEL. That's ALL it is capable of doing.

You will never be saved until you realize this fact.

Without regeneration, an act of God performed on the sinner, that person is dead in sin, and all he does is sin.

One must be "raised from the dead", and "born again" from above, or he cannot know or please God.

It is only by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, that a sinner can be reconciled to God.

It is not in the NATURE of Man to believe or obey God. It's altogether a spiritual gift.

Listen,

The answers are all in the Scriptures.

All of you should stop guessing, and just read the Scriptures.

And pray that God would point you to a true Gospel preacher.

Perhaps God, in his grace, will give you understanding. But it won't happen apart from the preaching of the Gospel.

If anyone is interested, I can help.

I can point you to good sermons, and possibly to good churches in your area.

Just PM me or write on my wall.

I'm not here to condemn, but to point you to CHRIST.

I just find it hard to believe we don't have some aspect of free will. What is the point of God creating man if God determines all our actions and outcomes? If this is the case, then how can man actually sin? Wouldn't God make it so we don't sin? If we do sin, is that God's will?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Are you implying that God purposefully designed us to be sinful?

You say that our 'will' is utterly non-sensical, and then in the very next sentence begin with the subject of that very same will. I think maybe you are non-sensical.

I didn't say that our will is non-sensical. I said to speak of "free-will" is nonsensical, because we don't have one.

Read it again.

 

[Matt3737]

I didn't say that our will is non-sensical. I said to speak of "free-will" is nonsensical, because we don't have one.

Read it again.

You are right good sir. Your attempts at "speaking" about free-will are indeed non-sensical. Could you make an actual distinction that isn't non-sense or shall I leave being unenlightened?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I just find it hard to believe we don't have some aspect of free will. What is the point of God creating man if God determines all our actions and outcomes? If this is the case, then how can man actually sin? Wouldn't God make it so we don't sin? If we do sin, is that God's will?

God created all things for his own glory.

Man and his interests are to be subordinate to God.

And even the Fall of Man was for his own glory, despite the false doctrine of "Man's free will."

You are right good sir. Your attempts at "speaking" about free-will are indeed non-sensical. Could you make an actual distinction that isn't non-sense or shall I leave being unenlightened?

It's not free because it's enslaved to sin.

All it can do is sin, and nothing else.

Now, some might think that still implies free will, because it "chooses" to sin.

But choice implies some other option. And the fact is, the will of Man is to do nothing but sin.

It's just like a dog is a dog, and a cat is a cat. Our NATURE is nothing but sin.

 

[Matt3737]

It's not free because it's enslaved to sin.

All it can do is sin, and nothing else.

Now, some might think that still implies free will, because it "chooses" to sin.

But choice implies some other option. And the fact is, the will of Man is to do nothing but sin.

It's just like a dog is a dog, and a cat is a cat. Our NATURE is nothing but sin.

So, then going back to the first question I asked you. You are, in fact, claiming that God purposefully designed and created us to be sinners?

 

[say what]

God created all things for his own glory.

Man and his interests are to be subordinate to God.



It's not free because it's enslaved to sin.

All it can do is sin, and nothing else.

Now, some might think that still implies free will, because it "chooses" to sin.

But choice implies some other option. And the fact is, the will of Man is to do nothing but sin.

It's just like a dog is a dog, and a cat is a cat. Our NATURE is nothing but sin.

I second what [MENTION=4822]Matt3737[/MENTION] said. If we have no free will, then if we said, it's an act of God if we sin...if God makes us sin, then is it sin?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

This is nonsense. Free-will is not the issue.

The fact is, GOD is in control. GOD sets the parameters of existence.

You wouldn't even EXIST without God's creating and sustaining you.

So to speak of your own "free-will" is utterly non-sensical. GOD is the only one with a free will.

The will of Man is to SIN and REBEL. That's ALL it is capable of doing.

You will never be saved until you realize this fact.

Without regeneration, an act of God performed on the sinner, that person is dead in sin, and all he does is sin.

One must be "raised from the dead", and "born again" from above, or he cannot know or please God.

It is only by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, that a sinner can be reconciled to God.

It is not in the NATURE of Man to believe or obey God. It's altogether a spiritual gift.


If salvation were dependent on the will of Man, then not one soul would be saved.

The GOOD NEWS is that Christ has ACCOMPLISHED salvation, and he GIVES it to whomever he will.

And all that the Father gives to him WILL come to him and be saved.

The Lord Jesus said, in John 10:27-30 :

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;

and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

I and My Father are one.”



Listen,

The answers are all in the Scriptures.

All of you should stop guessing, and just read the Scriptures.

And pray that God would point you to a true Gospel preacher.

Perhaps God, in his grace, will give you understanding. But it won't happen apart from the preaching of the Gospel.

If anyone is interested, I can help.

I can point you to good sermons, and possibly to good churches in your area.

Just PM me or write on my wall.

I'm not here to condemn, but to point you to CHRIST.

You cling to your invented "dogma" so doggedly that I cannot even begin to imagine how you might have to distort Matthew 25, to make it fit into your fabricated world-view:

Matthew Chapter 25 1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them; 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those maidens rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise replied, ‘Perhaps there will not be enough for us and for you; go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other maidens came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he replied, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

14 “For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; 15 to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more. 17 So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’

31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”



I cringe to think that you might read the parable to mean literal money, rather than the gifts of God (graces), which can be increased through one's activity, or neglected through inactivity.

What does it mean to you, when Our Lord says to those who increase the grace in themselves, "Well done, good and faithful servant" - those who increase grace and serve Him by feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, visiting captives, etc.?

 

[Shaqie]

There is a much better question here in place, but should I even place it?

 

[Shaqie]

There is a much better question here in place, but should I even place it?

It is [MENTION=731]the[/MENTION] 's fault.

Is there even a God? Like, Chriestian God? Is the whole sinner idea a creation from the people who preached Christianity back in the days?

I speak with a clear mind BTW, questioning all, even my beliefs!