How can we think at free will if we don't have one? Does God want us to think at free will? Why would He want that?
What Does It Take For God To Save A Sinner?
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
- Start date
Shaqie
The Grandmaster in Disguise
Shaqie
The Grandmaster in Disguise
That is wonderful, still, I find the topics of God to be a bit useless, besides for argumentative training of sort. By itself God, to be more precise, Christian God, to be an unidentifiable object, that could or could not be identified. You can identify a chair in a room simply by stating that it is in an closed in object that we know to be a room, but the universe itself is potentially infinite. Could you identify him in that place, even with its possible multidimensional property? A better question arrives here again, what is God? Is there a universal description of it? How can you talk about something, that cannot be even described accurately and sensibly? I can understand that the idea of God had a large influence over society, but yet, his image still appears to be fuzzy.
PS: I should have gone to sleep!
“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”
C.S. Lewis
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”
C.S. Lewis
You seem to have missed the whole point of that chapter.
It's talking about the terrible fate of those who have no faith in Christ.
I strongly recommend that you read it again.
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How free can your will possibly be if GOD created you, sustains you, determines how long you live, what your abilities are, when you die, etc. etc.?
Furthermore, the nature of mankind is totally bent on evil. Man will not and can not choose the good. He is totally enslaved to evil.
When are you going to realize that?
Repentance is confessing to God that you are nothing but sin. So, until you realize you're nothing but sin, you have not even begun to repent. And that means that God has not even BEGUN a work in you.
In other words, you are lost, and you need to be saved.
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C.S Lewis has ZERO authority.
The Word of God says men are nothing but sin, and have no will or ability to choose the good.
Read Romans 3, for starters.
If all you take from that passage is the condemnation if sinners, then you need to reread that verse. Jesus is talking to his disciples who are already know that faith in Christ is there hope of Salvation, the parables are an explanation of what it means to follow Jesus. In the case of the maidens' it means always being prepared for the return of Christ(which fits with the last verses of chapter 24 where Jesus talks about his return being like that of Master who returns early from work to find his servant slacking.) The verses about the talents are about how the Gospel and the kingdom of Heaven are not something to be sat and horded but instead meant to be used and expanded and the parable of the King and his servants are an explanation of what expanding that Kingdom looks like. It follows are really simple structure.
1. You need to Follow me
2. This is what it means to Follow me
3. This is how you follow me
It's also important to note that When Jesus starts talking in parable 9 times out of 10 he opens up with "The Kingdom of Heaven is like," which sets the subject of the story out, it's not about the believers, hell or free will, Jesus is trying to give us insight into what his kingdom looks like and how you get there finishing it off what looks like to be outside of that Kingdom(entirely unpleasant, regardless of whether you think of Hell as fire, black loneliness or incredible cold it will be the worst thing you could ever possibly experience).
Hell is an after thought in this chapter, not that it isn't important but that's not even close to the focus.
If you don't see chapter 25 as a repeated warning, you have no understanding of what you are reading.
The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are totally opposed to the Kingdom of Darkness. There is no in-between ground, and in this chapter, the Lord gives repeated warnings about what will happen to those outside the Kingdom of God.
In the first parable, the unwise virgins are not allowed into the wedding party. That's a picture of being left out of heaven.
And if that wasn't obvious enough, in the next parable, there is casting out into "outer darkness", and "weeping and gnashing of teeth". Again, a picture of condemnation.
But if THAT wasn't obvious enough either, the Lord is VERY EXPLICIT in the following verses. Surely you understand what he's talking about when he says:
"‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; (verse 41).
And this: "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (verse 46)
I'm not sure how you can miss these things.
You are utterly lost and confused.
I have a problem with your argumentation.
It seems to me I can not realise that I have not free will. To realise something free will is necessary...free will is necessary for reason, for thinking.
If were not like I said, everything which you've argued now are just casual effects, not because it has any meaning, but because are the natural movements inside your thoughts...
So my problem is...if I don't have free will and neither I realised i dont have free will...the only possibility is for God to make me realise I don't have free will...so why would God didn't do such a thing already? Moreover, why are you arguing that I should realise i have no will whatsoever....I can not chose wether to realise it or not...everything in my head is a casual chain whithout reason or a free will...somebody or something must realise it for me.
Well if we don't have any ability to chose good, from where do we have the concept of good anyway? If we were born in sin, with no ability to chose good...it should be like sleep, and we would never realised we are not awake...but WE DO KNOW there is good...so I don't think we are in a complete fog, like you say.
[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”
Explain these two verses. What does "all" mean? In the second part of the Romans 5:18, it says that
"by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
Its ALL men unto condemnation, and ALL men into life.
Thye Bible explicitly contradicts your doctrine. It says that Jesus died for the justification of all men, not just a few, like Calvinists like to say. Any thoughts?
How about 1 Timothy 2:4?
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
What is this???
By John McArthur goespel and Bible, God has two wills: a will of desire and a will of decree. He really desires all to be saved, but He doesn’t decree for all to be saved.
So God has two wills mr. John McArthur, huh?
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”
Explain these two verses. What does "all" mean? In the second part of the Romans 5:18, it says that
"by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
Its ALL men unto condemnation, and ALL men into life.
Thye Bible explicitly contradicts your doctrine. It says that Jesus died for the justification of all men, not just a few, like Calvinists like to say. Any thoughts?
How about 1 Timothy 2:4?
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
What is this???
By John McArthur goespel and Bible, God has two wills: a will of desire and a will of decree. He really desires all to be saved, but He doesn’t decree for all to be saved.
So God has two wills mr. John McArthur, huh?
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[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]
I'm curious to know your answer to Matt's question.
How is one to be saved when we are so evil that we cannot even choose to be saved? By your reasoning, there is no salvation nor redemption because we are so "totally enslaved to evil."
You say we have no choice while at the same time ask us to turn to the Bible. Why?
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I read it again - and the content is so plain and open in its meaning, I am left wondering whether your answer to every single passage in the Scripture will always be: "it is about punishment for unbelief", with complete indifference to what is actually said in given passage. [MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION] what is the Great Commandment (love one another as I have loved you) about? Expected answer: about the terrible punishments which await those who do not believe.
You read the Scriptures, but seem to ignore them, except insofar as they support what you want them to support: punishment for unbelief. It is true that this doctrine is very clearly in the Scriptures, but you seem to miss everything else that's in there as well.
If the point of Matthew 25 was about the terrible fate of unbelief, why does Our Lord use three people in His parable - commending two of them, but only condemning one? Moreover, the one who is condemned is the one who knew his master the best, but knowing him better than the other two, failed to act in a way that would be pleasing to him? Is this not a condemnation of those whose faith is deepest, but whose actions are unchanged by that faith? Even if you believed that Our Lord would see no merit in His disciples believing in him, obeying his commandments and following His example, why should Our Lord commend good and faithful servants? Is this to you just empty speak, or usless nattering on the part of Our Lord?
Our Lord then moved away from parables into direct instruction - and that instruction was that those who practiced charity towards their neighbour would be counted as having practiced charity towards Our Lord; and those who failed to visit, feed, clothe would be punished.
* How do you equate the activities Our Lord commends: visiting, feeding, clothing others with the distinct act of belief?
* Please explain how you come to conclude that Matthew is principally about faith and punishment.
* Is Matthew 25, to you, not in any way about the commendation about the faithful servants (whose faithfulness is measured in respect of their activity to increase the gifts left with them); or about the beatitude which awaits those who practice charity towards their needy neighbour?