What Does It Take For God To Save A Sinner?

[LucyJr]

I didn't say that our will is non-sensical. I said to speak of "free-will" is nonsensical, because we don't have one.

Read it again.

How can we think at free will if we don't have one? Does God want us to think at free will? Why would He want that?

 

[Shaqie]

How can we think at free will if we don't have one? Does God want us to think at free will? Why would He want that?

Why would someone question actions that are by themselves, yet, unidentifiable?

 

[LucyJr]

Why would someone question actions that are by themselves, yet, unidentifiable?

Because someone has options. And having options is the mark of a free will.

 

[Shaqie]

Because someone has options. And having options is the mark of a free will.

That is wonderful, still, I find the topics of God to be a bit useless, besides for argumentative training of sort. By itself God, to be more precise, Christian God, to be an unidentifiable object, that could or could not be identified. You can identify a chair in a room simply by stating that it is in an closed in object that we know to be a room, but the universe itself is potentially infinite. Could you identify him in that place, even with its possible multidimensional property? A better question arrives here again, what is God? Is there a universal description of it? How can you talk about something, that cannot be even described accurately and sensibly? I can understand that the idea of God had a large influence over society, but yet, his image still appears to be fuzzy.

PS: I should have gone to sleep!

 

[LucyJr]

“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”

C.S. Lewis

 

[SovereignGrace]

You cling to your invented "dogma" so doggedly that I cannot even begin to imagine how you might have to distort Matthew 25, to make it fit into your fabricated world-view:

Matthew Chapter 25 1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them; 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those maidens rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise replied, ‘Perhaps there will not be enough for us and for you; go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other maidens came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he replied, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

14 “For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; 15 to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more. 17 So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’

31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”



I cringe to think that you might read the parable to mean literal money, rather than the gifts of God (graces), which can be increased through one's activity, or neglected through inactivity.

What does it mean to you, when Our Lord says to those who increase the grace in themselves, "Well done, good and faithful servant" - those who increase grace and serve Him by feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, visiting captives, etc.?

You seem to have missed the whole point of that chapter.

It's talking about the terrible fate of those who have no faith in Christ.

I strongly recommend that you read it again.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How can we think at free will if we don't have one? Does God want us to think at free will? Why would He want that?

How free can your will possibly be if GOD created you, sustains you, determines how long you live, what your abilities are, when you die, etc. etc.?

Furthermore, the nature of mankind is totally bent on evil. Man will not and can not choose the good. He is totally enslaved to evil.

When are you going to realize that?

Repentance is confessing to God that you are nothing but sin. So, until you realize you're nothing but sin, you have not even begun to repent. And that means that God has not even BEGUN a work in you.

In other words, you are lost, and you need to be saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”

C.S. Lewis

C.S Lewis has ZERO authority.

The Word of God says men are nothing but sin, and have no will or ability to choose the good.

Read Romans 3, for starters.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is wonderful, still, I find the topics of God to be a bit useless, besides for argumentative training of sort. By itself God, to be more precise, Christian God, to be an unidentifiable object, that could or could not be identified. You can identify a chair in a room simply by stating that it is in an closed in object that we know to be a room, but the universe itself is potentially infinite. Could you identify him in that place, even with its possible multidimensional property? A better question arrives here again, what is God? Is there a universal description of it? How can you talk about something, that cannot be even described accurately and sensibly? I can understand that the idea of God had a large influence over society, but yet, his image still appears to be fuzzy.

PS: I should have gone to sleep!

You don't have to guess. The answers are in the Bible.

 

[invisible]

toxic

 

[Barnabas]

You seemed to have missed the whole point of that chapter.

It's talking about the terrible fate of those who have no faith in Christ.

I strongly recommend that you read it again.

If all you take from that passage is the condemnation if sinners, then you need to reread that verse. Jesus is talking to his disciples who are already know that faith in Christ is there hope of Salvation, the parables are an explanation of what it means to follow Jesus. In the case of the maidens' it means always being prepared for the return of Christ(which fits with the last verses of chapter 24 where Jesus talks about his return being like that of Master who returns early from work to find his servant slacking.) The verses about the talents are about how the Gospel and the kingdom of Heaven are not something to be sat and horded but instead meant to be used and expanded and the parable of the King and his servants are an explanation of what expanding that Kingdom looks like. It follows are really simple structure.


1. You need to Follow me

2. This is what it means to Follow me

3. This is how you follow me

It's also important to note that When Jesus starts talking in parable 9 times out of 10 he opens up with "The Kingdom of Heaven is like," which sets the subject of the story out, it's not about the believers, hell or free will, Jesus is trying to give us insight into what his kingdom looks like and how you get there finishing it off what looks like to be outside of that Kingdom(entirely unpleasant, regardless of whether you think of Hell as fire, black loneliness or incredible cold it will be the worst thing you could ever possibly experience).

Hell is an after thought in this chapter, not that it isn't important but that's not even close to the focus.

 

[j654dgj7]

If God was so stoked on the Bible as a finished product, then why'd it wait 3000 years (according to creationism) before it started making people write stuff down?

 

[SovereignGrace]

If all you take from that passage is the condemnation if sinners, then you need to reread that verse. Jesus is talking to his disciples who are already know that faith in Christ is there hope of Salvation, the parables are an explanation of what it means to follow Jesus. In the case of the maidens' it means always being prepared for the return of Christ(which fits with the last verses of chapter 24 where Jesus talks about his return being like that of Master who returns early from work to find his servant slacking.) The verses about the talents are about how the Gospel and the kingdom of Heaven are not something to be sat and horded but instead meant to be used and expanded and the parable of the King and his servants are an explanation of what expanding that Kingdom looks like. It follows are really simple structure.


1. You need to Follow me

2. This is what it means to Follow me

3. This is how you follow me

It's also important to note that When Jesus starts talking in parable 9 times out of 10 he opens up with "The Kingdom of Heaven is like," which sets the subject of the story out, it's not about the believers, hell or free will, Jesus is trying to give us insight into what his kingdom looks like and how you get there finishing it off what looks like to be outside of that Kingdom(entirely unpleasant, regardless of whether you think of Hell as fire, black loneliness or incredible cold it will be the worst thing you could ever possibly experience).

Hell is an after thought in this chapter, not that it isn't important but that's not even close to the focus.

If you don't see chapter 25 as a repeated warning, you have no understanding of what you are reading.

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are totally opposed to the Kingdom of Darkness. There is no in-between ground, and in this chapter, the Lord gives repeated warnings about what will happen to those outside the Kingdom of God.

In the first parable, the unwise virgins are not allowed into the wedding party. That's a picture of being left out of heaven.

And if that wasn't obvious enough, in the next parable, there is casting out into "outer darkness", and "weeping and gnashing of teeth". Again, a picture of condemnation.

But if THAT wasn't obvious enough either, the Lord is VERY EXPLICIT in the following verses. Surely you understand what he's talking about when he says:
"‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; (verse 41).
And this: "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (verse 46)

I'm not sure how you can miss these things.

You are utterly lost and confused.

 

[LucyJr]

How free can your will possibly be if GOD created you, sustains you, determines how long you live, what your abilities are, when you die, etc. etc.?

Furthermore, the nature of mankind is totally bent on evil. Man will not and can not choose the good. He is totally enslaved to evil.

When are you going to realize that?

Repentance is confessing to God that you are nothing but sin. So, until you realize you're nothing but sin, you have not even begun to repent. And that means that God has not even BEGUN a work in you.

In other words, you are lost, and you need to be saved.

I have a problem with your argumentation.
It seems to me I can not realise that I have not free will. To realise something free will is necessary...free will is necessary for reason, for thinking.
If were not like I said, everything which you've argued now are just casual effects, not because it has any meaning, but because are the natural movements inside your thoughts...
So my problem is...if I don't have free will and neither I realised i dont have free will...the only possibility is for God to make me realise I don't have free will...so why would God didn't do such a thing already? Moreover, why are you arguing that I should realise i have no will whatsoever....I can not chose wether to realise it or not...everything in my head is a casual chain whithout reason or a free will...somebody or something must realise it for me.

 

[LucyJr]

C.S Lewis has ZERO authority.

The Word of God says men are nothing but sin, and have no will or ability to choose the good.

Read Romans 3, for starters.

Well if we don't have any ability to chose good, from where do we have the concept of good anyway? If we were born in sin, with no ability to chose good...it should be like sleep, and we would never realised we are not awake...but WE DO KNOW there is good...so I don't think we are in a complete fog, like you say.

 

[Lark]

You don't have to guess. The answers are in the Bible.

Depending on what one you read you've got different answers.

 

[LucyJr]

[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

Explain these two verses. What does "all" mean? In the second part of the Romans 5:18, it says that
"by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Its ALL men unto condemnation, and ALL men into life.

Thye Bible explicitly contradicts your doctrine. It says that Jesus died for the justification of all men, not just a few, like Calvinists like to say. Any thoughts?

How about 1 Timothy 2:4?

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

What is this???
By John McArthur goespel and Bible, God has two wills: a will of desire and a will of decree. He really desires all to be saved, but He doesn’t decree for all to be saved.

So God has two wills mr. John McArthur, huh?

 

[say what]

So, then going back to the first question I asked you. You are, in fact, claiming that God purposefully designed and created us to be sinners?

[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]


I'm curious to know your answer to Matt's question.

 

[Matt3737]

Furthermore, the nature of mankind is totally bent on evil. Man will not and can not choose the good. He is totally enslaved to evil.
In other words, you are lost, and you need to be saved.

The Word of God says men are nothing but sin, and have no will or ability to choose the good.

How is one to be saved when we are so evil that we cannot even choose to be saved? By your reasoning, there is no salvation nor redemption because we are so "totally enslaved to evil."

You say we have no choice while at the same time ask us to turn to the Bible. Why?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

You seem to have missed the whole point of that chapter.

It's talking about the terrible fate of those who have no faith in Christ.

I strongly recommend that you read it again.

I read it again - and the content is so plain and open in its meaning, I am left wondering whether your answer to every single passage in the Scripture will always be: "it is about punishment for unbelief", with complete indifference to what is actually said in given passage. [MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION] what is the Great Commandment (love one another as I have loved you) about? Expected answer: about the terrible punishments which await those who do not believe.

You read the Scriptures, but seem to ignore them, except insofar as they support what you want them to support: punishment for unbelief. It is true that this doctrine is very clearly in the Scriptures, but you seem to miss everything else that's in there as well.

If the point of Matthew 25 was about the terrible fate of unbelief, why does Our Lord use three people in His parable - commending two of them, but only condemning one? Moreover, the one who is condemned is the one who knew his master the best, but knowing him better than the other two, failed to act in a way that would be pleasing to him? Is this not a condemnation of those whose faith is deepest, but whose actions are unchanged by that faith? Even if you believed that Our Lord would see no merit in His disciples believing in him, obeying his commandments and following His example, why should Our Lord commend good and faithful servants? Is this to you just empty speak, or usless nattering on the part of Our Lord?

Our Lord then moved away from parables into direct instruction - and that instruction was that those who practiced charity towards their neighbour would be counted as having practiced charity towards Our Lord; and those who failed to visit, feed, clothe would be punished.

* How do you equate the activities Our Lord commends: visiting, feeding, clothing others with the distinct act of belief?
* Please explain how you come to conclude that Matthew is principally about faith and punishment.
* Is Matthew 25, to you, not in any way about the commendation about the faithful servants (whose faithfulness is measured in respect of their activity to increase the gifts left with them); or about the beatitude which awaits those who practice charity towards their needy neighbour?