Trifoilum
find wisdom, build hope.
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*chimes in*
J is also:
"I want to have fun! *goes to have FUN*"
while P is also
"I want to have fun, but should I...?"
really, both have their fun sides.
What Does Te Look Like?
- Thread starter sassafras
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J is also:
"I want to have fun! *goes to have FUN*"
while P is also
"I want to have fun, but should I...?"
really, both have their fun sides.
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You are going to need to get in touch with reality at some point.
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What makes you assume I'm not?
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The things you say.
Razare
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INTJ's have Fe as their trickster function. You perceive that function the same way we perceive your Te function.
Now, it isn't always bad. I might find a Te user likable just because I think they're good with humor; if they're actually trying to use humor.
When Te is used seriously, though, I usually am repelled by it. My ISTJ step-father would boss me around as a kid, "Do this, Do that..." I run from dominant and axillary Te users because they're always bossy. I have never met an INTJ, though. I might get along with one, because I generally do in an online environment, so I know our minds are compatible.
Also, an INTJ would likely not perceive my Fe as that tricky. You see, around one, I would probably be relying more on Ni and Ti, using Fe to articulate my Ti. When we use Ti articulated with Fe, it really stunts our emotional expressiveness. You may think this sounds like Te use, since emotions are stunted, but it's not. There will be certain accentuations in our speech. We use Fe to be convincing and make our points.
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Nixie
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Very astute in many ways. I used to hang around the INTJ forum but the people came across as very mean. I know the Te is auxilliary so I can't imagine what it would be like dominant. I think really dominant logic is cold. It doesn't understand the warmth of feeling and caring. My Te comes across as very "if I don't believe it is important or care, I don't bother". I usually try and temper this with the understanding that many of the things that get tossed in my "disregard" pile are important to others. As I have gotten older I have become a lot less judgemental of others. My Te also comes across as being a very fast, accurate and good problem solver. It makes me able to run thru many different strategies and scenerios to come up with good plans and ways to implement them. The problem is trying to explain that process or how I got those answers to others (Ni).
Nixie
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Very astute in many ways. I used to hang around the INTJ forum but the people came across as very mean. I know the Te is auxilliary so I can't imagine what it would be like dominant. I think really dominant logic is cold. It doesn't understand the warmth of feeling and caring. My Te comes across as very "if I don't believe it is important or care, I don't bother". I usually try and temper this with the understanding that many of the things that get tossed in my "disregard" pile are important to others. As I have gotten older I have become a lot less judgemental of others. My Te also comes across as being a very fast, accurate and good problem solver. It makes me able to run thru many different strategies and scenerios to come up with good plans and ways to implement them. The problem is trying to explain that process or how I got those answers to others (Ni).
Sorry hit that button twice.
TinyBubbles
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A response of substance. Something that tells me the other person isn't just itching for the chance to depart, or has even listened. To make it clear I would only offer that kind of response if I was really bored of the other person or wasn't listening in the first place. To me, it feels like a palm off and I feel devalued in that moment.
I'm not sure it's my Te that makes me organised I think it's my J which in my case has reached epic proportions of the ocd kind. My J can't stand things hanging in the balance. It needs to push for a conclusion one way or the other. So no, my shoes definately can not sit in the middle of the loungeroom where I kicked them off, they must go on the shoe rack before I sit down. If I've finished cooking I must 'finish' the kitchen by cleaning before I leave that room. I must leave the house by doing things in a certain order (checklisting so I know everything's done) therefore my keys must go on the key hook and nowhere else so that my checklist is not disturbed. Are you getting a sense of the hell I exist in? Its not so much I think organising is fun, its a compulsion to avoid disruption which is the root of it.
Last minute plan changes can be almost suicidal moments for me. Every P friend I had, has been let go of because they are so stress inducing in my life. The only place I can handle that chaos is oddly at work but that's because last minute swaps are part of the nature of my work and I expect them and plan accordingly. It's the real surprises that cut 6 years off my life in that moment. I'm so glad no-one has thrown me a surprise party in years because I fear I might grab the cake knife and stab someone.
Thankyou for elaborating, I've heard similar statements from NTJ's in the past so I find this quite interesting. I also question the motives behind people's words at times, because it's true, not everyone who says nice things is actually a nice person, but more often than not I give people the benefit of the doubt - not because it's logical per se (usually), but because I guess I want to trust them. Deep down, I want to believe that people are good, and since I already find it extraordinarily hard to trust people completely I tend to feed that belief, naive though it may be, rather than intentionally de-structure it. Who knows if that's the right thing to do though.
Your OCD-like compulsion to organize sounds extremely stressful, I'm sorry you have to go through that. I'm almost the complete opposite; too much organizing makes me feel trapped and tends to take away from my ability to improvise. Out of respect to the people around me I do make an effort (and work/school would be impossible without some measure of it) but naturally I'm quite spontaneous. Would it be accurate to say NTJ's value reliability and efficiency in others more than most?
Actually I think you'll find the bossy comes from the ST combination. S's really care about the process and how, so they are reluctant to allow others to find their own methods. Think my way is the right way, just do it my way and you will get it right. NT's are a lot more flexible than that and I've not met an NT that was ever bossy. INT's in particular don't even want to be in the leadership role most of the time, we have to be forced into it. As an intuitive I instinctively know that everyone needs to find their own way, what's efficient and effective for me won't necessarily work for someone else because people have to use the traits they have to best advantage. I'm also not hung up on the particular's of processes. I just see the end result and if you can get there in your own way then that's good enough for me. I will only direct someone if they are ineffectual and even then I go about it in a fairly roundabout way.
You are right about Fe being my trickster function. When I tell jokes I never do so with a poker face. I am always highly expressive, pretty much making a parody of emotional expression and people get me when I joke around that way. I can't do poker-faced humour because people actually think I'm being serious and am a bitch. Probably because they see the obvious contrast in behaviour when I am in humour mode and can easily see that's not my real persona.
So far I've only met one real life INFJ and to be honest he was the pinnacle of what I'd call being fake. Say one thing and do another, yet appear very genuine when saying it. He lacked the straight forward honesty that I value a great deal. This is why I take little stock in what people express and simply observe the behaviour instead. I do believe that people don't tell you who they are, they show you. I'm not so sure I'd be in a big hurry to meet another INFJ in the flesh. INFPs are a lot easier for me.
Then you and I are very similar. I always give people a clean slate to begin with and will only ever give up on them once they've really burned me badly. I'm quite inclined to overlook a lot of things until those same things keep repeating themselves, then I have to draw the conclusion that no matter how much I don't want to see this person in this light, they keep proving me wrong. I also naively want to believe in the inherent goodness of everyone and if I just hang in there, this person will show me what a true diamond they are. Sadly I am often disappointed. But perhaps where we differ is that I am rarely inclined to forgiveness. An impression once set in this way is pretty much set in stone. It would take easily twice as much reversal in behaviour to overcome it and even then I would always feel I couldn't completely trust this person.
It's annoying in some respects for sure, but I've managed to find an occupation that makes excellent use of finicky J. Most days my incessant need to organise and follow through is assuaged through work success. There is a neverending stream of J tasks in my job that are highly repetitive with specific measurable, attainable goals at the end of each task which is what J is excellent at. And my T is satisfied even in that repetition by mining for minute efficiency breaks that make my job easier. I also work in a variable network which is very T satsifying. So I've found the perfect job for me.
In my occupation there is a fairly even mix between J & P types and by far J types find this work less stressful. P types tend to feel constantly under the gun and pressured.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one to think that. The INTJ forum is a good lesson in NT behaving badly. Using logic to savage other people and make yourself right, even if you are in fact not right. It's high justification running rampant. You will find irrational leaps of logic of which Ni-Te is the master when it's not balanced. Things like a person finding a single obscure university study built on a faulty premise then waving that around as conclusive evidence of the rightness of their own faulty thinking. Taking it one step further and proclaiming it as universal truth. This is the worst of the Ni-Te combo. Blatant double standards are equally rife there too, and when challenged meets with a wall of justification how if the double standard exists it does so because of xyz and therefore is valid.
Te is incredibly tenacious even when it's wrong and will die a slow, kicking and screaming horrible death before it changes it's mind. Te dominants can become infected with societal mistruths and then there's just no helping them.
TinyBubbles
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Heh, I feel this is what makes it so effective though. The conviction of those with dominant or auxillary Te has often made me question my own position; even an immoral or incorrect stance, if presented confidently enough, has a tremendous ability to influence others. NTJs I feel would probably make good leaders, whether or not they'd be inclined to adopt such a role.
Razare
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Yeah, I think INFJ's can be all over the place as far as morality and behavior.
About not liking that INFJ you know, most people don't like me either. I do wonder if it is that they perceive me as dishonest, or having some other negative quality. Perhaps they are perceiving my internal motive which is my Ni manifesting itself... hidden motives are to be mistrusted, perhaps?
Also, I think it might be the harshness of Ti + Ni, delivered using Fe in a persuasive manner. It would be great if I could be one of these fun-loving INFJ's that use their Fe to just get along and have fun.
I'm doing something wrong maybe. This is why I like the INTP forum better. I can go there, say all I want and no one is put-off by the intensity of my writing.
Nixie
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Yea, couldn't tell you were intense <jokes> The glowing eyeballs in the avatar give you away. Intense emotions aren't bad. Feeling misunderstood is universal.
Truth Eternity
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I'm an INFJ and my father's an ESTJ. Even though I haven't asked him for his MBTI, he's the staple, cookie cutter ESTJ. He tends to come around as extremely bossy, like you said your mom does. He also needs to maintain direct control over everything to be able to process, which can often be harmful to others. He HATES emotional conflict/expression, as he very obviously doesn't understand how to deal with such situations, and that makes him uncomfortable, causing him to just leave the situation. He shows his love by his drive to make us the best we can be, as he really cares for us and wants us to be happy and successful. It took me until adulthood to truly understand that, by the way. The problem is that he is super bossy in doing so, and pushes us towards are success by inately requiring us to obtain it the way he did, since he believes his way is safe, as he became successful using that way (obviously). My dad came from a poor black family in the 60's living in the ghettos of central Milwaukee, and worked his way up to making a very large income, and I believe that exacerbates his way of thinking, as it solidifies his belief that his way is the best and safest way. His bossiness and controlling nature is out of his love, as he wants us to be the best we can be and that is his way of getting us there, but as being a staple ESTJ implies, that can be very harmful to those he only wants to help. In the end, his inabliinato compromise that along with my mother being a very opposite MBTI than his drove them apart a few years back. I feel like if I found MBTI earlier in life, and if my family found it earlier, my parents wouldn't have divorced and me and my brother and sister wouldn't be struggling as adults (me in college, my brother finding life after high school, and my sister finding a house and a job she can settle down in). I hope I helped you a bit. It helped me to finally write this out.
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"Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart
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It's one of many accomplishments.May I just take a moment to point out how impressed I am that you dug up a thread from 2010?