Why America can't have nice things...

[gloomy-optimist]

Has anyone considered how smoothly it'd run if they diverted 90% the funds from Military RnD, as well as 80% of the Nuclear System, and cut the foreign presence down by a third?

Everyone could have a good Health and Education system, and it would leave shitloads of money left to the government. It'd probably pay the debts.

We'd have a crap-ton more money if we just got rid of some of the (now) pointless programs from the New Deal reform :/

Of course, I don't expect our government to actually be able to do that. We don't know how to clean it up; just how to add more shit on.

 

[MindYourHead]

was that meant to be sarcastic?

Somewhat.

Has anyone considered how smoothly it'd run if they diverted 90% the funds from Military RnD, as well as 80% of the Nuclear System, and cut the foreign presence down by a third?

Everyone could have a good Health and Education system, and it would leave shitloads of money left to the government. It'd probably pay the debts.

I agree with you 100%!
I have never understood why the US Government feels the need to butt into everyone's business. Including the lives of it's citizens.

I would rather we kept to ourselves.

 

[Satya]

And I agree with you that's why I will never vote Dem or Republican ever again. Both parties are screwed up. What I can't understand is why is everyone's getting so upset about people raising concerns? Why are we in such a hurry to fix it.

Because we have been trying to fix it since 1993? Since the last time we tried to fix it the insurance companies stalled it to the point that nothing was done? And exactly why do you feel rushed? Is anyone actually voting on the bill yet? Is it even narrowed down to one bill yet?

I was able to go to the hospital and get taken care of the other day. And when I was there I asked every Doctor I could find if they supported the heath care bill and they all said no, they were against it.

How many of these alleged doctors actually read the health care bill? Frankly, I have yet to find anyone who has and until I hear people give the specific reasons for why they don't believe this bill will work, citing from the bill itself, then I'm far from convinced about what anyone has to say in the matter.

They agree that something has to be done not just the current plan. If this plan goes into law I will not be covered. I don't make enough money. And I will most likely go out of business because I won't be able to afford the taxes on my business.

How do you know you won't be covered? How do you know it will effect your business? How do you know you don't make enough money to cover changes? Frankly, I doubt you have taken the time to even look at the bill and you are just shooting off from the hip based on your ideology rather than the facts.

I'm happy you are scared. In fact I'm happy to hear a good share of the people who hear about this reform are scared. The only true cure for fear is knowledge, and nobody is going to get that by buying into the rhetoric and making baseless speculations about what could happen. You might actually have to educate yourself! Maybe if people learn to spend less time buying into media hype and more time actually learning for themselves what has actually been proposed and how far it has progressed, then we could actually get some decent legislation.

 

[BenW]

you need to have a tumour removed, you need to be protected from crime, you need to have fires put out, you need to be protected from your nations enemies.

Do I?
I don't think I do, really.

Simply claiming things as "needs" doesn't explain the logic behind doing so.

you want your garden landscaping, you want a massage, you want to be entertained.

I still can't afford them, so therefore I feel secure in demanding that everyone else with more money than me ought to pay for them.

if people were properly educated about the alternatives to paying taxes, or if they experienced the alternative, then everyone would pay taxes apart from the very select few who could afford their own private armies

Are you fucking kidding me?
If there were no legal repricussions for tax evasion, the entire system would collapse.
Taxation doesn't work without violence to back it up.

'the ends never justify the means' - a single parent being able to feed themselves and their child isn't justification for those who can afford to pay tax doing so?

Nope.

If that genuinely is your position then you are a reprehensible human being

Oh please...
Being against taxation is not the same as being anti-charity.

they exist within a society which creates the conditions for them to behave in such a manner, they owe the opportunity to be an entrepreneur to society

People make their own fate, they owe "society" nothing.

I have already explained what I consider a right to be, if you don't consider those things to be rights then we differ on a fundamental moral level.

Clearly.
Doesn't mean one of us isn't wrong.

from your own declaration of independance:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Uh, ok. I didn't see anything that screamed "healthcare" in that quote.
And I'm pretty damn sure the founding fathers of America never took any steps towards either national or state healthcare, so that's pretty laughable to imply.

Life: ownership over ones body.
Liberty: personal freedom.
Pursuit of happiness: the opportunity (unfettered from state influence) to succeed, or fail.

 

[BenW]

BenW: Yes, its true, the money does come from the taxpayers. And I think this is the part where we disagree the most; I strongly believe that the rich is obligated to support the poor. They can get buy without the money others may need just to survive.

Believe whatever you want; I'm arguing against it.

Even if the rich ARE "obligated" to support the poor, that magically doesn't make theft justifiable.

Not sure how private property works into all this though.

What the hell do you suppose wealth is, if not private property?

 

[Deleted member 1391]

A little passive aggressive, aren't you?

*gives you a cookie*

 

[BenW]

A little passive aggressive, aren't you?

*gives you a cookie*

A little moronic, aren't you?

*ignores future posts*

 

[errrrrrrrrrm]

Do I?
I don't think I do, really.

Simply claiming things as "needs" doesn't explain the logic behind doing so.

I still can't afford them, so therefore I feel secure in demanding that everyone else with more money than me ought to pay for them.

you are either being deliberately obtuse or you are an idiot

Are you fucking kidding me?
If there were no legal repricussions for tax evasion, the entire system would collapse.
Taxation doesn't work without violence to back it up.

If you read what I said

if people were properly educated about the alternatives to paying taxes, or if they experienced the alternative, then everyone would pay taxes apart from the very select few who could afford their own private armies

you are living proof that people don't understand the alternatives

Nope.

Oh please...
Being against taxation is not the same as being anti-charity.

perhaps not, but being anti taxation is the same as being an idiot

People make their own fate, they owe "society" nothing.

unbelievable

Clearly.
Doesn't mean one of us isn't wrong.

the only thing you have said that makes any sense what so ever

Uh, ok. I didn't see anything that screamed "healthcare" in that quote.
And I'm pretty damn sure the founding fathers of America never took any steps towards either national or state healthcare, so that's pretty laughable to imply.

Life: ownership over ones body.
Liberty: personal freedom.
Pursuit of happiness: the opportunity (unfettered from state influence) to succeed, or fail.

I believe you may be the only person in the world who defines life in that way.

I realise my comments seem personal and even petty but as attempting to respond to your 'comments' would only be restating what you have already failed to understand I just gave my opinion.

 

[Shai Gar]

Currently
---------
Operations and maintenance-------------------$179.8 Milliard.
Military Personnel-----------------------------$125.2 Milliard.
Procurement----------------------------------$104.2 Milliard.
Research, Development, Testing & Evaluation---$79.6 Milliard.
TOTAL FUNDS-------------------$488.8 Milliard.


Removing
--------
Operations and maintenance-------------------$129 Milliard.
Military Personnel------------------------------$50 Milliard.
Procurement----------------------------------$50 Milliard.
Research, Development, Testing & Evaluation---$65 Milliard.
TOTAL FUNDS REMOVED----------$294 Milliard.

Leaving
-------
Operations and maintenance--------------------$50.8 Milliard.
Military Personnel-------------------------------$75.2 Milliard.
Procurement-----------------------------------$54.2 Milliard.
Research, Development, Testing & Evaluation----$14.6 Milliard.
TOTAL FUNDS REMAINING----------$194.8 Milliard.


294,000,000,000USD would go a hell of a long way towards the national health system, and what's left over go towards the US Deficit. The Recession would be over sooner, and the US would be a hell of a lot less warlike by necessity. But it doesn't leave them toothless. Anyone trying to pick a fight, or invade would find themselves STILL up against the most powerful nation on earth, but they'd also be up against a population who finally gives a shit.

 

[BenW]

you are either being deliberately obtuse or you are an idiot

Ok, so you can't define what makes them needs, duly noted. Thanks for playing.

you are living proof that people don't understand the alternatives

You're the ignorant one; I have a great understanding of how a stateless society would work, hence why I'm making a case for it. You've done just about everything other than attempt to persuade me with reasons why I'm wrong.

perhaps not, but being anti taxation is the same as being an idiot

And using ad hominem attacks is the same as being a moron.

I believe you may be the only person in the world who defines life in that way.

Not really, no.
The entire point of ones body being their private property is the freedom from things like murder, assault, etc...
Self ownership was something the authors of that bit of literature you wiped your ass with had in mind when they wrote it.

I realise my comments seem personal and even petty but as attempting to respond to your 'comments' would only be restating what you have already failed to understand I just gave my opinion.

No, you just don't know what the fuck you're talking about, so you have to resort to personal attacks.

*ignores*

 

[errrrrrrrrrm]

Ok, so you can't define what makes them needs, duly noted. Thanks for playing.

I must assume you're not a native speaker of english. We have these things called dictionaries that tell us what words mean, when we know what words mean we can then use them to communicate with other speakers of the same language because they also know what these words mean.

from websters:

Need: a physiological or psychological requirement for the well-being of an organism

You're the ignorant one; I have a great understanding of how a stateless society would work, hence why I'm making a case for it. You've done just about everything other than attempt to persuade me with reasons why I'm wrong.

I'm waiting with baited breath

And using ad hominem attacks is the same as being a moron.

another word you might want to look up is 'irony'

Not really, no.
The entire point of ones body being their private property is the freedom from things like murder, assault, etc...
Self ownership was something the authors of that bit of literature you wiped your ass with had in mind when they wrote it.

and how is that related to the word life again?

No, you just don't know what the fuck you're talking about, so you have to resort to personal attacks.

*ignores*

I can sort of understand how someone can be misguided if they ignore everyone who tries to talk sense to them, but I don't understand how it can get to this extreme

 

[Deleted member 1391]

A little moronic, aren't you?

*ignores future posts*

 

[Shai Gar]

Well, you did insult him...

 

[bamf]

This page has turned into a very sad excuse for a discussion.

Personal attacks do nothing but detract from what could be discussed and from the validity of said poster.

 

[Deleted member 1391]

Well, you did insult him...

Not really, I just pointed out an observation on his behaviour after numerous passive aggressive posts by blatantly insults that doesn't agree with him as being a simple minded fool.

I believe they call it a "superiority complex", "arrogance", or "an overinflated ego." I don't directly insult anyone, but if they're going to start throwing childish, condescending remarks into their "discussion", they pretty much make themselves fair game to be accused of less than mature behaviour.

A quick stroll through his past posts shows that this is a common occurrence on his behalf.

P.S. the tears were meant to be sarcastic.

 

[errrrrrrrrrm]

This page has turned into a very sad excuse for a discussion.

Personal attacks do nothing but detract from what could be discussed and from the validity of said poster.

when a person refuses to accept the definition of the word 'need', or when a person believes that innocent children dying of starvation is preferable to paying tax, intelligent discourse is impossible and I feel free to offer my personal opinion.

 

[54192&#cmy]

"How many of these alleged doctors actually read the health care bill? Frankly, I have yet to find anyone who has and until I hear people give the specific reasons for why they don't believe this bill will work, citing from the bill itself, then I'm far from convinced about what anyone has to say in the matter."

So now your calling me a liar? What the fuck kinda chip you got on your shoulder?

I have been reading the bill. The problem's will arise after it is passed. Then what? I am still reading it when I am done reading I will get back to you.

 

[54192&#cmy]

Sec c31 "9 members who are not Federal employees or officers and who are appointed by
the President"

This section of the bill gives the pres more power. And it makes it possible for the wrong kind of people to be running things. These people will have power directly over your health care.


PARTICIPATION.

 

[Satya]

Sec c31 "9 members who are not Federal employees or officers and who are appointed by
the President"

This section of the bill gives the pres more power. And it makes it possible for the wrong kind of people to be running things. These people will have power directly over your health care.

It also makes it possible for the current President to have some control over the direction of health care as opposed to virtually none. Not everyone is afraid of the President.

"experts in racial and ethnic disparities" Why have this? What will this lead too?
And yes I know they are spelling out that it will be a balance. But it will eventually be up to the pres.

Since you are clearly unaware of it, there are substantial disparities between racial groups in this country, and the government has an obligation to reduce them.

 

[54192&#cmy]

It also makes it possible for the current President to have some control over the direction of health care as opposed to virtually none. Not everyone is afraid of the President.

I am not afraid of the president. I am afraid of power.



Since you are clearly unaware of it, there are substantial disparities between racial groups in this country, and the government has an obligation to reduce them.

And how do you figure that I am unaware? You sure must have a poor opinion of my level of knowledge. And please show me proof of how I am "clearly unaware" of the situation.