Why don't women make the first move?

[Yatagarasu]

I will definately support arguments around there being biological differences between men and women and that these biological differences wil have implications for behaviour

Trying to pick apart this particular behavioural pattern might be beyond me

Personally i think this might actually be one of those areas where there are other things at play and that biology is less of a restriction on this issue

For example in the age of contraception and sex for enjoyment i'm not sure the idea that women are being careful about a mate stands up entirely

There are indesputable differences for example womens ability to suckle a child or mens generally greater physical strength but is this not one of those areas where a greater degree of equality could indeed be achieved?

I see what you mean. I think we can make headway but I'm not sure if we can make the headway necessary to make it more commonplace. Just because of the subconscious level and the effects of biology on our actions and thoughts. Picking a mate that is capable and willing to take care of a child is a subconscious thought. Having sex for pleasure with the ability to use contraception is a bypass to have your sexual needs satisfied. It is different then picking a potential long term relationship. Most people don't come into relationships for the sex, unless that is their primary objective.

 

[LucyJr]

[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] and [MENTION=731]the[/MENTION] We got to this point of men being the initiators by following our traditions of gender roles. Those gender roles are grounded in the androcentric ideals of our forefathers. Which in turn were shaped by our biology. Tradition is sometimes used as an argument to keeping everything the way it is. Same thing with other social issues such as marriage equality, even though tradition in of itself does not validate those ideas.

And my question was what if tradition has nothing to do of wether a man should make the first movement or not...maybe there are some other reasons for why is proper for a man to make that first move, and actualy most of the "moves".

 

[bionic]

I have no problem initiating. In fact, I initiated with my BF at the beginning and I have no regrets. And yes, he reciprocated back. When I felt he had interest in me as well and it escalated into something more, I gave him the reigns. It's been two years so far and I found the love of my life. In the past, I went for the guys who initiated with me and just settled. I also noticed that many of them were unhealthy guys. I stopped and smelled the roses and realized I was settling for losers and deserved more. A lot of it was me choosing out of insecurity, I was in an unhealthy stage in life, or just plain naiveté.

I've never felt pressure from society not to initiate or show interest. I am my own person. I've done it no matter what and I notice a lot of boys get very intimidated by my forwardness and confidence. I ENJOY making the initiative... and yes, I do feel rejected and burned when it isn't reciprocated; but I'm human. At least I took the chance. If they don't dig me, then oh well! They could've had something really fucking good. My bf is the lucky one now.

As for sex? It goes both ways. I love to initiate but I also love to be wanted. I'm not one to resist my urges.

 

[Korg]

So basically, every woman in this thread sits on their boyfriend's face without asking first. Good to know.

 

[Switchgirl]

I have no problem initiating. In fact, I initiated with my BF at the beginning and I have no regrets. And yes, he reciprocated back. When I felt he had interest in me as well and it escalated into something more, I gave him the reigns. It's been two years so far and I found the love of my life. In the past, I went for the guys who initiated with me and just settled. I also noticed that many of them were unhealthy guys. I stopped and smelled the roses and realized I was settling for losers and deserved more. A lot of it was me choosing out of insecurity, I was in an unhealthy stage in life, or just plain naiveté.

I've never felt pressure from society not to initiate or show interest. I am my own person. I've done it no matter what and I notice a lot of boys get very intimidated by my forwardness and confidence. I ENJOY making the initiative... and yes, I do feel rejected and burned when it isn't reciprocal but I'm human. At least I took the chance. If they don't dig me, then I feel bad for them. They could've had something really fucking good. But oh well, my bf is the lucky one now.

You go sista! The argument of this thread is pretty much generalizing because there ARE girls who are willing to initiate and aren't afraid of doing so..

This is just from my experience (and my own preferences), but the shy and reserved guys who aren't all about chasing and asking out women all day tend to be the hidden gems (There are exceptions to both sides, yes.).. This is me speaking solely based my experience, though.

 

[bionic]

I don't think it's so black and white. I think the term "initiate" needs to be more specific. Are we only discussing why women don't initiate initial contact with a man whom they are interested in..? Or we are we also mentioning initiation in a more physical aspect?

I initiated contact with my current S/o. I've naturally been more drawn to quiet and reserved types. Personally, I am generally uninterested in men whom approach me first. It's personal preference for me.

But just because I initiate contact does not mean I expect to be "dominant" in every aspect of the relationship. Just because a woman approaches a man does not mean she wants to play the dominant role. You can approach a man first and still have him be "dominant" in other aspects.

Hit the nail on the head. It also doesn't sound like you're throwing yourself onto a man either. You're simply just acting in a friendly manner.

I feel like this is another opposing presumption. Like, people in the thread are talking about how self-image/societies pressure harms a woman's desire to initiate or it's in their animal instinct to want to be dominated or wanted by a man. Well, the extreme flipside propagated here is that a woman would be throwing herself onto a man or dominating them entirely.... and that's just too extreme.

Why can't there be a nice, simple in between? Why can't a woman simply say "hey" to a guy and initiate friendly conversation? It's not about throwing yourself onto a man. It's about knowing what you want as a woman and showing in it a mature and tasteful way by initiating a friendly, warm conversation. It doesn't have to be so acute.

A woman can still believe in equality of the sexes and desire adoration from another man. They're not mutually exclusive. A woman may want to be treated equally by society and/or her company ALONG with being desired by men in her personal life. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Societal life =/= Personal life... at least, not always.

 

[Switchgirl]

Hit the nail on the head. It also doesn't sound like you're throwing yourself onto a man either. You're simply just acting in a friendly manner.

I feel like this is another opposing presumption. Like, people in the thread are talking about how self-image/societies pressure harms a woman's desire to initiate or it's in their animal instinct to want to be dominated or wanted by a man. Well, the extreme flipside propagated here is that a woman would be throwing herself onto a man or dominating them entirely.... and that's just too extreme.

Why can't there be a nice, simple in between? Why can't a woman simply say "hey" to a guy and initiate friendly conversation? It's not about throwing yourself onto a man. It's about knowing what you want as a woman and showing in it a mature and tasteful way by initiating a friendly, warm conversation. It doesn't have to be so acute.

A woman can still believe in equality of the sexes and desire adoration from another man. They're not mutually exclusive. A woman may want to be treated equally by society and/or her company ALONG with being desired by men in her personal life. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Societal life =/= Personal life... at least, not always.

This!

You bring up such an important point. Why must there be only extremes in regards to this topic?

Another issue I see in this thread is that people are viewing this from a male vs female perspective. The topic of initiation is more of an individual-based topic, rather than male vs female. Some women prefer to initiate. Some women prefer to be approached. Some men prefer to initiate. Some men prefer to be approached. Definitely there are societal influences and gender-roles that can factor into this, but.. Everyone is different!

 

[bionic]

So basically, every woman in this thread sits on their boyfriend's face without asking first. Good to know.

Only on days that end in Y.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Funny. You can either ask the guy you are interested in out or wait for him to ask you out which may never happen. So 1) ask out maybe go out or 2) dont ask out and never go out. Huh....

 

[Yatagarasu]

The idea of middle ground is very appealing. It is what we should be striving towards but that doesn't mean the majority care about that. We are individuals and we all have preferences but that doesn't preclude us from the influences of our biology or environment. The majority of women do not initiate. I as well as few others tried to explain why that might be the case. That is all. With that being said, I applaud the individuals that go beyond the norms. Muir just asked a question as to why it is the case that most women don't initiate. He wasn't advocating any extreme (at least not from what I read).

 

[bionic]

Funny. You can either ask the guy you are interested in out or wait for him to ask you out which may never happen. So 1) ask out maybe go out or 2) dont ask out and never go out. Huh....

How is that funny? It hasn't always been the case from my experience. Just overall, it's been me initiating or them initiating. Sometimes, nothing has even been happened.

Why assume the extremes? Reality is not bipolar.

 

[Eventhorizon]

How is that funny? It hasn't always been the case from my experience. Just overall, it's been me initiating or them initiating. Sometimes, nothing has even been happened.

Why assume the extremes? Reality is not bipolar.

"Funny" is a term for.... contemplating I think.
A person thinks Id really like to be close to that person over there. But then doesnt ask the person out afraid of being rejected. So, they never go out a d they never become close. Where as asking the person out opens the possibility.
Dont get me wrong when younger I knew all about the fear of rejection. Now that I know what the fear is though its just not a deal anymore.

 

[Switchgirl]

A person thinks Id really like to be close to that person over there. But then doesnt ask the person out afraid of being rejected. So, they never go out a d they never become close. Where as asking the person out opens the possibility. .

What's worse than rejection is missing out on a potentially amazing friendship/intimate relationship. Which is why I could care less about being the first one to initiate or not.

You never know unless you try

 

[bionic]

"Funny" is a term for.... contemplating I think.
A person thinks Id really like to be close to that person over there. But then doesnt ask the person out afraid of being rejected. So, they never go out a d they never become close. Where as asking the person out opens the possibility.
Dont get me wrong when younger I knew all about the fear of rejection. Now that I know what the fear is though its just not a deal anymore.

Oh, I gotcha. And yes, I understand what you mean.

Fear can definitely dwindle any sort of attraction or initiation. It's such a messed up, debilitating feeling. :/ I feel like through experience, most people gain maturity and confidence, and that fear of rejection isn't always as debilitating for them. I look at it more as... Why not have the possibility then to not have it at all?

 

[Gaze]

Could it be that depending on the woman of course, that many still see a woman approaching a guy as a sign of desperation or inadequacy, whereas for the guys, initiating is considered a sign of true "manhood" ? They instinctively think if she's worth it, then it's me who should be approaching her, not the other way around. There's this belief in our culture today that the person asking or initiating is automatically in some kind of begging position, has more to prove or more to lose. So, we treat them as if they are in a lower or less advantageous position than we are. Many men still instinctively think they should approach even if they don't want to or feel nervous, and prefer the idea of initiating. However, depending on their interest in the person, they will perceive her actions differently. If they're not attracted, but she doesn't know it and approaches, then she's perceived as desperate or a turn off. If he is attracted to her, and she approaches, then he may see this as having the upper hand, and may want to use the opportunity to play a game, to maintain what he sees as his advantage with the decision to accept or reject. If you know the person well and you're comfortable with each other, then it may be considered more normal and not that big a deal to initiate something because there is a sense of understanding and acceptance between you.

 

[Switchgirl]

Could it be that depending on the woman of course, that many still see a woman approaching a guy as a sign of desperation or inadequacy, whereas for the guys, initiating is considered a sign of true "manhood" ? They instinctively think if she's worth it, then it's me who should be approaching her, not the other way around. There's this belief in our culture today that the person asking or initiating is automatically in some kind of begging position, has more to prove or more to lose. So, we treat them as if they are in a lower or less advantageous position than we are. Many men still instinctively think they should approach even if they don't want to or feel nervous, and prefer the idea of initiating. However, depending on their interest in the person, they will perceive her actions differently. If they're not attracted, but she doesn't know it and approaches, then she's perceived as desperate or a turn off. If he is attracted to her, and she approaches, then he may see this as having the upper hand, and may want to use the opportunity to play a game, to maintain what he sees as his advantage with the decision to accept or reject. If you know the person well and you're comfortable with each other, then it may be considered more normal and not that big a deal to initiate something because there is a sense of understanding and acceptance between you.

Very well put

I remember when I was pursuing my s/o in the past, I asked for the advice of a male friend. He told me that I shouldn't be initiating contact in the first place, and that I looked desperate and "easy." He told me that I needed to be a little bit "bitchier" and "harder to get" in order to catch his attention (Not sure if he was out to sabotage things or not).

Although I was going to follow through with his advice, something inside of me told me that it's best to just be myself. After a while, I told my s/o about what my male friend told me and my s/o said he wouldn't have been interested in me if I didn't act like myself .

I'm sure a lot of other women are hearing that exact same advice. Luckily I was confident and strong enough not to follow it, but others will choose to blindly follow it because they fear rejection and want the most optimal results.

 

[muir]

I have no problem initiating. In fact, I initiated with my BF at the beginning and I have no regrets. And yes, he reciprocated back. When I felt he had interest in me as well and it escalated into something more, I gave him the reigns. It's been two years so far and I found the love of my life. In the past, I went for the guys who initiated with me and just settled. I also noticed that many of them were unhealthy guys. I stopped and smelled the roses and realized I was settling for losers and deserved more. A lot of it was me choosing out of insecurity, I was in an unhealthy stage in life, or just plain naiveté.

I've never felt pressure from society not to initiate or show interest. I am my own person. I've done it no matter what and I notice a lot of boys get very intimidated by my forwardness and confidence. I ENJOY making the initiative... and yes, I do feel rejected and burned when it isn't reciprocated; but I'm human. At least I took the chance. If they don't dig me, then oh well! They could've had something really fucking good. My bf is the lucky one now.

As for sex? It goes both ways. I love to initiate but I also love to be wanted. I'm not one to resist my urges.

Thats great you got the guy you wanted because you were pro active...i applaud that

 

[muir]

Could it be that depending on the woman of course, that many still see a woman approaching a guy as a sign of desperation or inadequacy, whereas for the guys, initiating is considered a sign of true "manhood" ? They instinctively think if she's worth it, then it's me who should be approaching her, not the other way around. There's this belief in our culture today that the person asking or initiating is automatically in some kind of begging position, has more to prove or more to lose. So, we treat them as if they are in a lower or less advantageous position than we are. Many men still instinctively think they should approach even if they don't want to or feel nervous, and prefer the idea of initiating. However, depending on their interest in the person, they will perceive her actions differently. If they're not attracted, but she doesn't know it and approaches, then she's perceived as desperate or a turn off. If he is attracted to her, and she approaches, then he may see this as having the upper hand, and may want to use the opportunity to play a game, to maintain what he sees as his advantage with the decision to accept or reject. If you know the person well and you're comfortable with each other, then it may be considered more normal and not that big a deal to initiate something because there is a sense of understanding and acceptance between you.

I think the asker is definately at a disadvantage in that they are essentially taking a risk

So what i want to know is if we want to live in an equal society why should men always have to be the ones taking the risk? (thats a generalisation of course sometimes women do make the first move...but its a generalisation that we are all aware of)

Shouldn't women take up some of the risk burden?

 

[Scientia]

I work with students and I have seen a huge shift over the years. I would say that young women, on average, are more aggressive than men now when it comes to advances.

 

[barbad0s]

Lol as someone who has asked out many guys in the past, and who has both befriended many "nice" quiet guys and been in relationships with many quiet guys due to the same logic that you had [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] (that quiet guys will be the nice ones contrary to their loud bellowing counterparts), I can conclude that there being a correlation between shy and nice is debatable... Plenty of quiet guys out there are simply insecure jerks, or ultimately just mean-to-average people at most who only seem less flawed because their silence hides their negative points more effectively.


From now on I am not going to be the one initiating anymore, because I want someone who is at least on par with my level of confidence in themselves and social competence. I don't have a problem with letting someone know I like them because I'd rather say it than leave an unfulfilled possibility hanging in the past. I don't care about gender roles or slut shaming or labels, and people who buy into that only have themselves to blame for missed opportunities. But I'm going to use this gendered expectation to weed out the men who are too timid or too unwilling or who don't like me enough to jump through this simple hoop. I'm already a very friendly and open person and I obviously try to get really friendly with those I like, so if they are too thickheaded and terrible enough at communication and taking hints to see that I like them, and then too afraid of making themselves vulnerable to care to be responsive to me IN SPITE OF the clear gender role laid out for them, then I don't want that in a relationship.