You and God

John K said:
I have to add that there is spiritual darkness out there too that is as horrific as He is love and joy. The void without His presence is terrible beyond easy description and is not an experience I'd wish on anyone.
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I need to hear more about this. Whenever something like this comes up, I can't help but refer to the character of Lucifer being a fallen angel. I've always somewhat interpreted this to mean that lucifer was of good and remains to be of God, albeit errant. To me this implies that all is indeed of God, pain included. I wonder what you might say to that, as well as my above post for @ThomasJ79.


Quiet said:
i find it very difficult to really articulate.
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This is a commonality for many of us, isn't it? This and the very expression of a relationship with God as something profoundly personal regardless of where we stand in terms of belief. I think there's something delicately telling about that. That God is presented to each of us here in this thread under a very intimate light, I think, speaks of how God is exactly within us.
 
ThomasJ79 said:
like a snail sliding out of its shell, hoping I don't get eaten or stepped on, or who knows what else, lol.
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Oh. LOL.

Well, as the OP, I'll do my best to arrest any such likely progressions. Not to flaunt my laurels but I can be a rather good diplomat ---and I can identify potential word bombs from a mile too. In all seriousness, it's also because I have faith in the very respectfulness of the people who have been with us here in this thread.
 
mintoots said:
I need to hear more about this. Whenever something like this comes up, I can't help but refer to the character of Lucifer being a fallen angel. I've always somewhat interpreted this to mean that lucifer was of good and remains to be of God, albeit errant. To me this implies that all is indeed of God, pain included. I wonder what you might say to that, as well as my above post for @ThomasJ79.
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I only have access to my phone at the moment and this needs some care to answer properly so I’ll come back to it Mins. One thing that’s worth considering is the Cross - why was it necessary? We are blinded by familiarity and partly understood, poorly expressed dogmatic accretions so we can’t see things clearly. If instead of looking at things the usual way let’s suppose that even an omnipotent God cannot make the impossible happen - He can’t make a square circle. So this suggests that suffering is an unavoidable consequence of our existence - that it’s not possible to create us without the necessity of it.

Another example - we misunderstand and see the Cross as a historical event but it’s far more than that because He is timeless and is nailed to that Cross, suffering for eternity, as well as in a discrete event in time. He nailed himself to all our realities this way. Jesus prayed in Gethsemene for the burden of his own suffering to be lifted but his prayer could not be granted. This is a model for all the times this happens to us. Is it a satisfactory answer? - well it doesn’t satisfy really, but it illustrates what reality is even for God.

But my experience of nothingness needs some thought to link it to the questions you raised so I’ll come back to that in a couple of days - I’ll have a decent screen and keyboard to work with then as well.
 
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mintoots said:
I'm looking forward to it. Before then, the above quote is already resonating with me.
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Same. What you wrote @John K filled me with emotion, thinking about the notion of what all that means and how it plays out in my own life. I don't think you even have to be Christian per se to feel the power embedded in the idea and symbolism of what you're talking about. @Ren has elaborated/pontificated on it somewhat in the past from a philosophical standpoint as well.
 
Wyote said:
Same. What you wrote @John K filled me with emotion, thinking about the notion of what all that means and how it plays out in my own life. I don't think you even have to be Christian per se to feel the power embedded in the idea and symbolism of what you're talking about. @Ren has elaborated/pontificated on it somewhat in the past from a philosophical standpoint as well.
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It’s a great tragedy that the story of Christ is wrapped up in so much stereotyping. I have found it very rewarding to look at other spiritual systems and meet their symbols freshly minted, without any baggage - ‘on the World’s first day’ as it were. The ones that have moved me profoundly are Buddhism, the roots of the Tao, and the Sufis. To cycle back over and again and look at Christianity while doing this is like seeing the great symbolic roots of it as though they are freshly minted. We don’t have to be a ‘believer’, whatever that is, to feel the profound and amazing power of that story and how it relates to our experiences of the joys and pains of our lives. It’s says to me that though God couldn’t make us human without suffering, he could and does share intimately alongside us every pain and sorrow that we each have to pass through. This is no remote sky judge waiting to find fault, but an intimate and loving companion who is willing to share all our pain in the same way we do.
 
John K said:
It’s a great tragedy that the story of Christ is wrapped up in so much stereotyping. I have found it very rewarding to look at other spiritual systems and meet their symbols freshly minted, without any baggage - ‘on the World’s first day’ as it were. The ones that have moved me profoundly are Buddhism, the roots of the Tao, and the Sufis. To cycle back over and again and look at Christianity while doing this is like seeing the great symbolic roots of it as though they are freshly minted. We don’t have to be a ‘believer’, whatever that is, to feel the profound and amazing power of that story and how it relates to our experiences of the joys and pains of our lives. It’s says to me that though God couldn’t make us human without suffering, he could and does share intimately alongside us every pain and sorrow that we each have to pass through. This is no remote sky judge waiting to find fault, but an intimate and loving companion who is willing to share all our pain in the same way we do.
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I must mention @ThomasJ79 here simply because I want to reach out to any pain he may be feeling or experiencing. I hope that is okay.
 
mintoots said:
I must mention @ThomasJ79 here simply because I want to reach out to any pain he may be feeling or experiencing. I hope that is okay.
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Of course it’s ok mins:)
But @ThomasJ79 I must emphasise that so far I’m sharing my own experience and insight and it’s not an attempt to respond directly to the things you said. It’s all too easy for people with some faith to lack empathy with those who struggle with it. We can come up with responses that simply discount the experience of people who have sought but haven’t found. I hope very much that I’m not doing that.
 
Wyote said:
What you wrote @John K filled me with emotion, thinking about the notion of what all that means and how it plays out in my own life. I don't think you even have to be Christian per se to feel the power embedded in the idea and symbolism of what you're talking about. @
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:bread: <3

Yes, what @johnK wrote also brought out the implications of acceptance and forgiveness for me. This is where surrender comes forward in the course of any one's life as well. The surrender itself inculcates acceptance of pain, and therein the opportunity to rise.

Regardless of religion, I think it is by such spiritual surrender that a soul is able to rise again, like bread. Once again speaking as a Catholic, it is also how the :bread of life: is given more profound meaning for me. It symbolizes being wrought, rising, and serving. When we make bread: we knead, we let, it rise, then bake and serve. I see a beautiful analogy to it in our lives. When we are being kneaded, we are transforming; when we rest, we rise; and when we have risen, we serve our purpose which is to be a nourishment. It's important to note that this is a personal analogy for me. It is but an opinion expressed metaphorically but it is through this metaphor that I receive the body of Christ in communion. To me the eucharist is a symbol of my becoming one with my continuing work on my self, my states of rising, my purpose, and most importantly, a most resounding reminder of my being of God and always with God.

I think the beauty of these metaphors is because their essential meaning sits above the constructs of religion. It doesn't matter what paradigm we follow, what matters is we are cognizant of how such transformations occur for us personally.
 
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John K said:
I hope very much that I’m not doing that.
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This is the same for me, @ThomasJ79. I see where you stand too and I respect it, profoundly so.

Somehow though, your posts jumped out to me with intensity. There was an adamant energy that encouraged me to reach out to you. Perhaps that's my intuition speaking but I hoped to express it. You are not alone. This is what I believe. It is important that I say it.
 
mintoots said:
I think the beauty of these metaphors is because their essential meaning sits above the constructs of religion. It doesn't matter what paradigm we follow, what matters is we are cognizant of how such transformations occur for us personally.
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I love this idea. A transcendental metaphor.

God often feels remote to me. Distant. To me, this feels like a form of trust.
I understand your thoughts too, @ThomasJ79 because it did not feel that way when I was much younger. After a time, it would've felt better to be 'punished' by God, for at least then my existence and God's would be acknowledged. There was only ever silence.

Sometimes, I consider that we are thoughts in something's mind; like thoughts we have, but deeper complex. I am a Winterflowers thought, interacting with a Wyote thought and a Mintoots thought and many more.
Like thoughts, we are much more than a concrete word, and change when we interact with each other. Like thoughts, we bleed together like so many watercolors.
God, in that way, could be said to suffer with me by suffering through me.
That isn't to say this is the truth (or my perception of it), only something that crosses my mind from time to time.

I often remember a story, by Elie Wiesel.
He witnessed something like this, in his time in Auschwitz.

"Three rabbis - all erudite and pious men - decided one winter evening to indict God for allowing his children to be massacred. I remember: I was there, and I felt like crying. But nobody cried."

The trial lasted several nights. Witnesses were heard, evidence was gathered, conclusions were drawn, all of which issued finally in a unanimous verdict: the Lord God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, was found guilty of crimes against creation and humankind. And then, after what Wiesel describes as an "infinity of silence", the Talmudic scholar looked at the sky and said "It's time for evening prayers", and the members of the tribunal recited Maariv, the evening service.
 
John K said:
Of course it’s ok mins:)
But @ThomasJ79 I must emphasise that so far I’m sharing my own experience and insight and it’s not an attempt to respond directly to the things you said. It’s all too easy for people with some faith to lack empathy with those who struggle with it. We can come up with responses that simply discount the experience of people who have sought but haven’t found. I hope very much that I’m not doing that.
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not at all. We cool Papa John
 
mintoots said:
This is the same for me, @ThomasJ79. I see where you stand too and I respect it, profoundly so.

Somehow though, your posts jumped out to me with intensity. There was an adamant energy that encouraged me to reach out to you. Perhaps that's my intuition speaking but I hoped to express it. You are not alone. This is what I believe. It is important that I say it.
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<3 thank you min <3
 
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