Your body language shapes who you are

[LucyJr]

Here are some links for you [MENTION=3998]niffer[/MENTION]
I will post more when my computer will be fixed hopefully.
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020392
http://chriskresser.com/the-chemical-imbalance-myth

This is just for the "chemical imbalance" myth.
I will post for the false assumption that depression
has any links with the genes too.


Here is a ground-shaking book:

America Fooled: The Truth About Antidepressants, Antipsychotics And How We've Been Deceived
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0977307506/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?ref_=pd_sim_b_1

 

[LucyJr]

"I am constantly amazed by how many patients who come to see me believe or want to believe that their difficulties are biologic and can be relieved by a pill. This is despite the fact that modern psychiatry has yet to convincingly prove the genetic/biologic cause of any single mental illness. However, this does not stop psychiatry from making essentially unproven claims that depression, bipolar illness, anxiety disorders, alcoholism and a host of other disorders are in fact primarily biologic and probably genetic in origin, and that it is only a matter of time until all this is proven. This kind of faith in science and progress is staggering, not to mention naive and perhaps delusional. (Against Biologic Psychiatry, Dr. David Kaiser, Psychologist, Psychiatric Times, December, Dec. 1996, Vol. XIII, Issue 12)

"The ideology of bioreductionist psychiatry is that depression, schizophrenia, and other illnesses are biomedically distinct and genetically driven. Decades of fishing for supporting data have yielded nothing of substance, however" (Pseudoscience in Biological Psychiatry, Colin A. Ross, M.D., & Alvin Pam, Ph.D., 1995, p. 140).

 

[Quiet]

Sure.

The mind is a independently existing substance, non-physical in nature and non-extendet, that can not be reduced to the brain nor caused by the brain, or explain in terms of physical properties.

As a identification, I think the mind can be identified with consciousness and self-awareness.
"I think, therefore I am" Rene Descartes

This quote is close, but not quite there- its more like, i am aware that i think, i am beyond my thoughts, emotions, feelings, beliefs, 'story', 'personality', and past, i am beyond perception, i am aware that i am aware, I AM. And this I AM is Love, Oneness, Power, Joy...God.

I really like the way you defined mind

............

The brain is not the mind. The brain is a part of the body, another organ.
The body is the projection of the mind. The soul, or spirit, is the vessel for the body. The body is contained within this spiritual aura, and it is the spirit that envelopes and endows this bag of carbon with life. Although the spirit can and frequently leaves the body, the spirit needs to be committed to the body for the body to be 'alive'.
Basicaly we are spirit, and we have mind. In this plane of existance (duality, illusion), we use our mind to project the body and our 'reality' (illusion/delusion). The body is a tool for projection and communication.
The mind is of the Oneness and is spirit, real, and eternal. The body is of matter, and is illusory and temporary. Therefore the mind is beyond the body, and does not require a body to exist. But a body cannot exist without mind.

All matter originates from mind. Mind is independant of matter, it is. Matter is dependant on mind, and only exists because of mind. While we are on this plane of duality, mind can be influenced by matter. However, mind cannot ever be truly harmed or altered by matter, because matter is illusion and does not actually exists outside this plane. Mind originates perception, perception creates matter, and the matter that is percieved effects and shapes the mind within the framework of duality. Therefore the body can effect the mind through this feedback loop, but only in the framework of duality

Basically, since the separation (which never actually occured except in this illusory dream), we have been on a plane of duality and delusion. When we incarnate here, our mind is limited and trapped by the conditions governing this game of duality- body, time, space. This occurs because of 'perception'. Perception only occurs in duality. Outside duality, perception does not exist, because we know all is One, and only Truth can be known. Perception occurs because we believe that we are separate, that we are limited by time, space, and 'ability'. Perception involves continuous judgment, and then using this judgement to predetermine the outcome of situations. When we prejudge a situation, we create that situation. This creates a cycle of karma. We project what we think. When we break this cycle, through forgiveness and At-ONE-ment, we are released from karma.

 

[this is only temporary]

I do think that a certain amount of fear can come with seeing behind the surface veil...yes, but its a fear that can then be acknowledged, owned and managed

However i think there are two reasons why that process is still worth it

The first reason is because i think...and i'm going to go into this in more detail in another thread....that most anxiety is a product of the unconscious mind where the unconscious mind is trying to tell us something is wrong. Its my view however that our society is papering over the cracks of problems and ignoring the communication that is coming from the unconscious mind and that this is leading to a lot of unresolved anxiety in our society. This is easily verifiable just from looking into the widespread use of mood altering drugs used by society....so its not my subjective opinion that there is a lot of anxiety out there

Its my view that by closing the gap between how we feel in our hearts and what we are told by the people in power that we can lessen the cognitive dissonance

The other reason i think its worth people discussing these things is because we are on a certain trajectory as a society; basically things are going to get worse if we keep our current course....so its my view that people should be discussing these matters in the hope that society might change course

If you see a person playing on a railway track and you from where you are standing can see a train coming....you're going to shout up to that person ''watch out there is a train coming''. yes it will likely cause some anxiety in the person when they first hear this but it will enable them to take certain actions which will be beneficial to them in the long run

The speaker we are talking about has posted on the internet (over 9 million views!) so that would make her what you have just called an 'internet preacher'. The only differences between her and me is that she is a professor (within the system i am criticising) and reaches a larger audience. but we are still two people putting our views out on the internet

I think empowerment is about increasing conscious awareness not trying to find ways to push yourself deeper into a game that won't make you happy anyway...so i think we differ on our view of that

i don't think saying that body language makes a difference to how you or others feel is really news to be honest....its pretty obvious

Bit of a difference here actually. Have you ever met a street preacher? I have. A street preacher intrudes on innocent passersby and makes threats and doomsday prophecies and tells people they are going to hell and the world's about to end. Frequently they have one group they like to target. Street preachers assume they have the right to other people's time and attention and they grab it very forcefully.

Usually with TED talks people don't feel accosted and it's their choice to listen to the person, who usually has some expertise on the subject.

Also, empowering people to be stronger in all areas of life however they decide is best for them is a good thing. This is not for you to decide.

Presumably one could use body language to help gain confidence and power to do many things other than get a corporate job. Here are some examples of things that many people might want to do: ask someone out, perform music in front of a crowd, play sports, or try a new skill they've always wanted to learn. Even try transcendental meditation or really anything they've never done or thought about before. These things all require feeling empowered. And deciding someone simply must be unhappy because of the choices they've made is --- hahaha.... sigh. Arrogant, that's what it is.

P.S. And one other thing -- you'll note that when people made constructive criticism of the ideas in the video, her response was to politely clarify, not claim her critics were sadistic, psychopathic or part of a powerful "Magik" conspiracy working against her. See the difference?

 

[Radiantshadow]

"I am constantly amazed by how many patients who come to see me believe or want to believe that their difficulties are biologic and can be relieved by a pill. This is despite the fact that modern psychiatry has yet to convincingly prove the genetic/biologic cause of any single mental illness. However, this does not stop psychiatry from making essentially unproven claims that depression, bipolar illness, anxiety disorders, alcoholism and a host of other disorders are in fact primarily biologic and probably genetic in origin, and that it is only a matter of time until all this is proven. This kind of faith in science and progress is staggering, not to mention naive and perhaps delusional. (Against Biologic Psychiatry, Dr. David Kaiser, Psychologist, Psychiatric Times, December, Dec. 1996, Vol. XIII, Issue 12)

"The ideology of bioreductionist psychiatry is that depression, schizophrenia, and other illnesses are biomedically distinct and genetically driven. Decades of fishing for supporting data have yielded nothing of substance, however" (Pseudoscience in Biological Psychiatry, Colin A. Ross, M.D., & Alvin Pam, Ph.D., 1995, p. 140).

I would like to respectfully add that these quotations are almost two decades old. The advent of neuroscience, the progression of genetics (e.g, behavioral genetics and epigenetics), and the systemic study of psychology as an empirical discipline (though it is not limited to such) since then have moved us beyond the mind-body problem and into integrated models. Bioreductionism and behaviorism are incomplete when considered in isolation and have been thought so for many years; more simply, human behavior is not an either-or, one-or-the-other, unidimensional event - as Drs. Kaiser and Ross partially asserted, that viewpoint is dangerous and quite ignorant. That the mind and brain form a synergistic feedback loop that fuels behavior is now one of the first things taught to college students who take psychology classes, and is done precisely to guard against simplistic, linear explanations and interpretations of human behavior.

 

[LucyJr]

I would like to respectfully add that these quotations are almost two decades old. The advent of neuroscience, the progression of genetics (e.g, behavioral genetics and epigenetics), and the systemic study of psychology as an empirical discipline (though it is not limited to such) since then have moved us beyond the mind-body problem and into integrated models. Bioreductionism and behaviorism are incomplete when considered in isolation and have been thought so for many years; more simply, human behavior is not an either-or, one-or-the-other, unidimensional event - as Drs. Kaiser and Ross partially asserted, that viewpoint is dangerous and quite ignorant. That the mind and brain form a synergistic feedback loop that fuels behavior is now one of the first things taught to college students who take psychology classes, and is done precisely to guard against simplistic, linear explanations and interpretations of human behavior.

I think there are far more numerous voices today then two decades ago that still proclaim very clear what Dr. Kaiser has stated in that quote.
Today there are not just quotes or articles, there are books which explain how these big and fat lies keep hurting milions of people, while the big companies still making huge amounts of money.
,

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]

None of that proves that chemicals are not a factor. It only calls into question if we actually have the right ones identified.

The fact that brain research is still somewhat inconclusive does not give you license to go ahead and insert any magical ideas that you feel like, especially when the ideas are less likely and even less verifiable.

 

[sprinkles]

I will also say that the chemical imbalance model being exclusive to the brain is likely an incomplete model. Balance needs to include the entire body and lifestyle, so it's more complex than brain chemistry by itself. That much I will concur on.

Things like overall health and lifestyle and nutrient intake also need to be taken into account. [MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] even in one of the links you posted, the author postulates that vitamin deficiency can be a contributor to depression. You're aware that vitamins also count as organic chemical compounds, yes?

Edit: or basically a vitamin by definition is an organic chemical compound which cannot be synthesized by the body alone and must come from diet or elsewhere.

 

[sprinkles]

This quote is close, but not quite there- its more like, i am aware that i think, i am beyond my thoughts, emotions, feelings, beliefs, 'story', 'personality', and past, i am beyond perception, i am aware that i am aware, I AM. And this I AM is Love, Oneness, Power, Joy...God.

I really like the way you defined mind

............

The brain is not the mind. The brain is a part of the body, another organ.
The body is the projection of the mind. The soul, or spirit, is the vessel for the body. The body is contained within this spiritual aura, and it is the spirit that envelopes and endows this bag of carbon with life. Although the spirit can and frequently leaves the body, the spirit needs to be committed to the body for the body to be 'alive'.
Basicaly we are spirit, and we have mind. In this plane of existance (duality, illusion), we use our mind to project the body and our 'reality' (illusion/delusion). The body is a tool for projection and communication.
The mind is of the Oneness and is spirit, real, and eternal. The body is of matter, and is illusory and temporary. Therefore the mind is beyond the body, and does not require a body to exist. But a body cannot exist without mind.

All matter originates from mind. Mind is independant of matter, it is. Matter is dependant on mind, and only exists because of mind. While we are on this plane of duality, mind can be influenced by matter. However, mind cannot ever be truly harmed or altered by matter, because matter is illusion and does not actually exists outside this plane. Mind originates perception, perception creates matter, and the matter that is percieved effects and shapes the mind within the framework of duality. Therefore the body can effect the mind through this feedback loop, but only in the framework of duality

Basically, since the separation (which never actually occured except in this illusory dream), we have been on a plane of duality and delusion. When we incarnate here, our mind is limited and trapped by the conditions governing this game of duality- body, time, space. This occurs because of 'perception'. Perception only occurs in duality. Outside duality, perception does not exist, because we know all is One, and only Truth can be known. Perception occurs because we believe that we are separate, that we are limited by time, space, and 'ability'. Perception involves continuous judgment, and then using this judgement to predetermine the outcome of situations. When we prejudge a situation, we create that situation. This creates a cycle of karma. We project what we think. When we break this cycle, through forgiveness and At-ONE-ment, we are released from karma.

I partly agree with you but inverted.

My hypothesis is that matter projects mind and mind is the illusion and mind is where the duality lives. This is why many people cannot remember their identity before they were born - because identity is a construct that goes against oneness.

This is also why you meditate and still the mind in order to become luminous, and is also why meditation is a physical practice.

We should always try to be active coming out of samadhi. For this, we have to forget things like "I should be mindful of this or that". If you are mindful, you are already creating a separation ("I - am - mindful -of - ...."). Don't be mindful, please! When you walk, just walk. Let the walk walk. Let the talk talk (Dogen Zenji says: "When we open our mouths, it is filled with Dharma"). Let the eating eat, the sitting sit, the work work. Let sleep sleep. Kinhin is nothing special. We do not have to make our everyday life into something special. We try to live in the most natural and ordinary way possible. So my advice is: Ask yourself why you practice zazen? If it is to reach some specific goal, or to create some special state of mind, then you are heading in the opposite direction from zazen. You create a separation from reality. Please, trust zazen as it is, surrender to reality here and now, forget body and mind, and do not DO zazen, do not DO anything, don't be mindful, don't be anything - just let zazen be and follow along.

 

[LucyJr]

[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]

None of that proves that chemicals are not a factor. It only calls into question if we actually have the right ones identified.

The fact that brain research is still somewhat inconclusive does not give you license to go ahead and insert any magical ideas that you feel like, especially when the ideas are less likely and even less verifiable.

No, I don't agree with you.
Firstly, I didn't say it proves any of my ideas that depression comes from the mind. I have other arguments for that. The links that I posted are to back up my claim made initial to [MENTION=3998]niffer[/MENTION] that biochemical imbalance and genes have anything to do with depression. I said none of this has been proved by science and are claims from ignorance.
So the links that I posted are only to back-up my initial claim, nothing else what you assumed.
Please don't missinterpret my words.

Secondly, I didn't need any license for my points, because they are not base on the brain. I said that depression starts from the mind, not from the brain.
If mind could be subject to science expertise and observation then yes, I would have to be a proffesional to make such a claim. But because I think depression is caused by the mind, my claim doesn't need any license.
And I also have the right to my opinion, that's why I don't need any license.

Thirdly, if indeed there is actually not a single evidence that depression is caused by chemical imbalances and 'depressive' genes, saying that science has any right to believe it will find the cause in biological factors and therefore treat the patients AS IF they are sure that the cause is there, is:

1.Pure faith, and this is out of the area of science;

2.Possibly false, because you have to recognise that there is indeed the real possibility that all these claims are false, because nothing has been discovered yet.

3.Possibly hurting many people.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]

The point still stands that being wrong about some chemical or genetic connections does not disprove all chemical and possible genetic connections.

Who needs opinions? Opinions are cheap and everybody has them.

Also what you're saying implies that doctors can ditch science entirely and just say that the drugs effect the mind directly. If you don't require evidence, then they shouldn't either. If it's valid for you then it must be valid for everybody, unless you should happen to suggest that they simply shouldn't take dangerous actions based on poor knowledge - but there's no need to insert your own hypothesis to make that point, is there?

 

[say what]

All health needs to be considered and viewed from a holistic model. I don't think one can really say that an outcome, such as depression, is the result of either internal processes (such as your mind) or external processes (such as your environment and behaviours) - they are linked intrinsically. I'm not sure how one cannot say that there isn't data out there to suggest that external factors influence your mental health. Just look at literature on physical activity, nutrition, natural environments...etc. There is evidence that participating in these behaviours, consuming certain organic food, and being in natural environments all have physiological and psychological impacts on our mood and mental state. This evidence supports both the positive and negative impact of these such things- suggesting the external forces can not only prevent and promote our health, but also negatively impact it. Just as our external environment can impact our internal, our internal can impact our external. Things like CBT show that we can train our minds and thoughts to impact us physiologically.

Our existence and wellbeing is very dualistic. Our bodies can't survive without our minds (although, I might challenge that modern medicine has allowed us to do this), and our minds (I'm referring to our state of physical living on this earth and not concepts such as the afterlife) can't survive without our bodies.

 

[sprinkles]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130318105329.htm

Mar. 18, 2013 — A new study from the University of Maryland School of Medicine suggests that depression results from a disturbance in the ability of brain cells to communicate with each other. The study indicates a major shift in our understanding of how depression is caused and how it should be treated. Instead of focusing on the levels of hormone-like chemicals in the brain, such as serotonin, the scientists found that the transmission of excitatory signals between cells becomes abnormal in depression.

Sustained enhancement of communication between brain cells is considered one of the major processes underlying memory and learning. The team's observations that excitatory brain cell function is altered in models of depression could explain why people with depression often have difficulty concentrating, remembering details, or making decisions. Additionally, the findings suggest that the search for new and better antidepressant compounds should be shifted from drugs that elevate serotonin to drugs that strengthen excitatory connections.
"Although more work is needed, we believe that a malfunction of excitatory connections is fundamental to the origins of depression and that restoring normal communication in the brain, something that serotonin apparently does in successfully treated patients, is critical to relieving the symptoms of this devastating disease," Dr. Thompson explains.

See, I can quote papers too.

 

[the]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130318105329.htm





See, I can quote papers too.

daaaayyyyyymmmmmmm!

 

[sprinkles]

All health needs to be considered and viewed from a holistic model. I don't think one can really say that an outcome, such as depression, is the result of either internal processes (such as your mind) or external processes (such as your environment and behaviours) - they are linked intrinsically. I'm not sure how one cannot say that there isn't data out there to suggest that external factors influence your mental health. Just look at literature on physical activity, nutrition, natural environments...etc. There is evidence that participating in these behaviours, consuming certain organic food, and being in natural environments all have physiological and psychological impacts on our mood and mental state. This evidence supports both the positive and negative impact of these such things- suggesting the external forces can not only prevent and promote our health, but also negatively impact it. Just as our external environment can impact our internal, our internal can impact our external. Things like CBT show that we can train our minds and thoughts to impact us physiologically.

Our existence and wellbeing is very dualistic. Our bodies can't survive without our minds (although, I might challenge that modern medicine has allowed us to do this), and our minds (I'm referring to our state of physical living on this earth and not concepts such as the afterlife) can't survive without our bodies.

That's a bit opposite of dualism.

When you die you don't go away because you're a part of the universal organism. The mind and self is the dualistic illusion.

Some may say "Well I have my own thoughts independent of other people! I'm not you and you're not me!" Well. This isn't to say that you're aren't individual. But when you burn your finger, your toe doesn't usually feel the pain, does it? Is the toe not part of the body?

Moreover, if you were to have paralysis, do the parts beyond the severed nerve stop being your body just because you can't feel them? No, they don't. It's part of you like you're part of everything else.

Just like you don't think with your thumbnail, others similarly don't think with your brain, but this is obviously not grounds to preclude one whole.

 

[say what]

That's a bit opposite of dualism.

When you die you don't go away because you're a part of the universal organism. The mind and self is the dualistic illusion.

Some may say "Well I have my own thoughts independent of other people! I'm not you and you're not me!" Well. This isn't to say that you're aren't individual. But when you burn your finger, your toe doesn't usually feel the pain, does it? Is the toe not part of the body?

Moreover, if you were to have paralysis, do the parts beyond the severed nerve stop being your body just because you can't feel them? No, they don't. It's part of you like you're part of everything else.

Just like you don't think with your thumbnail, others similarly don't think with your brain, but this is obviously not grounds to preclude one whole.

I was using dualism to denote two separate parts - the mind and the physical body. I'll admit now, that it was probably the wrong term to use in this conversation, given it's roots in philosophy! Not to mention I meant that they weren't dualistic - in that while they may seem separate, they are ultimately interconnected and dependent on each other.

I see where you're coming from with your example, but to me they don't refute what I said. When you burn your finger, your body becomes stressed. While your toe doesn't feel it, your physiological system does. I'll likely increase cortisol production, begin to regenerate skin cells, engage your immune system, etc. All functions of your body, which your toe is apart of. Much like your subconscious is often impacted, but your conscious may not feel it's impact.

I guess my point was that to understand who you are, whether it's defined by thoughts, behaviours, personalities/traits - you must look at it as a combination of both your physical body and your mental being.


....at least that's what I think I'm thinking....who knows now!

 

[LucyJr]

The point still stands that being wrong about some chemical or genetic connections does not disprove all chemical and possible genetic connections.

Sure, I was not saying that science should stop search the problem in all chemical and genetic conections, just like you said.
But what I actually said is that they treat patients with drugs and other things as if they discovered something, when in fact, at the present state, they have nothing, just "scientific hope"...

Also what you're saying implies that doctors can ditch science entirely and just say that the drugs effect the mind directly. If you don't require evidence, then they shouldn't either. If it's valid for you then it must be valid for everybody, unless you should happen to suggest that they simply shouldn't take dangerous actions based on poor knowledge - but there's no need to insert your own hypothesis to make that point, is there?

Eeeee, but IS already said to you that the fact that biologists have nothing as evidence and onky speculations for depression will not support my view that depression is caused by the mind. And IT said also that I have my arguments for that.
So why are you insist on this still? Anyway, it doesn't matter. I wanted to show and uncover something that is not true, because I thought it will be useful. For me certanly it was. When I stop beliving tha depression owns me like an object through my genes, I was free from it. Yet people understand all kinds of different things. So please, let's leave it like this.
You have your views and I have mine, and I respect yours

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]

Why do I? Because this is more important than you.

 

[sprinkles]

I was using dualism to denote two separate parts - the mind and the physical body. I'll admit now, that it was probably the wrong term to use in this conversation, given it's roots in philosophy! Not to mention I meant that they weren't dualistic - in that while they may seem separate, they are ultimately interconnected and dependent on each other.

I see where you're coming from with your example, but to me they don't refute what I said. When you burn your finger, your body becomes stressed. While your toe doesn't feel it, your physiological system does. I'll likely increase cortisol production, begin to regenerate skin cells, engage your immune system, etc. All functions of your body, which your toe is apart of. Much like your subconscious is often impacted, but your conscious may not feel it's impact.

I guess my point was that to understand who you are, whether it's defined by thoughts, behaviours, personalities/traits - you must look at it as a combination of both your physical body and your mental being.


....at least that's what I think I'm thinking....who knows now!

I wasn't refuting, rather supporting.

 

[say what]

I wasn't refuting, rather supporting.

Oops! My apologies! I totally misread and misunderstood what you were saying