[PUG] All white people are racist and must confront their racism

[arbygil]

To be honest, [MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION], I think we're both saying the same thing but coming about it two different ways - and two different perspectives. I don't think we're ever going to have the ideal world, where people behave like they're in a Coke commercial; but I want is for someone to try walking in my shoes. They don't have to be in my shoes, because that will never happen; but to respect me enough to ask what it's like? That's something I would be profoundly grateful for.

I don't like people assuming things about me, but it hurts more when it's my own culture in the West who have problems understanding why. Of course I'd take someone's apology if they scratched my car, and I would say nothing more about it. The damage was done. But the car still needs to be fixed; if you paid for the damages, I'd say it's done. What it feels like, sometimes - and this doesn't happen all the time, when it does...well - what it feels like, is someone damaged my car, apologized, and then went away without paying for it. And when I want them to pay for it they suddenly say it's not their fault, it's mine. So it's confusing, and can have mixed messages.

Mind you, I like conversations like this, where ideas can be talked through and discussed, because it gives us the opportunity to hear what the other person feels, from their perspective. Telling each other we're wrong doesn't produce anything but hurt feelings. So this now? This is good.

I can't say that anyone should turn their back on his or her culture, if they have nowhere else to go. Me, I didn't grow up in a typical Black anything; I grew up in a Jewish-American neighborhood and attended a Lutheran church. So my viewpoint on Black culture will also be skewed. But did I experience racism? Yes. Did it hurt? Yes. Do I treat everyone I know as potential racists? No, never. Not at all. But when I see something that is out of whack and I know it has the potential to wound, it upsets me - because I'm tired of it being here, when it should've been gone long ago.

I say people have the right to say what they want to say, but I think on the opposite end we shouldn't ignore the other side's feelings. There has to be a middle point, where people can come together and discuss it rationally, so they learn a little from one another and it makes them better people.

I want more; that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying we haven't made strides - to say that would be spitting on the bones of those who have come before me. We've made great strides since the 1960s. But I don't want to stay where we are; there's room to change and grow and get better at what we do. Eventually I want the children of WBC and the children of the KKK to see that their parents' ideals don't make sense in a global society. We can't drill it out of people's heads, obviously, but we don't have the same numbers of racist people in this country as we did in the past; they've been shrinking (or their ideas have changed). So I don't believe that people can't change, and I don't believe people will refuse to change if they learn to see things from another person's viewpoint. Some people were brave enough to turn their backs on their culture and fight for what was right, but they often lost their lives in the process.

 

[Apone]

To be honest, [MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION], I think we're both saying the same thing but coming about it two different ways - and two different perspectives. I don't think we're ever going to have the ideal world, where people behave like they're in a Coke commercial; but I want is for someone to try walking in my shoes. They don't have to be in my shoes, because that will never happen; but to respect me enough to ask what it's like? That's something I would be profoundly grateful for.

Alright, then how are you going to convince other people to do what you want them to? If it were just a matter of asking, I'm pretty sure that racism would be gone by now.

I say people have the right to say what they want to say, but I think on the opposite end we shouldn't ignore the other side's feelings. There has to be a middle point, where people can come together and discuss it rationally, so they learn a little from one another and it makes them better people.

But what if people don't care about your feelings? What if they don't think that learning from each other makes us better people? What if any time you tell them that racism is bad, they tell you you're a stupid liberal and don't know what you're talking about? What should be done with those people?

I want more; that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying we haven't made strides - to say that would be spitting on the bones of those who have come before me. We've made great strides since the 1960s. But I don't want to stay where we are; there's room to change and grow and get better at what we do. Eventually I want the children of WBC and the children of the KKK to see that their parents' ideals don't make sense in a global society. We can't drill it out of people's heads, obviously, but we don't have the same numbers of racist people in this country as we did in the past; they've been shrinking (or their ideas have changed). So I don't believe that people can't change, and I don't believe people will refuse to change if they learn to see things from another person's viewpoint. Some people were brave enough to turn their backs on their culture and fight for what was right, but they often lost their lives in the process.

It would be nice, but I'm not sure it's realistic to expect that these kinds of movements will ever truly die out.

 

[arbygil]

Alright, then how are you going to convince other people to do what you want them to? If it were just a matter of asking, I'm pretty sure that racism would be gone by now.

The same way Martin Luther King did it. The same way Malcolm X did it. And somewhere in between. It's not about me asking, it's about me showing and rising above it, the way it's always been done. You can never force people to change. You can only be an example that forces people to reexamine their own values by how you live. Forcing people never works; revelation born for the individual's own heart is the only way change can occur. It won't be me who changes people, because I don't have that power. People change themselves.

But what if people don't care about your feelings? What if they don't think that learning from each other makes us better people? What if any time you tell them that racism is bad, they tell you you're a stupid liberal and don't know what you're talking about? What should be done with those people?

You just keep talking until someone does listen, and someone can hear. Some people will be angry, some people won't listen - that's a given. But even if one listens, even if one changes, then something positive came from it. You don't win a war by winning the world; you win it by individuals. And yes I know full well this is liberal thinking and very silly sounding but I've seen it work; transformations happen. People can change. If people refuse to change and stay stubborn, then they stay stubborn. Eventually the world will turn without them...but at the very least, I've felt as if I've chipped away at the wall instead of stared at it, believing nothing changes.

It would be nice, but I'm not sure it's realistic to expect that these kinds of movements will ever truly die out.

Movements always change, ebb, and flow. New leaders spring up every day. That's very true. But all I can do is keep going - at least I'll have felt as if I've done something, and I'll have done my part in it.

 

[Stu]

The same way Martin Luther King did it. The same way Malcolm X did it. And somewhere in between. It's not about me asking, it's about me showing and rising above it, the way it's always been done. You can never force people to change. You can only be an example that forces people to reexamine their own values by how you live. Forcing people never works; revelation born for the individual's own heart is the only way change can occur. It won't be me who changes people, because I don't have that power. People change themselves.



You just keep talking until someone does listen, and someone can hear. Some people will be angry, some people won't listen - that's a given. But even if one listens, even if one changes, then something positive came from it. You don't win a war by winning the world; you win it by individuals. And yes I know full well this is liberal thinking and very silly sounding but I've seen it work; transformations happen. People can change. If people refuse to change and stay stubborn, then they stay stubborn. Eventually the world will turn without them...but at the very least, I've felt as if I've chipped away at the wall instead of stared at it, believing nothing changes.



Movements always change, ebb, and flow. New leaders spring up every day. That's very true. But all I can do is keep going - at least I'll have felt as if I've done something, and I'll have done my part in it.

as always, very well said.

 

[Vicarious]

[mods] Please stay on topic and stop derailing the thread with arguments that are off topic. Thanks [/mods]

 

[Skoffin]

I don't think white people are inherently more racist than any other race on this earth. People have discriminated against others for whatever reason they have decided throughout history, it is not a new or purely white phenomenon. To say that whites are somehow born to be racist throughout their lives is to say that this is what we as a race and and there is really nothing to do about it and there is no point in changing.
The thing about equality is that I do not believe it should be about making all races equal, as people are not equal, it should be about treating each person as an individual. Not all people have the same value and to treat them as such means each people's life doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Race relationships are complex and there are still a lot in the African community who believe that whites and blacks shouldn't have children together. If you think about it, it makes sense, because for hundreds of years white people have forced themselves on Africans by raping their women on plantations and have unwillingly had the children of the white man. If the white person is not enlightened in race or willing to educate themselves, they may end up erasing black culture instead of embracing it and raising their children lacking the understanding of their racial identity despite having one parent that belongs to it. There are a lot of people in the black community that would see such people who marry into white as "traitors" and "trying to act white" and I do think that it's a valid argument considering that there is a very specific way a black person has to act in order to be accepted into a white community, or really, any race that is non-white.

That is an incredibly racist set of believes and I don't believe there is any justifying it. Each individual person has the right to decide for themself what they believe, what they do and do not like, who they wish to love and how they wish to live their life. No one should have their life decided based on the ridiculous notion that they are somehow responsible for their race and that it is their duty to stick within that culture at all costs. That belief states that who you are as a person does not matter, what you want to do with your life is of no importance, the only thing that matters is the colour of your skin and what you do for other people with that same colour of skin. It strips you of personhood and individuality and makes you nothing more than, in this particular example, 'a black person'. You are defining people by their skin colour and that is racism and nothing more.

 

[WellNoWonder]

yall just gonna abandon this thread???

My husband and I had a talk today.

He's biracial and I have always been not a fit-in-with-black-people person so we get each other in a way.

I have met plenty of prejudiced people along my path. I think we ALL have. But I think we all are so reactionary to each other that we don't look beyond it and dig into these people to make them question themselves.

I've had to question my bigotry. I've had to just say "Fuck reacting" and start thinking.... Do we want to like each other or not??

And yeah it's them fuckers out there saying "Oh she's a fucking sellout" but I'm not selling out my soul for what I know is right.

We can do better, and I'm not gonna cite ethnicity or color, as I'm sure by now, we all know we are all fucking human here.

So the question I pose is, what do we do, as Humans, to listen to each other and make our differences understood as a factor that what makes us all the same????

 

[carrina]

OK... There is so much wrong with this post. First of all its ludacris to say all white people are racist. For one that's a contradiction. Speaking negatively about one race group you in the category of racist. Next, you obviously don't know all white people. I have been to many different states and cities. Black people are way more racist than white people in some cities. In predominantly ignorant pockets of society it is tradition (a dying one) to be racist regardless of your race. There are still many racist whites as well. Racism will persist with ignorance. But really, the most important point of all here is this: focusing on past issues makes you immature and, sadly, without true aim. It's pointless to rally against the past. Cant you pick a realistic issue that we face today to bitch about? Like child porn or current slavery? which by the way only involves blacks and whites indiscriminately. NEXT

 

[slant]

Hey, I still believe this.

I'm ready for round 2, go.

 

[Elis]

We are all racists, rapists and killers.
The only way out is to kill yourself, and there is nothing more selfish than suicide.

 

[NK278]

I've only read the OP. passive racism? I personally think the OP's line of thinking is what contributes to the problem. Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not a debate type of person but wasn't this a fine example of ad hominem? What's the problem? What exactly are you trying to bring our awareness to? There are millions of causes out there you're not fighting. Doesn't mean you hate animals, autistics or the starving children in Ethiopia. What exactly is the point? I love these types of arguments. They're fueled with so much emotional robust it's obvious why people are wary of those capable of emotional manipulation.

Racism is an awful phenomenon. No one race has a monopoly on this pathological dysfunction. I propose a more objective argument be made with maybe some proactive enthusiasm. ... then maybe it'll go viral and inspire. As opposed to being .... stuff.

 

[Love_Conquers_All]

[MENTION=933]Seraphim[/MENTION] I have been on the receiving end of racism by POC as you put it. I was in a school where I was one of twenty or so white people and we were all treated like shit every day. So just because they can't oppress on a large scale it can still affect your life not just offend. Try getting jumped by around 12 or so people over the fact you were born white. Also in the military I have experienced overt racism because of being white. The POC in the military can damn near say what ever they want about me but the moment I make the same kind of statement about them I am racist. It's all complete bullshit. Every race has racist people. Oh and not to mention the slaves were sold to us by their own people for guns. The slaves were the tribes who got conquered. The conquering tribe would keep some as slaves for themselves and sell the others off to other tribes and foreigners. My best friend for the past 15 years is a POC just to be clear. Racism in all forms even on a small scale can affect someone's life not just their emotions. If you really want to get down to it being affected emotionally can lead to depression and then to suicide as happened with one of the kids I went to school with who couldn't handle the racist bullying anymore.

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

Blah blah blah blah

That's how I feel about this whole thread.

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

Hey, I still believe this.

I'm ready for round 2, go.

But why?

 

[Lark]

I'm not racist, I'm about as white as they come too hailing from the north coast of ireland.

I laugh at a lot of US white supremacist groups because the white people dont always look white to me, or they dont look white like me perhaps, its not important because I like diversity anyway. Why would you want only one flavour of ice cream?

Anyway, the only modern development which I considered worryingly racist was when I saw BBC documentaries about how the Chinese have serious beliefs that human geneology and evolutionary science draw them to a conclusion that the Chinese are descended from a different branch of mankinds progenitors or early ancestors to the rest of the world, inviting a fine hair argument about who are the "real humans" or "most human humans". Scary stuff.

 

[slant]

I'm not racist, I'm about as white as they come too hailing from the north coast of ireland.

I laugh at a lot of US white supremacist groups because the white people dont always look white to me, or they dont look white like me perhaps, its not important because I like diversity anyway. Why would you want only one flavour of ice cream?

Anyway, the only modern development which I considered worryingly racist was when I saw BBC documentaries about how the Chinese have serious beliefs that human geneology and evolutionary science draw them to a conclusion that the Chinese are descended from a different branch of mankinds progenitors or early ancestors to the rest of the world, inviting a fine hair argument about who are the "real humans" or "most human humans". Scary stuff.

"Racism is an American thing"
— Lyin Ass White Europeans


German Chancellor Angela Merkel speaks with a carol singer dressed as one of the Three Wise Men at the Chancellery in Berlin.




Blackface is huge in Germany


Sweden’s culture minister Lena Adelsohn Liljeroth gleefully dining on a cake decorated to look like a blackface caricature of an African woman, replete with blood-red insides and a live actor posing as the head of the creation; donning an afro and a painted face while the rest of his body was hidden beneath the table.

More info


France is as islamophobic as fuck
"Vandals have desecrated 148 Muslim graves in France's biggest WWI cemetery, officials have said.A pig's head was hung from one headstone and slogans insulting Islam and France's Muslim justice minister were daubed on other graves."

A racist sign in County Tyrone drew wide-spread attention.

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/ac...ywhere-238579651-239670401.html#ixzz2u5sb3rgL
Follow us: @IrishCentral on Twitter | IrishCentral on Facebook

[FONT=Georgia !important]1. Gilles Bourdouleix, member of National Assembly, France[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia !important]July 21, 2013: “Maybe Hitler didn’t kill enough of them.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia !important](Note: The Nazis and their partner countries killed up to 220,000 Roma during the Holocaust.)

[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia !important]2. Manuel Valls, minister of the interior and member of the National Assembly, France[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia !important]Sept. 25, 2013: “The majority [of Roma] should be delivered back to the borders. We arenot here to welcome these people. I'd remind you of [former Socialist Premier] Michel Rocard's statement: ‘It's not France's job to deal with the misery of the whole world.’”[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia !important](Note: Valls was born in Barcelona to Spanish immigrant parents.)
[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia !important]12. Riccardo De Corato, deputy vice mayor of Milan, Italy[/FONT]
October, 2010: “These are dark-skinned people, not Europeans like you and me …. Our final goal is to have zero Gypsy camps in Milan.”

[h=1]Racist attack on a house in Belfast, Northern Ireland[/h]19 August 2013 by

 

[slant]

View attachment 19779


​

 

[Lark]

"Racism is an American thing"
— Lyin Ass White Europeans

View attachment 19771
German Chancellor Angela Merkel speaks with a carol singer dressed as one of the Three Wise Men at the Chancellery in Berlin.




Blackface is huge in Germany

View attachment 19772
Sweden’s culture minister Lena Adelsohn Liljeroth gleefully dining on a cake decorated to look like a blackface caricature of an African woman, replete with blood-red insides and a live actor posing as the head of the creation; donning an afro and a painted face while the rest of his body was hidden beneath the table.

More info

View attachment 19773
France is as islamophobic as fuck
"Vandals have desecrated 148 Muslim graves in France's biggest WWI cemetery, officials have said.A pig's head was hung from one headstone and slogans insulting Islam and France's Muslim justice minister were daubed on other graves."
View attachment 19774
A racist sign in County Tyrone drew wide-spread attention.

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/ac...ywhere-238579651-239670401.html#ixzz2u5sb3rgL
Follow us: @IrishCentral on Twitter | IrishCentral on Facebook
View attachment 19775
[FONT=Georgia !important]1. Gilles Bourdouleix, member of National Assembly, France[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia !important]July 21, 2013: “Maybe Hitler didn’t kill enough of them.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia !important](Note: The Nazis and their partner countries killed up to 220,000 Roma during the Holocaust.)
View attachment 19776
[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia !important]2. Manuel Valls, minister of the interior and member of the National Assembly, France[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia !important]Sept. 25, 2013: “The majority [of Roma] should be delivered back to the borders. We arenot here to welcome these people. I'd remind you of [former Socialist Premier] Michel Rocard's statement: ‘It's not France's job to deal with the misery of the whole world.’”[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia !important](Note: Valls was born in Barcelona to Spanish immigrant parents.)
[/FONT]View attachment 19777
[FONT=Georgia !important]12. Riccardo De Corato, deputy vice mayor of Milan, Italy[/FONT]
October, 2010: “These are dark-skinned people, not Europeans like you and me …. Our final goal is to have zero Gypsy camps in Milan.”
View attachment 19778
Racist attack on a house in Belfast, Northern Ireland

19 August 2013 by

Yeah, you did a bit of work there to find all that, so I guess I'd suspect there's a need for some sort of confirmation of your thinking driving this.

Consequently I dont think there's anything to discuss, I told you I'm not racist and that'd invalidate your generalisation, you dont appear to want to take my word for that, which is alright. Just leaves no room what so ever for discussion.

 

[La Sagna]

[MENTION=528]slant[/MENTION] and [MENTION=933]Seraphim[/MENTION]

I understand where your coming from on this. I do believe that racism is systemically ingrained and that 'white' people need to do some serious self-evaluation and be open to the possibility of having ingrained biases.

That being said, unless you have seen into every white person's heart and witnessed what they have done in their lives you can not make such a generalized statement and know that it is true.

I know several people in bi-racial relationships, do you believe that the 'white' person in those couples is a racist?

I have a way of looking at things that I personally believes helps me monitor any biases that I have. I have the view that even if there was only one person of any group that is not the 'stereotypical' example or doesn't match the idea that I might have of what a person from that group is like then it is unfair to generalize and label all of them as such. Which means that even if every person of a certain group that I have met have behaved in a certain way and therefore can give me the impression that people from that group all have that way of being I cannot assume that all of them are like that and it would be unfair to any that aren't that way, even if there was only one. This applies to any group, which means that I have that policy for minority racial groups but also for 'white' people. Therefore even if most white people I would have met would be racist I would not assume that they all are.

I do not know what it feels like to be from a minority racial group or to be discriminated against because of my race. What I do know is how it feels to be judged and discriminated against because of the 'group' that I was born into. I have to say I know this is nowhere near the experience that people who have been subject to racism have faced but I do think that it gives me a little 'window' into the frustration that is caused of being judged just because of the culture you come from. I am French-Canadian and there are some English-Canadians with huge biases against anybody from my cultural group. I have experienced this first-hand, even from people who consider themselves my 'friends', and have been judged and mistreated simply because of the concept that they have of what being a French-Canadian means. I can tell you that I have met some really bad French-Canadians and I don't want to be judged by people as being anything like they are. This little bit of perspective has helped me to put myself in other people's shoes so that if I meet people of a specific minority group that have a certain trait I will never assume that they all do. That would be completely unfair.

In Canada I believe our biggest problem of racism and marginalization is against aboriginal Canadians. It is in my opinion a much bigger problem than racism against black Canadians (although I don't deny that that can also be a problem). There also seems to be some strong racism happening between different immigrant minority groups in the big cities which are not 'white' groups. I think this demonstrates that racism comes in many different forms and between many different groups. There is definitely racism around the world but it does not necessarily resemble the racism happening in the United-States.

My sons grew up surrounded by a real mix of all sorts of different races and this way of growing up in my opinion is the best way to eradicate racism. Emphasizing our common humanity and celebrating all cultural backgrounds as being equal helps develop an inclusive society. Around the age of 10 or so my youngest son asked me a question that made me realize that he had no concept of the idea of different races. I unfortunately had to explain to him the idea that people have about 'races' and about racism. I knew it was important for him to be aware of this but I wished that I didn't even have to explain it to him since it was something that was absent in his world which included friends which came from many different racial groups. I do not believe that my sons are racist at all. The way they grew up so diminished the 'us vs them' idea of different races that to them having dark skin as opposed to light skin is no different than having brown eyes as opposed to blue eyes (one of them has brown eyes and the other has blue eyes).

 

[Gktr]

View attachment 19772
Sweden’s culture minister Lena Adelsohn Liljeroth gleefully dining on a cake decorated to look like a blackface caricature of an African woman, replete with blood-red insides and a live actor posing as the head of the creation; donning an afro and a painted face while the rest of his body was hidden beneath the table.

More info

I'm curious about the relevance this particular case, because the artist who created the cake and whose head is used in the installation is not exactly white:

Are you saying that the culture minister is racist because she participated in the event created by Mr. Linde in order to bring attention to the issue of female genital mutilation?