[PUG] All white people are racist and must confront their racism

[ThisIsWhoIAm]

I haven't focussed on one ethnicity....why are you trying to twist what i've said?

Before you go throwing nasty accusations at people you should really know what you are talking about first. I suggest you go back and read my posts.

You will find that i have spoken out against the nazis, the british establishment, the US establishment as well as the jewish establishment

If you look at my posts elsewhere you will find me speaking out against the Roman Catholic church, the N.Korean government, the Chinese government and many others

The common theme through all my posts is that I BELIEVE THAT WHENEVER THERE IS CENTRALISED POWER THERE IS CORRUPTION AND EXPLOITATION

I am british and yet i have criticised my own countries establishment because i am disgusted at many of the things they have done. I also want to see a global community develop where ALL peoples can live together in peace and tolerance; nationalism however is a divisive concept.

This is where i overlap with the globalists / state socialists / illuminati or whatever terms you want to use to describe them because i too want to see a global community but the difference is i don't want it to be centrally controlled, i want the people to manage their own communities free from oppressive elites

I have also criticised the establishment in your country. Do you feel that as an ex member of the military of that country that you still have nationalistic feelings and that those are preventing you from reading my posts in an objective way?

Don't take what i'm saying personally, if we were in the 1940's right now i would be speaking out against nazism and condemning their treatment of the jews. But i am not living then, i am living in 2013 and the elite who defeated the nazis were the international bankers that Hitler wrote and spoke about

The international bankers won and just like the nazis they have blurred government and corporate powers. Those bankers are also zionists so i am simply speaking out against the fascists of my day

You obviously take much joy from posting irrelevant and silly movies of soldiers brutally not-hurting palestinian kids, which has nothing to do with zionist bankers, so don't act all coy and wonderful all of a sudden.

Of course i have nationalistic feelings, anyone who has feeling would have those. Nonetheless, i don't have any problem in criticizing my country when needed, and in fact i do a lot.
But i fight against hatred in all forms, including anti jew hatred that i see online.

Just as you take personally how the so called world government is trying to control you, i take personally when more hatred is thrown at me and my people, just because it's comfortable to do so, and it's so trendy.

I would appreciate as a jew that when you speak out against the fascists of your day, you don't only speak about how jews are plotting to take over the world while posting all kinds of videos which are clearly anti israeli, disguising it as a mere critisism on the fascists of your day.

If you want to spread hatred, do so by all means, just don't act all coy and innocent.

If you want to spread real knowledge and useful theories, don't look for someone to blame and throw all of your hatred on.

As i said, jews are not holy by any means, and are no different from anyone else. Just don't act like they are by picturing them as the seed of all that is evil and wrong.

 

[Apone]

Race relationships are complex and there are still a lot in the African community who believe that whites and blacks shouldn't have children together. If you think about it, it makes sense, because for hundreds of years white people have forced themselves on Africans by raping their women on plantations and have unwillingly had the children of the white man. If the white person is not enlightened in race or willing to educate themselves, they may end up erasing black culture instead of embracing it and raising their children lacking the understanding of their racial identity despite having one parent that belongs to it. There are a lot of people in the black community that would see such people who marry into white as "traitors" and "trying to act white" and I do think that it's a valid argument considering that there is a very specific way a black person has to act in order to be accepted into a white community, or really, any race that is non-white.

I'm beginning to realize the point of this thread: to celebrate black racism and condone segregation.

In a single paragraph you've jumped from slavery to modern times while completely ignoring the most socially progressive decades of all (for Western society, at least). You've also mounted a deeply racist argument against interracial relationships. Seriously, you might as well come out and say 'I'm so sick of these white men stealing our women!'. But then, I don't even know if you are black or not-- you could be just a really mixed up white guy with a massive guilt complex who thinks that this is the way to go. White people are not a threat to black culture-- mostly because culture is fluid, and American culture isn't strictly white-- it's supposed to be a culture of openness and diversity, which is why it was known as a 'melting pot'-- leading to things like hip hop and rock n roll and Quentin Tarantino and Barack Obama. I don't think that there's anything particularly 'white' about Obama-- and if you seriously think there is, then I would be interested in hearing exactly how you think a black president is supposed to act… maybe you mean giving special rights and privileges to black people and not white people?

Believe it or not, white people don't have rules for who they want to spend their time with… but yes, if you are constantly reminding the white person of slavery and rape and plantations and doing your best to make the white person feel uncomfortable and get upset when they don't feel guilty, then they probably won't want to hang out with you. Actually, I'd be willing to bet that some of them still would… there's that much guilt going around.

And hey, here's something interesting: most of the black slaves in Europe and America were bought by white people were bought from other black people. But somehow, when black people rape their black slaves, it's not as much of a crime as when white people do it. And did you know that there are more slaves in the world RIGHT NOW than there ever were during the time when white people were participating in the slave trade (which was largely run by the Arabs, btw)? And a lot of the modern day slaves are in Africa? And here's something you've also ignored: while black slavery was booming, WHITE PEOPLE WERE SLAVES TOO... or they were living in conditions that were practically slavery.

 

[acd]

@slant I think it's pretty odd that you, a white girl, are speaking out to preserve your idea of "black culture."
If an African American wants to keep their "race" and culture "pure" then they can choose to do that on their own. I'm sure they don't need you doing it for them. I have never known an African American who shared your concerns, though. That all sounds pretty extremist and radical.

 

[this is only temporary]

I've heard that put forth as an argument, that black women should only date black men, to preserve the culture. I don't agree with it, of course, but I know a fair few interracial couples and they've encountered this ---erm--- philosophy or whatever it is. Hitler crap. It happens. I also had a white friend who dated a Zuni man and he told her he could not have children with her because they would be mixed. So yeah... extremist and radical happens. Fortunately, I think the majority of people in the world today are mostly above this sort of thing, it's 2013, moving right along, people.

 

[WellNoWonder]

I don't get the comparisons of levels of slavery. Shit is all bad yo.

I tend to view these things on a macro level in regards to racism, as I've realized feeding separatist ideas has little to do with actual racism than it has to do with money and social/political power. Any ass can say, "I hate black people" but where is his/her power? I'm not gonna worry about the person with skewed views collecting government assistance as much as I'd worry about the person who has collected enough electoral votes to decide I'm not worthy to certain rights as a minority.

I have always been somewhat fascinated by the similarities between poor and working-class white and black people in America, but these two groups will have nothing to do with each other. The health issues are virtually the same, the vices are comparable, the attitudes towards people of other ethnicities, religions, etc, same. Not to say ALL think that way, but it's more common than not.

I personally do not hold white people to task on racism. I can't because I know it's not that simple and it was not that simple in slavery days; this has always been a money-driven culture and slavery was about making easy money off of controlled naivety (racism and fear, fear of massuh and fear of uncivilized negroes). When that control was lost, and black people said "Fuck this" and political powers realized the shit was gonna get far uglier than they could imagine, this country wasn't expecting it thus the hurry to legislation and so forth. There's been a fallout that has been cultural and fiscal and it's ongoing.

I really don't KNOW what white people should do. I don't know what black people should do. It's obvious there are differences between us, I don't believe in that "color-blind" shit, and it's okay to have variety. I think on an individual level, we can be aware and don't fall into this race shit, because that's a part of how we are controlled as a society.

 

[ThisIsWhoIAm]

I don't get the comparisons of levels of slavery. Shit is all bad yo.

I tend to view these things on a macro level in regards to racism, as I've realized feeding separatist ideas has little to do with actual racism than it has to do with money and social/political power. Any ass can say, "I hate black people" but where is his/her power? I'm not gonna worry about the person with skewed views collecting government assistance as much as I'd worry about the person who has collected enough electoral votes to decide I'm not worthy to certain rights as a minority.

I have always been somewhat fascinated by the similarities between poor and working-class white and black people in America, but these two groups will have nothing to do with each other. The health issues are virtually the same, the vices are comparable, the attitudes towards people of other ethnicities, religions, etc, same. Not to say ALL think that way, but it's more common than not.

I personally do not hold white people to task on racism. I can't because I know it's not that simple and it was not that simple in slavery days; this has always been a money-driven culture and slavery was about making easy money off of controlled naivety (racism and fear, fear of massuh and fear of uncivilized negroes). When that control was lost, and black people said "Fuck this" and political powers realized the shit was gonna get far uglier than they could imagine, this country wasn't expecting it thus the hurry to legislation and so forth. There's been a fallout that has been cultural and fiscal and it's ongoing.

I really don't KNOW what white people should do. I don't know what black people should do. It's obvious there are differences between us, I don't believe in that "color-blind" shit, and it's okay to have variety. I think on an individual level, we can be aware and don't fall into this race shit, because that's a part of how we are controlled as a society.

You raise a very powerful point, about the money as a motive for many actions in the US (one of the ugly sides of all cultures and countries) and i mostly agree with everything you said.

As for what can white people do, or black people do, or any human being do to improve our acceptance among different races, in my opinion, is to raise discussions, just like we are doing here. This way you
raise awareness of the situation, and also people may find an 'upgrade' to their concept of racism, and maybe even find reasons to abandon their old separatist views, among the more enlightened and down to earth views they hear/read.

Let the talks continue!

 

[Stu]

....You've also mounted a deeply racist argument against interracial relationships.....

Honestly, if this is the first time you have been exposed to some of the ideas in Black separatism you should get out more. Slant was only alluding to the ideas not embracing them or promoting them. I am quite sure she is also aware of the heavy doses of misogyny that is coupled with many of those ideas.

It is misguided to believe our racial problems are all on the road to being ironed out with a little more social progression.

 

[Kmal]

That is a very narrow way of looking at things. It's possible to be married to someone of a different race and still have incredibly racist views and tendencies. In fact, marrying outside of your race deliberately in order to curb racism often times inhibits racism more than it does to solve it. Race relationships are complex and there are still a lot in the African community who believe that whites and blacks shouldn't have children together. If you think about it, it makes sense, because for hundreds of years white people have forced themselves on Africans by raping their women on plantations and have unwillingly had the children of the white man. If the white person is not enlightened in race or willing to educate themselves, they may end up erasing black culture instead of embracing it and raising their children lacking the understanding of their racial identity despite having one parent that belongs to it. There are a lot of people in the black community that would see such people who marry into white as "traitors" and "trying to act white" and I do think that it's a valid argument considering that there is a very specific way a black person has to act in order to be accepted into a white community, or really, any race that is non-white.

What? Why separate yourself from your human brother? When humans work together amazing things happen. You see that our future is brighter than ever because of certain strides we've made in our living experience. Somewhere in time we are a great race together as one living in harmony with the earth and ourselves. Somewhere in space, somewhere in frequency it exists; somewhere in the mental energy used to create it it exists.

And there, no one gives a bother about skin color because they will be at peace with it. The thing these separatists seem to be at war with.

 

[Elis]

I don't agree with your point of view. Personally, I don't think that not actively working against racism is racism. it is simply not to work against racism.

I understand the problems of not speaking up. but to me, the whole concept of consent through silence is wrong.

I myself have never attended an anti-racist meeting of any sort, and I would never see that as being racist. If I'm in presence of racism I usually speak up, or leave.


I don't think it is reasonable to account someone for what their ancestors have done, neither do I believe that we live with obligations.

disclaimer: I've only read the original post as of now.

 

[subwayrider]

I'm inclined to get on slant's side just for the apparent bandwagon.

What a complex issue, though, really.

 

[slant]

Sorry guys about ditching this thread, I developed a cold shortly after posting it and I've been ill ever since so this is gonna have to wait

 

[Paladin-X]

If I agree to hate on whitey, can I get a whitey as a slave?

 

[the]

Sorry guys about ditching this thread, I developed a cold shortly after posting it and I've been ill ever since so this is gonna have to wait

Yeah colds are real debilitating.

 

[Apone]

Honestly, if this is the first time you have been exposed to some of the ideas in Black separatism you should get out more. Slant was only alluding to the ideas not embracing them or promoting them. I am quite sure she is also aware of the heavy doses of misogyny that is coupled with many of those ideas.

It is misguided to believe our racial problems are all on the road to being ironed out with a little more social progression.

BUT:

There are a lot of people in the black community that would see such people who marry into white as "traitors" and "trying to act white" and I do think that it's a valid argument considering that there is a very specific way a black person has to act in order to be accepted into a white community, or really, any race that is non-white.

It sure sounds like she agrees.

And where I live, black separatism isn't an issue, so getting out more wouldn't really help with that. And racism isn't tolerated in the west… you can't control people's minds and make them agree with it, but the official policy is that racism is something that western institutions are trying to fight.

I currently live in an extremely homogeneous society and it IS racist and highly xenophobic-- living here has made me realize just how much is being done to discourage racism back home.

 

[arbygil]

I think, sometimes, you have to understand the idea of being discriminated against before you can recognize the subtleties of it. I agree 100% with [MENTION=2109]WellNoWonder[/MENTION]'s statement and adding to it yes, racism is still very real even when it's not overt. To go only slightly off topic, I remember reading through another forum, of White Americans who went to Japan to teach English for a few years, and running smack into racism on the other foot. Suddenly they were the minority group, and some of the things minority groups suffer - and still suffer - in the US happened to them, and they did not expect it. Very few handled it well. But the thing was, they learned about it first-hand and truly learned what discrimination as a minority group felt like.

We can all be ostracized and discriminated against in various ways. But when your own culture put infinitesimal lies in your tea and coffee, it can difficult to see the manipulation. There's also a fine line between racist notions and honest misunderstanding, and fine lines between ignorance and truth, and it can be hard to see the difference between a true cover up and a crazy conspiracy theory.

 

[Apone]

We can all be ostracized and discriminated against in various ways. But when your own culture put infinitesimal lies in your tea and coffee, it can difficult to see the manipulation.

You really can't compare Japan to the west-- I lived in Japan for two years and have lived in East Asia much longer, and while there were plenty of Japanese-only establishments in Japan, I really don't think that you could get away with a 'European Ancestry Only' bar in the west. I'm currently in Korea and when I was teaching elementary school, every single non-Korean person in their textbook was somehow made weird or creepy-- they gave the blond guy a high voice and made him sound gay, they made the black girl cartoonishly ugly, etc. One lesson featured a beauty pageant where the Korean was wearing a beautiful traditional dress, the American was wearing a cowboy outfit and the girl from Uganda was wearing a caveman rag-- the kids laughed at her when she came up, which was exactly the point.

I actually did a lesson in my middle school where the students had to think of presents to give various celebrities, and IN EVERY SINGLE CLASS, the students said that they would give Barack Obama skin whitening cream for his birthday. I'm not even joking when I say every single class-- I kept hoping there would be one that didn't say it, but there was at least one student in every class, and the rest of them always giggled about it as well-- including some teachers. I definitely don't think that white people get it as bad, but here:

http://populargusts.blogspot.kr/2013/04/for-jtbc-consensual-sex-between-white.html

Basically, anyone who isn't Korean is either a criminal, a rapist, or at the very least, some kind of predator. The mainstream media hires Russians (Koreans can't seem to tell that they have thick accents and most of them can't even speak English at all) to portray white EFL teachers as rapists and predators… not because it's true, but because they don't like it when whitey steals their women.

Living in East Asia has made me realize that the racism back home is really not so bad… obviously it's not perfect, but discrimination is punishable by law and it isn't institutional.

 

[arbygil]

[MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION], what you're describing did happen in the United States and was very prevalent in the 1930s through late 1960s - and it still happens in a smaller sense today. Racism in the west might not be as overt, but sometimes it is. Racism is racism; do we need to put a degree on it, to say racism in X-situation is better (or less) than racism in Y-situation? Is racism not racism, period?

If I stab you in the leg versus the heart, is it any less a stabbing? Did it hurt any less?

All that being said, I know about the racism in the East. But remember, they're a homogeneous culture with absolutely no knowledge of the culture in the West unless they go to the west - and even then, when they return home, they still face their home culture's prejudicial attitudes.

In my opinion the United States has far more reason to be far more ahead; we've had a mixed culture for more than two centuries - probably the most mixed of any cultures in the entire world - but we still can't get it right. If we can't, what hope is there for the rest of the world? We need to be the example for the world...but sadly we're not there yet.

Maybe things are better in some places, but until it's better all places we still have deep-seated issues that need to be addressed.

Racism is still very real in the United States and that saddens me - people say, "well that's just one isolated place" and I ask them, why does it happen at all? And then I ask, how can national magazines have trashy racist covers in this decade - and this year? Who allows that?

Bloomberg's wonderful cover from last month:


July 2008 cover of New Yorker (which seemed too uncomfortable for satire):


Lovely 2012 bumper sticker (which happened to be the TOP BEST SELLER on that person's website):


And what I read yesterday - students in Georgia want an integrated prom, but can't have one. I'm not even talking about mixed race couples; I mean black students and white students cannot be in the same prom together (story here).

I mean, at what point are we going to say enough is enough? Why should we shove things like this under the rug and call them "isolated" incidents when they keep occurring over and over again? What I'm saying is, even a "little" racism when portrayed like this tells me there's a long way to go. And maybe we're not like Japan but shouldn't we be miles ahead of the game considering our past? Enough so that we don't have things like this popping up every few months?

[/rant].

 

[Apone]

I just KNEW that someone would bring up the early 20th century-- it always happens in discussions like these. If you have to go back into the past to compare our situation to that of the rest of the world today, you know that your argument has problems.

My point about the institutional rejection of racism stands.

The covers aren't explicitly racist... the New Yorker is pro-Obama so their regular readership would have understood the satire-- the image is called 'the politics of fear' and is very much a jab at the Republican Party's portrayal of Obama. And even if it was an unsuccessful satire, the point is that unlike the Asian stuff, it isn't meant to spread fear about other races, it was meant to confront that fear. Assuming your audience is intelligent enough to get the reference (and most of the New Yorker's readership is educated and makes $100k/year) isn't the same as doing whatever you can to keep other races out of your country.

And the other cover was a)designed by an immigrant and b) more stylized than overtly racist-- it wasn't intended as a jab against anyone in particular and I think that the intent is what matters most here. Again, there's a difference between accidentally offending people or being 'edgy', and intentionally spreading fear and lies and hate.

AND the bumper sticker and the prom were private affairs paid for by private members of the community, not sanctioned by the school board or a political party. My point is that we reject institutional racism, not that we try to control what everyone thinks and does. Curbing institutional racism and actively campaigning against discrimination is all that any country can do... and in that respect, we ARE light years ahead of the rest of the world.

The only way you're going to stop racism in private affairs is with a police state... and some things are worse than tolerating racists.

ALSO: bottom line, people in the west actually get UPSET about these kinds of things. The simple fact that you think that these things are disgusting goes a long way in showing how proactive the west has been in fighting racism. I highly highly doubt that if you were living in another society that you would be rebelling against the status quo and saying that racism is a bad thing-- the reason we think that racism is wrong and bad is because it's popular opinion that racism is bad. As much as racism exists, anti-racism is also primarily a western phenomenon, especially nowadays... and I'd say that the majority of people in the west do NOT think that they are genetically superior to people of other races.

I'm not saying that racism has been wiped out in the west or that we should stop trying-- don't try to spin my argument into that. But you can't just tell people 'stop being racist' and then they'll say 'wow, okay, I've never thought of that', and you can't just focus on the negatives as if they're the majority.

 

[arbygil]

Again, [MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION], I'm saying that racism exists in America - whether the level of it is different or not makes no difference. We can excuse it as isolated but it's not; the problem is they were produced without knowledge of how another culture would react to it - meaning, there's still a lot of talking to do. If someone is offended and we're not sure why they are, it's a good idea to ask, and to get a different perspective rather than coming up with an excuse why such-and-such is okay and "not meant" a certain way.

Listen: I'm not trying to say that the East is an upstanding model; far from it. But you know what's sad? I expect other nations to have some degree of racism towards the US and minority groups in the US due to what our media has produced in the past, and I expect nations that aren't the US to have a certain degree of prejudice because they don't live here and only know what they see portrayed in our news programs, TV dramas, and comedies. As much as I don't like it I don't fault them for having those beliefs because that's more ignorance and misunderstanding in cultures that continue to be homogeneous.

But you said "Early" twentieth century. No, racism has been continuing a lot later than that, albeit in different forms. Most people know it's wrong. But even if private organizations reproduce racist rhetoric you can't tell me that it's okay and right just because they're private organizations. By that logic, so's the Westboro Baptist Church. So's the Klu Klux Klan. Are you saying we shouldn't get angry at what they say? Because that's what it sounds like. I also didn't say we should shut the WBC or KKK into the courts and prevent them from expressing their freedom of speech rights. I don't like what they say, but I can counter-protest as well. And I will.

What I'm saying, [MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION] - and hear me, because I'm not trying to tell you you're in the wrong - is that racism is racism is racism. Whether covert, overt, quiet or loud it still has a horrible effect. I would rather know that someone is racist and spewing venom in my direction than have someone quietly surprise me when I expected them to be one way and they were actually another. I have the opportunity to change people's minds by my presence if I know they have an ugly attitude. It's the hidden stuff that's a problem. And it's the stuff we allow and roll over and take when it's detrimental that's the problem.

I'm not upset with you, though, Apone. You are coming from it from another perspective, and we don't share the same perspective. But please don't expect me to say racism doesn't exist or that it's not a problem anymore. As for satire, it only works if everyone knows it's so far out of whack it can't be true. But we're not at the point yet in this nation where people see that New Yorker cover as total satire. If I had been the editor I probably would've nixed that cover. But that's me.

 

[Apone]

Again, [MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION], I'm saying that racism exists in America - whether the level of it is different or not makes no difference. We can excuse it as isolated but it's not; the problem is they were produced without knowledge of how another culture would react to it - meaning, there's still a lot of talking to do. If someone is offended and we're not sure why they are, it's a good idea to ask, and to get a different perspective rather than coming up with an excuse why such-and-such is okay and "not meant" a certain way.

Of course it exists-- but again, there's a difference between public and private affairs, and you're basically talking about forcing people to turn their backs on their parents, which is probably where they got their attitudes from... as well as their communities, and basically everything they identify with. The state can't just come in and say 'sorry, you have to think this way now'... people are going to rebel, and besides, the second you do that, ANYTHING is fair game.

And yes, intention IS the most important thing. If I accidentally scratched your car, apologized profusely AND paid for the damages, would it be fair of you to label me a vandal? You can't expect people to always behave in a perfect manner and understand the consequences of every action before it happens, and if they do something wrong, obviously feel bad about it and do everything they can to make it up to you, then it's probably best to just let it go. This is what happened with the magazine covers-- but of course, nobody actually heard the apology because they were too busy being outraged.

Listen: I'm not trying to say that the East is an upstanding model; far from it. But you know what's sad? I expect other nations to have some degree of racism towards the US and minority groups in the US due to what our media has produced in the past, and I expect nations that aren't the US to have a certain degree of prejudice because they don't live here and only know what they see portrayed in our news programs, TV dramas, and comedies. As much as I don't like it I don't fault them for having those beliefs because that's more ignorance and misunderstanding in cultures that continue to be homogeneous.

You know what this shows? It shows that we're willing to accept that we've made mistakes in the past, and also why it's important not to make them again. Do you know what other countries do? They rewrite their history books to make themselves look better. Or they just don't talk about it. This is why it seems like western society is so awful-- well, besides the fact that most westerners are ignorant of other cultures/assume that the west is the only guilty place-- because we're willing to accept a more honest portrayal of our past mistakes and try to learn from them in order to improve. This is because Western society is controlled by guilt and Eastern society is controlled by shame... the difference being in one case it's wrong if you feel guilty about something (meaning people will be driven to 'explain' these things away), and in the other, it's only wrong if it becomes public (meaning people will be driven to conceal their past indiscretions to avoid the shame of admitting them).

But you said "Early" twentieth century. No, racism has been continuing a lot later than that, albeit in different forms. Most people know it's wrong. But even if private organizations reproduce racist rhetoric you can't tell me that it's okay and right just because they're private organizations. By that logic, so's the Westboro Baptist Church. So's the Klu Klux Klan. Are you saying we shouldn't get angry at what they say? Because that's what it sounds like. I also didn't say we should shut the WBC or KKK into the courts and prevent them from expressing their freedom of speech rights. I don't like what they say, but I can counter-protest as well. And I will.

Still, there's no sense in bringing up the past because it's impossible to change that... what IS relevant is how far we've come, what the majority of the culture is like, what popular opinion says, etc. It's also not fair to compare present day America to ancient Sparta and say 'wow, those Greeks kill their deformed and weak children.. we really ought to do something about that'.

And OF COURSE you can get upset with what those people say, my point is that you can't force them not to say it in the first place, which is what it seems like you're advocating.

What I'm saying, [MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION] - and hear me, because I'm not trying to tell you you're in the wrong - is that racism is racism is racism. Whether covert, overt, quiet or loud it still has a horrible effect. I would rather know that someone is racist and spewing venom in my direction than have someone quietly surprise me when I expected them to be one way and they were actually another. I have the opportunity to change people's minds by my presence if I know they have an ugly attitude. It's the hidden stuff that's a problem. And it's the stuff we allow and roll over and take when it's detrimental that's the problem.

I'm not upset with you, though, Apone. You are coming from it from another perspective, and we don't share the same perspective. But please don't expect me to say racism doesn't exist or that it's not a problem anymore. As for satire, it only works if everyone knows it's so far out of whack it can't be true. But we're not at the point yet in this nation where people see that New Yorker cover as total satire. If I had been the editor I probably would've nixed that cover. But that's me.

Yes, by all means, fight racism. And I never once said that it doesn't exist, I'm saying that on an institutional and even cultural level, it is discouraged in the west... you seem to be advocating a magic happy Benetton rainbow land where everyone loves everyone and is colorblind as the only acceptable way of life, and I'm saying that realistically, the west is probably ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to fighting racism.

The only reason that the New Yorker cover didn't seem so out of whack is because the Republican party is a bunch of clowns and we've come to accept this kind of thing as normal.