Matty
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It sounds like borderline personality disorder to me. Obsessing over one person that intensely, after a short time, and for that long afterwards isn't relatable and sounds profoundly dysfunctional.
Anyone met a Twin Flame?
- Thread starter David Nelson
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When I said this, I failed to make clear that I thought two people engaging in this pattern of behavior is a red flag.
Not just a red flag, but a full-on Sino-Soviet military parade.
the following courtesy @Sandie33
Cheers,
Ian
David Nelson
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But what if your feelings are running on empty and you feel dead inside? Totally unmotivated to do anything.When I said this, I failed to make clear that I thought two people engaging in this pattern of behavior is a red flag.
Not just a red flag, but a full-on Sino-Soviet military parade.
the following courtesy @Sandie33
Cheers,
Ian
dig deep and find something to re-ignight your inner spark
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You seek out a clinician and get evaluated for depressive disorder.
You evaluate, with help, your current nutrition, exercise regimen, and sleep hygiene, and adjust as necessary.
You begin a process of self-work, which may include regular sessions with a therapist.
You end current patterns of behavior which are counter to your recovery and well-being.
That’s a start. Your current internal state isn’t suited to starting a relationship—not for you, and especially not for anyone else.
When you are well, as evidenced by living your life as best you can, alone, you’ll be in a fantastic place to share your life with someone else.
Cheers,
Ian
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I believe certain experiences have a profound impact on us and change us and that sometimes those experiences are attached to people and sometimes to events, or art and music, or even places. When we need to grow because we're stuck or struggling or we're at a stage in life where change is supposed to happen (like our teens, twenties, forties, etc), there will be a catalyst for change of some kind. Often, when we need a tug out of a mental, emotional, or stagnant life situation, we will grasp onto that change.
When there is a profound impact or feeling of connection for one person, the other may not feel it. It doesn't make the catalyst (for change or growth) any less meaningful, but it takes awareness to read it correctly. Sometimes we are not in a position to read it correctly, or it hits us too hard because we have a chink in the armor where the significance hit. ...We're suffering from depression, being in the grip, loss, or other issues that are unresolved, and the loss of a meaningful moment (the end of a friendship or short romance, for example) hits us harder than it should. It's less about the catalyst than it is about us.
It's unfair to label people with significance that is not mutual. It's also an easy way to make sure they run in the other direction if the feeling isn't mutual. Sometimes people rock our worlds and crack our shells open and that's the end of it.
Sometimes our fellow beings are significant. Sometimes it is mutual. That doesn't mean your life paths are parallel. Sometimes they cross momentarily. Some encounters are meant to be short. What did you learn? How did you grow? Can you accept this with grace? This is one of the hardest things to learn about life. I messed up on it recently even though I know and admire this life rule and have had plenty of profound moments with both humans and animals that shook me and will stay with me forever, despite never seeing them again.
Sometimes you are meant to stay together. I think people use the term "soulmates" too loosely, too, though. And I also don't buy that whole, "We have many soulmates," stuff. We don't.
When there is a profound impact or feeling of connection for one person, the other may not feel it. It doesn't make the catalyst (for change or growth) any less meaningful, but it takes awareness to read it correctly. Sometimes we are not in a position to read it correctly, or it hits us too hard because we have a chink in the armor where the significance hit. ...We're suffering from depression, being in the grip, loss, or other issues that are unresolved, and the loss of a meaningful moment (the end of a friendship or short romance, for example) hits us harder than it should. It's less about the catalyst than it is about us.
It's unfair to label people with significance that is not mutual. It's also an easy way to make sure they run in the other direction if the feeling isn't mutual. Sometimes people rock our worlds and crack our shells open and that's the end of it.
Sometimes our fellow beings are significant. Sometimes it is mutual. That doesn't mean your life paths are parallel. Sometimes they cross momentarily. Some encounters are meant to be short. What did you learn? How did you grow? Can you accept this with grace? This is one of the hardest things to learn about life. I messed up on it recently even though I know and admire this life rule and have had plenty of profound moments with both humans and animals that shook me and will stay with me forever, despite never seeing them again.
Sometimes you are meant to stay together. I think people use the term "soulmates" too loosely, too, though. And I also don't buy that whole, "We have many soulmates," stuff. We don't.
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I don't believe in twin flames at all, but what you are describing is extremely familiar to me and I've felt it before. It reminds me A LOT A of this thread I made several years ago: https://www.infjs.com/threads/why-is-this-happening-to-me.36540/
Essentially, I was obsessed with this open mic host and was for at least a year. In the exact same way that you describe with this girl. I got his phone number and would text him but he never really texted back a lot, he would talk to me at the mic some nights and was really friendly and then other times wasn't. I felt very connected him, and I was convinced he also felt connected to me even though his behavior towards me was hot and cold.
In order to explain the behavior I was also convinced he was sending secret messages to me through his behavior. It was a whole bunch of mental gymnastics that I did because I REALLY wanted him to like me as much as I liked him, and I never confronted him about it because I didn't want him to reject me, so I thought, oh well, eventually it will just happen. I can convince him somehow of what I know he feels about me deep down.
The last 3 years after that were really hard but great years because it happened to me over and over again with different people. I realized I was experiencing limerence because I never dealt with my childhood trauma and thought love was going to solve all of my problems. I felt love was the only thing that would complete me as a person because I had never been loved before, not even by the people who were supposed to love me, my parents. I did not think I was lovable or worthy of love and I genuinely believed that because of that, I needed to cling to people who were nice to me and convince them to fall in love with me because I needed that.
I finally learned to stop objectifying men that I found sexually attractive and look for people who are actually compatible with me on a life level. They were not my fantasy- they did not bring me larger than life highs or the feeling that if I didn't have them I would die. It was less exciting. But it was real. I am in my first long term relationship and I'm learning how to love somebody finally. All because I stopped pursuing people who didn't want to be with me and was realistic about what would actually be compatible with me instead of this ideal image of the type of person who if they loved me would make me lovable. Stopped trying to win people over.
I can't speak on your experiences, and I'm sure what I experienced wasn't what would be considered a real twin flame according to the theory. But I relate to what you are saying... Whether or not I really experienced what you're talking about or not.
I decided to stop living in fantasy and live in reality... Because that was what was real. I didn't need to tell myself stories or live in hope anymore. I could handle the truth, no matter how lonely or painful. I learned to survive. And I still found happiness. In fact... That's the only reason I did.
Essentially, I was obsessed with this open mic host and was for at least a year. In the exact same way that you describe with this girl. I got his phone number and would text him but he never really texted back a lot, he would talk to me at the mic some nights and was really friendly and then other times wasn't. I felt very connected him, and I was convinced he also felt connected to me even though his behavior towards me was hot and cold.
In order to explain the behavior I was also convinced he was sending secret messages to me through his behavior. It was a whole bunch of mental gymnastics that I did because I REALLY wanted him to like me as much as I liked him, and I never confronted him about it because I didn't want him to reject me, so I thought, oh well, eventually it will just happen. I can convince him somehow of what I know he feels about me deep down.
The last 3 years after that were really hard but great years because it happened to me over and over again with different people. I realized I was experiencing limerence because I never dealt with my childhood trauma and thought love was going to solve all of my problems. I felt love was the only thing that would complete me as a person because I had never been loved before, not even by the people who were supposed to love me, my parents. I did not think I was lovable or worthy of love and I genuinely believed that because of that, I needed to cling to people who were nice to me and convince them to fall in love with me because I needed that.
I finally learned to stop objectifying men that I found sexually attractive and look for people who are actually compatible with me on a life level. They were not my fantasy- they did not bring me larger than life highs or the feeling that if I didn't have them I would die. It was less exciting. But it was real. I am in my first long term relationship and I'm learning how to love somebody finally. All because I stopped pursuing people who didn't want to be with me and was realistic about what would actually be compatible with me instead of this ideal image of the type of person who if they loved me would make me lovable. Stopped trying to win people over.
I can't speak on your experiences, and I'm sure what I experienced wasn't what would be considered a real twin flame according to the theory. But I relate to what you are saying... Whether or not I really experienced what you're talking about or not.
I decided to stop living in fantasy and live in reality... Because that was what was real. I didn't need to tell myself stories or live in hope anymore. I could handle the truth, no matter how lonely or painful. I learned to survive. And I still found happiness. In fact... That's the only reason I did.
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Bruh, same
You aren't going to get any meaningful or worthwhile input on your situation on this list. The good news for you is I saw you post and helped you out. The bad news for you is I saw your post and I helped you out. The thread was going moderately OK until I responded and now they are ought from the floor boards. By their "rules" (which change depending on who needs to be put in their place at any given time, as I have also pointed out) I don't play well with others and need to be silenced.
The observations have been rather humorous......Borderline is a particularly entertaining shot in the dark. There used to be a TwinFlames list but it went under when the powers that be decided only one philosophy was acceptable. Even with warnings they pursued their agenda and it has been non-functional for multiple years. However, you might want to try and find it and read thru the archives (which are extensive). You will know you have found it when you see posts essentially only from Doctor8. You may also want to track down the website Era of Light, not particularly twinflame oriented but metaphysical in nature.
https://twinflameguides.com/twinflame-myths/
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/twinsoulsandsoulmates/general-discussion-f2/
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dZpADTLrPmX4c
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this is such a good post. Thank you @slant it wouldn't let me like twice
David Nelson
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I think one difference between your experiences and mine, is my interest is not based on sexual attraction. It’s mainly cerebral (mind/soul). Also, other than her age, I don’t consider her out of my league in attractiveness or intelligence. It’s not an unrealistic fantasy thing. I’ve seen prettier girls/women. And ones with sexier bodies.
John K
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Well said Ian.When I said this, I failed to make clear that I thought two people engaging in this pattern of behavior is a red flag.
Not just a red flag, but a full-on Sino-Soviet military parade.
the following courtesy @Sandie33
Cheers,
Ian
Just looking at the OP video again, I feel that there are serious risks associated with the concept. My deep instinct is to recoil from the idea of a soul that is in two parts, a single thing split between a man and a woman. For me, there’s a faint hint of horcrux about it.
Maybe using Jungian concepts would help clarify my unease. What seems to be expressed in the video is the equivalent of a man projecting his anima onto a woman. The anima is a female personality that all men have within them, that they are not normally consciously aware of, and which connects us to our unconscious self. Our anima is critical in helping us fulfil our deepest nature in the lifelong quest for wholeness - but it can also badly lead us astray. It becomes very active if our ego is in discord with our deep inner self.
It’s very risky projecting our anima very strongly onto another person when we are in such a discord, because we then seek our inner wholeness externally - it’s like trying to reach the greatest treasure in the world lying in the deepest depths of the sea by flying to the moon. There is a serious risk that not only will we fail to gain our wholeness, but may damage the woman we are pursuing. Most women won’t identify with a man’s anima very easily - for instance they can be rivals, they will conflict almost certainly with her own sense of who she is, and at worst the man’s anima may be a path to the den of Cthulhu for her. In extreme cases, I suspect this kind of myth has been the starting point and rationale of more than one stalking experience - though of course only a small number of men who act out the twin flame myth will go as far as that.
OK, Jung’s psychology of the unconscious is controversial but I think it’s vocabulary expresses my concern well here. The spiritual language used in the video is what gives me the feeling that the comparison is valid. It’s the split soul, the idea of ego death, the use of metaphors based on deep mystical experience such as dark night of the soul and enlightenment. These all relate very well to Jung’s idea of psychological incompleteness and of the process of individuation. I feel very strongly that they are inappropriate as expressed in this twin flames context and will confirm or lead people into the wrong sort of spiritual darkness. Our personal wholeness can only be found deep inside ourselves, not in another. That doesn't mean people cannot share their inner journeys part of the way, and that's a truly wonderful thing, but to seek salvation in another person can only end up in heartache. Two people with relatively complete souls can merge into one beautiful thing over a lifetime, but that's not at all the same thing.
@David Nelson I’m expressing concern about the twin flame concept itself here, not with how you relate to it. I’m very much with some of the others here, though, who suggest that the starting point for healing is perhaps to let go both of this concept and of the young lady you are so strongly attracted to. The pain you describe is awful, but I don’t feel you can escape from it down this particular road.
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@John K I like the way you reframed this in Jungian terms. Twin Flame theory as a theory doesn't bother me, but as a practice it reminds me of how you describe it - leading people into the wrong sort of spiritual darkness. And on a personal level, it's often came across as somehow grandiose and excessive.
I do have biases; the people who've called me their twin flame, I felt nothing at all like that for, and they similarly were convinced I was repressing my feelings for them or in denial or would otherwise come around. It did not give me a good impression.
The others I've seen embrace it as an identity for their relationship, ended ruinously - there's a difference between struggle that leads to growth and struggle that leads to stagnation.
We can grow from almost any terrible thing that besets us so long as it doesn't kill us. Unless we perceive things clearly though, our foibles tend to lead us in circles by our nose. Anything encouraging that doesn't help.
That said, I understand why somebody would embrace the idea. In all likelihood I'll never have a 'normal' relationship and for others who feel that way, a chance at lightning in a bottle may seem preferable to lifelong solitude, however peaceful. Only that we don't deceive ourselves along the way, is my concern.
Which is to say, if I'm going to be in an unhealthy relationship, I'll say it for what it is. At least that way it's something that can teach me about life.
I do have biases; the people who've called me their twin flame, I felt nothing at all like that for, and they similarly were convinced I was repressing my feelings for them or in denial or would otherwise come around. It did not give me a good impression.
The others I've seen embrace it as an identity for their relationship, ended ruinously - there's a difference between struggle that leads to growth and struggle that leads to stagnation.
We can grow from almost any terrible thing that besets us so long as it doesn't kill us. Unless we perceive things clearly though, our foibles tend to lead us in circles by our nose. Anything encouraging that doesn't help.
That said, I understand why somebody would embrace the idea. In all likelihood I'll never have a 'normal' relationship and for others who feel that way, a chance at lightning in a bottle may seem preferable to lifelong solitude, however peaceful. Only that we don't deceive ourselves along the way, is my concern.
Which is to say, if I'm going to be in an unhealthy relationship, I'll say it for what it is. At least that way it's something that can teach me about life.
Enso
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If you think about it, the more you pump someone else up and chase them at the same time, the more you actually aggrandise yourself by association and invest in the need for something external to complete you. It also increases the likelihood of projection. It's kinda of an ego cocktail.
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Thank you for voicing this. Your Jungian explanation is the best I've read on this topic.
My impulse is to recoil as well but when blocking something out is my initial reaction, I try to remain open and consider it, or at least consider how someone would arrive at the conclusion. In the past, I've just said twin flames don't exist. This time I tried to discuss moments that feel like meeting twin flames. (I still think twin flames don't exist, but the feeling definitely does.)
My aversion stems from being told I'm someone's soulmate, twin flame, wife in a different dimension, etc, many times by men I feel no romantic (or deep "soul") attraction to. It feels like possessiveness and it is involuntary on my part. No, you can't just decide I belong to you. I admit this is partially my fault because when I make friends with people, I get deep with them and I am empathetic and patient, which is a common bond for me to have with friends, but uncommon for some others. It helped that all of these people also thought I was pretty. Nobody's twin flame is the person they find least physically attractive in the room. :/
None of us is missing anything we can find in other people. The only way to feel whole is to work on oneself.
David Nelson
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Nature has not made us to be happy on our own, except for brief periods. Note someone claiming a soulmate can be wrong, and TW is not the same as soulmate.
Also, the experience of falling in love is not easy to rationalise no matter what anyone says. It can easily be categorised as a mild? form of mental illness, but it is still real and can give nothing but positive things. I suspect the feelings are different for different people, so the same word limits all understandings via discussions. When discussions get into ‘its not healthy to put your happiness in another person’s hands’, I think this comes from too logical a place. No one lives like this in a deep, romantic loving way.
Also, the experience of falling in love is not easy to rationalise no matter what anyone says. It can easily be categorised as a mild? form of mental illness, but it is still real and can give nothing but positive things. I suspect the feelings are different for different people, so the same word limits all understandings via discussions. When discussions get into ‘its not healthy to put your happiness in another person’s hands’, I think this comes from too logical a place. No one lives like this in a deep, romantic loving way.
Sidis Coruscatis
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That's exactly right, and that's the way I used to explain my own experience back then. It was like walking into a cathedral with sunlit stained glass creating the most alluring symbols. It was living in art, on the precipice of order and chaos, and falling into chaos. Beautiful and utter madness.