Are all men pigs? Or are women secret swines as well?

[Ookami]

I'm sorry but I still think you just don't grasp to the extent, what all is being said here. I never once said a woman raised without parents would end up thinking like a man, I never even came close to insinuating that.

I actually just used your argument against you. It's simple you're stating that the world shouldn't have roles, (not rolls) and then you said "if you were raised on the same planet I was, regardless of your parental situation, you were influenced to think like a male.". I countered this by replacing myself (a male) with a female. The sentence doesn't change but according to you currently (for what you just said above) the roles would change. I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. If a female was raised like you said above. On the same planet as you, with my parental situation, then she would be influenced to think like a male.

Now do you understand? I can bridge gaps and find meanings too. Basically you're arguing that we shouldn't have roles, but then assumed the roles were still in place. You're currently in the fault here and I'm very intrigued to see how you'll react. Probably by saying I don't understand.

I said if someone was raised without social expectation they would end up being who they want to be. Men could be men, women could be women, but the thing is it wouldn't matter because people wouldn't see it as being male or female. Simply being a human. It's this concept you either don't grasp or seem to ignore.

No, what you said was very direct. I'd still be a male even if I wasn't raised that way. Basically 'Even if no one raised you. You'd still think like a male.' You can say that is not what you stated but you know damn well that I have backed you into a corner. You should just give up and tell me I've won. We're after the same goal anyway.

I see humans as being humans and most humans are stupid. I grasp it, and I don't ignore it. You're just assuming I do for some reason even though, in my mind, my arguments say otherwise, or maybe you just haven't noticed that I normally add at the end of each of my arguments things like.

"People (Males & Females) will not allow this idea to go through. Human's don't want something like this." See, I very clearly looked past gender and straight to people. Hell, I've been preaching that it's psychology of humans and human nature as to why it would fail.

I've now became very serious in this argument and am now dedicating 90% of my time too it. You have a couple choices here, but I will only state the two major ones. Choice A) You can admit that we're after the samething, and wave the white flag. Choice B) You can continue and I will fight and fight and fight. You're talking to someone who never gives up and can always find a way out of a whole, and currently I believe you're the one in the whole thus that will only make it worse because I'll keep pushing you down it.

And about the quote, it wouldn't strip identity from anyone. It would be stipping the identity you assigned them, but in a world where they are free to be who they want they wouldn't know any different. People wouldn't see it as loosing their identity, because that would mean there are social expectations of them to be male or female. In fact, they would see your point of view as trying to control who they are.

I believe I said that, and am now wondering why you restated what I said with my "True Identity" comment. The only part you're wrong about is this is an Sensor world. People would see it as losing a piece of themselves. Just like if you were to call my ideas or theories stupid. I'd get defensive and attack you with full force till I beat them into you, just joking, I'd probably just continue to argue until you admitted my opinion was my opinion and you couldn't change it, because I'm stubborn. NTs = Ideas are Self STs = Identity is self.

The problem with people seeing your POV as a means to control is that sometimes you get good advice from people. I'm 100% against control. I hate to be controlled. I hate to be ordered around, but if you were to offer your opinoin as just that 'your opinion'. I'd be more likely to listen to you.

Magic Red Ink of Power! I chose you!

 

[Ookami]

That's a bad thing? True identity is not prefered over prescribed identity?

You too. I never said it was a bad thing. I just said it's what people would think :/ Geeze you guys need to read closer and between the lines. I use a lot of metaphors, and I didn't even use one their "That's how most people would think". (DUH) Hehehe

 

[bamf]

Ookami, you're getting all bent out of shape. My opinions are opinions and nothing more. I present them how I do but never claim that they are 'right'.

And once again, you have completely miskewd what I'm talking about here. You are a male, there is social pressures for you to act like a male (regardless of whether or not you had parental influences [and I'm not trying to diss you on that]). If a female was raised without parental influence, she would most likely (read 99% and yes I made that number up) grow up to act like a female because we have social roles to fill. The hypothetical world I am talking about has no social roles to fill. Therefore she would grow up free to act like she chooses and no one would call it acting like a male or female because no one would care!

You and this hypothetical girl however are raised in the real world where we have real social roles and therefore are influenced to act like a man or a woman. I can't make this any more clear for you. You simply missunderstood what I'm saying.

I'll continue to debate with you but I refuse to argue.

 

[bamf]

And the part about loosing, can you imagine what it would be like where people weren't expected to be male or female? Please try. I know you can do it.

Ok, see? How are they loosing any part of themself if they aren't being forced to be someone they aren't? No one is making anyone change in this world, it simply opens doors to the possibilities.

 

[Koba]

Ookami, you pay lip service to being pragmatic, but you are not really basing your opinions on the material reality any more than Alt. The difference between you and her is mostly your male chauvinism. Examples:

"They want to be treated better then men not equal to them."

Funny how you only hear men dismiss the feminist movement like that, even if many women have reservations about the feminist movement's ideas. Criticizing patriarchy and gender roles currently mean apparently makes one a man hater.

"I don't know what I did to imply men care about settling down. Most men, and this is probably going to shock you, don't care about settling down. Normally a female comes along and gets us to settle down. So the blame is on you guys for that one. If all the females stopped caring about children and marriage then the population would start to die down."

Women are now to blame for oppressing men and "forcing" them to in stable relationships. Historically the alternative has been polygamy, which was even worse for women than sexist monogamous relationships.

"Ah, and you think it's different for men. :/ Shame on Thy, Shame on Thy. I have a female friend (most of my friends are female) who loves to go around toying with men. She's an INFJ and loves to grab their asses, make them spend money for her. I let this happen because it's the advantage women have. Men have advantages thus women should have their advantage."

This is probably the most blatantly male chauvinist thing you've said. Now, the fact that women can provide for themselves via prostitution (and are taught to develop their identities in such a manner) is proof of female empowerment, rather than subjugation to the people who provide for them. Getting X doesn't mean that a person is suddenly empowered if they receive X in a subjugated context. Slaves got a place to live and food (X) while the slave owners received labor power, but the slaves were still subjugated to the owners because they were dependent on them.

Some women are so successful that their prostitution allows them to become some of the most well off people on earth. While they are still restricted by society, as all people are, they are basically men for gender purposes. Likewise, the majority of women in the exploited countries are much worse off than women in the imperialist countries, so that's something else to think about.

And the examples of male chauvinism go on and on...

I suspect that you are using your personal experiences filtered through the lens of male chauvinism to come to an understanding. You can't have the experiences of a gender oppressed woman, so to get a meaningful understanding of the conditions women operate in, you will have to step back a bit and recognize male chauvinism for what it is.

 

[Ookami]

Ookami, you're getting all bent out of shape. My opinions are opinions and nothing more. I present them how I do but never claim that they are 'right'.

And once again, you have completely miskewd what I'm talking about here. You are a male, there is social pressures for you to act like a male (regardless of whether or not you had parental influences [and I'm not trying to diss you on that]). If a female was raised without parental influence, she would most likely (read 99% and yes I made that number up) grow up to act like a female because we have social roles to fill. The hypothetical world I am talking about has no social roles to fill. Therefore she would grow up free to act like she chooses and no one would call it acting like a male or female because no one would care!

You and this hypothetical girl however are raised in the real world where we have real social roles and therefore are influenced to act like a man or a woman. I can't make this any more clear for you. You simply missunderstood what I'm saying.

I'll continue to debate with you but I refuse to argue.

Hmm, I think I should quote you "Now you're seeing stuff that isn't there". I wasn't raised with any pressure. As I said I rarely went outside when I was younger because I had to take care of my siblings, and when I did go outside I mostly hung out with females. Thus I never felt this pressure you're talking about till about 13/14, and by then I'd grown to not care about it.

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding going on in this thread. Ne is playing tricks on my mind making me find hidden patterns. While Ni is giving you incorrect answers.

And the part about loosing, can you imagine what it would be like where people weren't expected to be male or female? Please try. I know you can do it.

Ok, see? How are they loosing any part of themself if they aren't being forced to be someone they aren't? No one is making anyone change in this world, it simply opens doors to the possibilities.

This is what I mean by Ni giving you incorrect answers. You assume I see things so black/white. While in actuality I don't see male/female at all. I'm basically the post-product of the world you want to accomplish, and to my eyes it would be a failure.

You're Ni again failed you. As I've already said 'I don't know' and 'It's not my way of thinking'. I don't pretend to know why they think. I want too know I really do, but I don't currently. However, I do know how they think.

Funny how you only hear men dismiss the feminist movement like that, even if many women have reservations about the feminist movement's ideas. Criticizing patriarchy and gender roles currently mean apparently makes one a man hater.

Funny how... wait ... wrong. INTJ Female friend dismisses feminism.. wait a minute 75% of my friends are female and all of them dislike feminists. :/ I wonder how your theory works.

I don't even buy into their opinions all the time, and you have to remember. I not only said I dislike feminist, but also that I dislike male supremacist. See that works both ways. If I dislike both sides then what does that make me? Just a Hater I guess

"I don't know what I did to imply men care about settling down. Most men, and this is probably going to shock you, don't care about settling down. Normally a female comes along and gets us to settle down. So the blame is on you guys for that one. If all the females stopped caring about children and marriage then the population would start to die down."

Women are now to blame for oppressing men and "forcing" them to in stable relationships. Historically the alternative has been polygamy, which was even worse for women than sexist monogamous relationships.

Hmm, you seem to think I mentioned that as if it was a bad thing. No, I like that women grab men by the ears and make them commit. You're seeing things that don't exist mister Koba.

"Ah, and you think it's different for men. :/ Shame on Thy, Shame on Thy. I have a female friend (most of my friends are female) who loves to go around toying with men. She's an INFJ and loves to grab their asses, make them spend money for her. I let this happen because it's the advantage women have. Men have advantages thus women should have their advantage."

This is probably the most blatantly male chauvinist thing you've said. Now, the fact that women can provide for themselves via prostitution (and are taught to develop their identities in such a manner) is proof of female empowerment, rather than subjugation to the people who provide for them. Getting X doesn't mean that a person is suddenly empowered if they receive X in a subjugated context. Slaves got a place to live and food (X) while the slave owners received labor power, but the slaves were still subjugated to the owners because they were dependent on them.

Some women are so successful that their prostitution allows them to become some of the most well off people on earth. While they are still restricted by society, as all people are, they are basically men for gender purposes. Likewise, the majority of women in the exploited countries are much worse off than women in the imperialist countries, so that's something else to think about.

Again, you assumed wrong. My friend is not a "prostitution". She's a manipulator. There is a extreme difference. She is empowered and she knows it, but she does it via manipulation of males like yourself who would try and help her. <3 ENTJs.

I suspect that you are using your personal experiences filtered through the lens of male chauvinism to come to an understanding. You can't have the experiences of a gender oppressed woman, so to get a meaningful understanding you will have to step back a bit and recognize male chauvinism for what it is.

I suspect you've misread a lot of my arguments, or just not seen my arguments as arguments. As I said earlier I'm arguing for both the pleasure in arguing and to share my opinions. You seem to be confusing the two. My opinions are my own, while the arguments I make just for fun are from voices of people who do not get to fight right now.

I know I'm male Duh, but as I said. Most of my friends are female and lots of them are 'oppressed' as you say. Thus I get to hear about the problems all the time. You might be right about me filtering it, but I think you're wrong about the way I am. I'm taking knowledge I learn on my own, and knowledge I gained from them. and combining it.

RAWR RAWR FIGHT DA POWA

 

[Koba]

Funny how... wait ... wrong. INTJ Female friend dismisses feminism.. wait a minute 75% of my friends are female and all of them dislike feminists. :/ I wonder how your theory works.

I don't even buy into their opinions all the time, and you have to remember. I not only said I dislike feminist, but also that I dislike male supremacist. See that works both ways. If I dislike both sides then what does that make me? Just a Hater I guess

It is, by and large, the men that make the argument that feminists want to reverse gender oppression rather than eliminate it. Also, I do not claim that you dislike women or have a problem with them. Male chauvinists often sincerely believe they're advocating what is in women's best interests, but this doesn't matter when they aren't.

Hmm, you seem to think I mentioned that as if it was a bad thing. No, I like that women grab men by the ears and make them commit. You're seeing things that don't exist mister Koba.

Again, it doesn't really matter how you feel subjectively. You are arguing that women are oppressing men. If you turn around say that oppression is actually good for men, that doesn't change that you are calling the coercion card.

Again, you assumed wrong. My friend is not a "prostitution". She's a manipulator. There is a extreme difference. She is empowered and she knows it, but she does it via manipulation of males like yourself who would try and help her. <3 ENTJs.

I consider women using their bodies sexually in order to get goods or money a form of prostitution, ie what you described.

I suspect you've misread a lot of my arguments, or just not seen my arguments as arguments. As I said earlier I'm arguing for both the pleasure in arguing and to share my opinions. You seem to be confusing the two. My opinions are my own, while the arguments I make just for fun are from voices of people who do not get to fight right now.

I know I'm male Duh, but as I said. Most of my friends are female and lots of them are 'oppressed' as you say. Thus I get to hear about the problems all the time. You might be right about me filtering it, but I think you're wrong about the way I am. I'm taking knowledge I learn on my own, and knowledge I gained from them. and combining it.

Well, your reasons are your own, and I don't really intend to debate your personal qualities. Your arguments and line of thinking are male chauvinist, so I oppose them.

 

[bamf]

Ookami, there are pressures all around you. If you were raised without human contact of any kind, well then you'd be pressure free. If you ever talked to someone who had any form of communication with the outside world at any time in their life, you had an influence of a social role. Social roles are everywhere and as much as you say you aren't affected by them, you are, I am, everyone in the world is.

Take it or leave it, I'm done with this thread. We've hijacked it way beyond where it was heading and we aren't getting anywhere with it now.

So go get on your high horse and toot your own horn. I'm done arguing against stupidity.

 

[Ookami]

It is, by and large, the men that make the argument that feminists want to reverse gender oppression rather than eliminate it. Also, I do not claim that you dislike women or have a problem with them. Male chauvinists often sincerely believe they're advocating what is in women's best interests, but this doesn't matter when they aren't.

Ah, then I'm not a Male Chauvinist. I'm a Humanist. I'm not advocating what is best for women. Nope, I'm advocating what is best for humanity in general. Actually, I find it odd that you'd even conclude that I was advocating anything for a certain group of people.

Again, it doesn't really matter how you feel subjectively. You are arguing that women are oppressing men. If you turn around say that oppression is actually good for men, that doesn't change that you are calling the coercion card.

BAKA! Fucking Idiot. Where in the hell did I say that women are oppressing men. You and me seem to have different views on what is oppression. A man is not being forced. Forced was a metaphor. Surely if he didn't want too he wouldn't, but the man gets found by the women in most cases of marriage (or from what I've heard from married friends).

I consider women using their bodies sexually in order to get goods or money a form of prostitution, ie what you described.

Hmm, again different views. I like people who have different opinions. Women who freely use their bodies because they want too are not prostitutes in my book.

Well, your reasons are your own, and I don't really intend to debate your personal qualities. Your arguments and line of thinking are male chauvinist, so I oppose them.

and I'm telling you that you're wrong. It happens often though because I don't choose a side to argue with I just argue for the sake of arguing. I can see things from all sides thus I adapt to fit what is missing. If my arguments came out as Male Chauvinist then it's because it was missing from the thread. It doesn't make my points any less correct. It's just a different kind-of correct. You're talking to the person that believes every political stance has good and bad things about it, and will argue against and for it if needed.

You see I make it a habit of finding the good and bad. I could go through my arguments and make counter arguments to all of them, and I probably will. It's why I didn't bother responding to the person that agreed with me because I knew that if I did it would come-out as me changing sides.

Half the the things here are my opinions. (Equality, People are Stupid) and half of them are not but are good points made by their group of people. (Women have an Advantage, Etc)

Anyways, you seem to be giving up too :/ Drat. I didn't get to argue against you long. GG to you then I enjoyed it while it lasts. I hope you respond to this because I'd really like to continue.

Ookami, there are pressures all around you. If you were raised without human contact of any kind, well then you'd be pressure free. If you ever talked to someone who had any form of communication with the outside world at any time in their life, you had an influence of a social role. Social roles are everywhere and as much as you say you aren't affected by them, you are, I am, everyone in the world is.

Take it or leave it, I'm done with this thread. We've hijacked it way beyond where it was heading and we aren't getting anywhere with it now.

So go get on your high horse and toot your own horn. I'm done arguing against stupidity.

I never said I didn't have any social influence. I just have limited social influence. I find it odd that you'd call my views stupid when their similar to yours, or maybe you're only paying attention to what I posted to you, or you're ignoring other pieces of information.

We're similar. I just refuse to believe people are good. Humans are not good, people including myself and you, are stupid and evil creatures.

I'm actually on the ground. You've got the moral high-horse.

GG. I enjoyed it

:mp:

EDIT: Definitely not "male chauvinist" Nope, I believe that all of humanity is equal and that if it weren't equal a continue power struggle would in sue You wanted one of my real opinions instead of me arguing against yours. There it is. I believe Humans are Equally stupid and worthless until they realize their stupid. I know I'm stupid, but dislike when other people say it without realizing their equally stupid.

EDIT: Now I have a thread up that will not be Offtopic. It should be interesting to see how that thread goes Probably won't have any posts besides mine because I made it sound mean.

 

[Koba]

Ah, then I'm not a Male Chauvinist. I'm a Humanist. I'm not advocating what is best for women. Nope, I'm advocating what is best for humanity in general. Actually, I find it odd that you'd even conclude that I was advocating anything for a certain group of people.

Again this is male chauvinist rhetoric (regardless of whether you're a male chauvinist or not). "Feminism" was not meant to imply reversing the patriarchy, but to emphasize that women are in a subjugated context as compared to men, and have been for pretty much all of history. You could argue that it's not in the best interests of men to lose this privilege, but I don't particularly care if men would prefer to keep subjugating women.

Maybe you're confused about what I mean by male chauvinism. I see male chauvinism as the ideas that arise out of patriarchy to support its existence, and which seek to consolidate and justify male privilege.

BAKA! Fucking Idiot. Where in the hell did I say that women are oppressing men. You and me seem to have different views on what is oppression. A man is not being forced. Forced was a metaphor. Surely if he didn't want too he wouldn't, but the man gets found by the women in most cases of marriage (or from what I've heard from married friends).

You said that women force men into marriage, which would be a kind of coercion. My conclusion was logical based off of that. If you are now saying that you meant something other than what you said, I can accept it, since everyone does that sometimes, but my criticism to the original argument stands (and I don't have a meaningful response to the "found" idea).

Of course, since you're also saying you didn't actually mean half of what you've said, it's going to be hard to have a consistent discussion if you keep doing that.

Hmm, again different views. I like people who have different opinions. Women who freely use their bodies because they want too are not prostitutes in my book.

You do not have to call it prostitution, but I am going to call it a kind of prostitution for illustrative purposes. This is just a word, so if you challenge me semantically on this, it won't effect my argument. If you don't understand my argument, that's another story, and I can try to clarify.

and I'm telling you that you're wrong. It happens often though because I don't choose a side to argue with I just argue for the sake of arguing. I can see things from all sides thus I adapt to fit what is missing. If my arguments came out as Male Chauvinist then it's because it was missing from the thread. It doesn't make my points any less correct. It's just a different kind-of correct. You're talking to the person that believes every political stance has good and bad things about it, and will argue against and for it if needed.

You see I make it a habit of finding the good and bad. I could go through my arguments and make counter arguments to all of them, and I probably will. It's why I didn't bother responding to the person that agreed with me because I knew that if I did it would come-out as me changing sides.

Half the the things here are my opinions. (Equality, People are Stupid) and half of them are not but are good points made by their group of people. (Women have an Advantage, Etc)

Anyways, you seem to be giving up too :/ Drat. I didn't get to argue against you long. GG to you then I enjoyed it while it lasts. I hope you respond to this because I'd really like to continue.

I don't really care if you're a male chauvinist, as long as you're advancing male chauvinist thinking. Which you are. I cannot get inside your head and look around, so I don't try to debate the inside of your head, but instead what's on e-paper.

 

[the]

Some women enjoy the power of controlling men with thier bodies. Why take that away from them? Stop trying to control people to fit the way you think they should be.

Why would the new convention be 'ridic'?

Because memes are redic.

So, it's ridiculous for women to be able to wear what they feel like wearing without worrying about being disrespected?

Why should they care about respect in the first place? What good will it do them?

Call me extreme, but I don't think people ever 'bring it on themselves.' So if a woman is scantily clad and someone disrespects her, I don't think she deserves it.

I am sure somewhere at some point a person has brought it on themself.

I'm not blaming men. I'm blaming the attitude of the majority. Not all men are so. Musta hit a nerve with you there.

It must have been when you used the word patriarchy the way you did I read it that way. My bad.

 

[pogo_<3]

Sex is a wonderful thing. And I guess that makes me a pig. And my woman too... People and their hangups...

I'm not saying that makes you a pig, that's a natural feeling. I'm saying society's use of that feeling is piggish.

 

[Jasmine]

I was thinking of posting something intelligent but it's too hot right now. Here is a dumbing down of what I think:

We are all horny, selfish pigs lying about in our feces, no matter what our gender is.