Are all men pigs? Or are women secret swines as well?

[acd]

People fall in love and have babies and live happily together and it's a-ok with me. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having a family. Gender roles and stereotypes just seem to be outdated for our times. We're not living in an archpatriarchal society where women and children are property, so convincing a girl or a boy how to act like a girl or a boy from birth is useless.

It's mostly egalitarian here, with sexist attitudes. If we're going to be an egalitarian society, why do we need women to be this way and men to be that way? The sexist attitude prevails in the idea that a woman should be modest. Why should she be modest? Because if she's not she'll entice men and maybe get leered at or her ass grabbed or not taken seriously. It's like that because for so long, women were seen as property by men: Their sexuality belonged to the man in charge (father and then later husband). It's not like that anymore, but there's a hint of it left over in this attitude that a woman comfortable with her body enough to bare it is to be scorned or mocked or not taken seriously.

Bah... I think I've said all I can.

 

[Koba]

Umm, Koba, I hope you're not calling me Liberal.

I am, but I do not mean you should go join the democrats. The democrats use Liberalism, but the republicans are also based in Liberalism, as are Libertarians.

Wiki:
"Liberalism is a broad class of political philosophies that considers individual liberty and equality to be the most important political goals.[1] Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Within liberalism, there are various streams of thought which compete over the use of the term "liberal" and may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for political liberalism, which encompasses support for: freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, an individual's right to private property,[2] and a transparent system of government.[3][4][5] All liberals, as well as some adherents of other political ideologies, support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law..."

I do not agree with this line of reasoning. I do not support Liberalism, which is the current ideology of the day, which the United States and western European countries are almost entirely based on, and which currently pervades the world. So when I criticize Liberalism, I making a break with the current order. You, on the other hand, are a particular type of Liberal, or Liberalist if you prefer, different than both the democrats and republicans (who actually mostly represent the same kind of [edit:Liberal] ideology).

[Second Edit: I'm hoping this will ring a bell, but if you still aren't exactly sure what I'm talking about, the wiki article actually isn't a horrible place to start. I could find something better written or something that expressed my viewpoint on Liberalism, but this is just easier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism ]

Third Edit: I like editing my posts.

Fake Fourth Edit: I'm going to quote this from the wiki because I actually like how they phrase it.

"Liberalism in its broadest sense is arguably the dominant ideology of the Western World, where mainstream political debate is held largely within the realm of accepted liberal principles such as government by consent, rationalism, freedom of speech etc, and these principles being accepted and prized by parties across the political spectrum."

 

[Ookami]

People fall in love and have babies and live happily together and it's a-ok with me. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having a family. Gender roles and stereotypes just seem to be outdated for our times. We're not living in an archpatriarchal society where women and children are property, so convincing a girl or a boy how to act like a girl or a boy from birth is useless.

It's mostly egalitarian here, with sexist attitudes. If we're going to be an egalitarian society, why do we need women to be this way and men to be that way? The sexist attitude prevails in the idea that a woman should be modest. Why should she be modest? Because if she's not she'll entice men and maybe get leered at or her ass grabbed or not taken seriously. It's like that because for so long, women were seen as property by men: Their sexuality belonged to the man in charge (father and then later husband). It's not like that anymore, but there's a hint of it left over in this attitude that a woman comfortable with her body enough to bare it is to be scorned or mocked or not taken seriously.

Bah... I think I've said all I can.

Ah, and you think it's different for men. :/ Shame on Thy, Shame on Thy. I have a female friend (most of my friends are female) who loves to go around toying with men. She's an INFJ and loves to grab their asses, make them spend money for her. I let this happen because it's the advantage women have. Men have advantages thus women should have their advantage.

The problem with what you're saying is that 90% of the time The dad raises the Son to be like a Boy, and the Mother raises the Girl to be like a Girl. Girls like yourself probably had your dad around a lot more. Guy's like myself didn't have either parent raising them and thus raised themselves.

Thus you need to understand that I'm not trying to convince you against being an activist for equal rights, but I'm trying to tell you you're being an activist for stupid reasons. I'm an activist for the simple reason that I want to see what happens when men and women are treated the same. I want to see which side cracks first and wants to be treated differently, and I, personally, believe it will be women.

Again, maybe you skipped it, Guy's don't treat other guy's nice. Guy's (and this is a metaphor because I don't drink) kick the living shit out of each other when one of them are drunk, and say 'you tripped'.

I refuse to get married because of that BTW. Marriage was used as ownership, and I refuse that kind of commitment. I don't own my girlfriends. I expect them to be loyal to me like I am to her, but I don't own her.

 

[Ookami]

I am, but I do not mean you should go join the democrats. The democrats use Liberalism, but the republicans are also based in Liberalism, as are Libertarians.

I'm a special version of Libertarian. I call it Wolfian. It's my own set of concepts and theories.

I think most people are getting confused. Like I told Alt. I'm not arguing against equality. I'm just saying that it's A) Not Likely B) People won't like it C) I'll love it because I get to treat everyone the same and D) I already do treat everyone the same

Currently I'm just finding flaws in her reasoning.

 

[bamf]

I think everyone's missing the point on alt ctrl del's stance. It sounds like to me a lot of people think she's blaming this on men or saying men objectify women, and that's not what she's saying at all.

I get where she's coming from, on a world where men and women are seen as equals in all rights and the sexual implications on a body part are null. There are no rolls for someone to fill. Girls don't have to have long hair because they are girls, boy don't have to play with action figures because they are boys. To me, it sounds like an ideal world. People are born to be who EVER they want to be. There is nothing expected from them except to be what THEY want to be. Everyone has equal opportunities to play football and cheer lead. Neither is exclusively male or female and no one expects it to be either way. No one is a tom boy or a sissy because boys and girls do the same thing (I'm just using this from a childhood perspective, same ideas apply to adults). People are free to fall in love with whom ever they choose. Children would still be born because men and women would still fall in love with each other.

I know atl ctrl del wasn't talking about children but I introduced it so maybe people could see it from a different view.

A world without gender roles sounds great to me.

 

[Koba]

I'm a special version of Libertarian. I call it Wolfian. It's my own set of concepts and theories.

I think most people are getting confused. Like I told Alt. I'm not arguing against equality. I'm just saying that it's A) Not Likely B) People won't like it C) I'll love it because I get to treat everyone the same and D) I already do treat everyone the same

Currently I'm just finding flaws in her reasoning.

This does not contradict you as a Liberal. Check out my fake fourth edit in my last post. I operate outside of what it talks about.

I wasn't pointing out that you were Liberal in particular though, if that's what you mean, although I was more than happy to point out that I include you as a Liberal, to make what I'm talking about clearer.

Talking too much about this risks veering into on topic; I only wanted to discuss this to the degree that my posts are clearer, and hopefully I've done that. I wouldn't mind talking about this further in PM or another topic, or we can drop it if that's what you want.

Edit: In any case I do mostly agree with Miss Alt's arguments towards your own, so in regards to your current arguments here just see me as an Alt cheerleader.

 

[Ookami]

I don't really understand how you think I'm not understanding her. I'm understanding her, and just arguing against some of her reasons for wanting that type of world. I'm also saying it won't last long.

TBH. I'm very idealistic, but ... my Ti wants to take over and go 'Not Fucking Logical. It will never last.'

 

[acd]

Maybe I'm not done?

Umm, Koba, I hope you're not calling me Liberal. I'm Libertarian through and through. Anyways, time to spend more time on this topic because I just can never seem to get myself away from a good debate.

Women are to not having rights, as Black people are to chicken. Statistically made the fuck up.

I have no clue where you live Alt, but most men 'I know' don't even want a women who doesn't have an education. Then again I only know thinkers when it comes to males with one or two ENFPs and an INFJ as an exception to the group.

I actually expected a lot more from you Alt, but it seems like you just buy into the womenist propaganda nonsensical bullshit. Women can do whatever they want. The only reason most think they have to do what the male wants is because that's how it is shown on TV. Actually, most of the time it's shown that they have an equal relationship, and both care about each others looks, but that is besides the point.

Personally, I believe that if a man or women does not try to farther their education then they are retarded. I don't care how you do it. Learn it on your own, Go to college, Do it in a group. Whatever, but if you don't continue to learn then you're a fucking idiot, and sadly the world is full of idiots on both sides.

Women are, generally, treated better then males at job interviews. I mean wow, you're giving up your fucking advantage. I love it. =) That means when you fail and then realize that you failed it will be all your fault.

I love feminist. Rawr Rawr Fight Da Power

Equality is a Dream that both Men and Women dream of but only a few really want. (like myself)

Do you even realize that as a woman advances in her education, she puts off having children? As more and more women enter college (and women outnumber men in most universities in the U.S) They are more likely to put off having children.

In the relationship, it is mostly the woman who sacrifices her own goals in order to have a family. More and more women aren't interested in sacrificing their agendas to marry and have families.

Don't know exactly what I said that implied that men didn't want to date educated women. Certainly didn't say that. I said that women are more interested in getting educated than settling down and starting families.


EDIT:

To Koba: Yes, I am somewhat of an anarchist in ideology. And you're right! I do talk about an ideal world with no substantial plans on how to get there. Yet. I'm still formulating them. Mwhaha! All I've got so far is to not buy into the things I disagree with, not to live my life governed by them--and to advise others to do the same.

To Minority Funk: You get it!!

 

[Ookami]

Who cares about children?

I want to know where you got that bullshit percentage. It's mostly state to state. In universities more men outnumber women, and in small colleges more women outnumber men.

Marriage is idiotic. I believe I've already preached this, and thus you're just preaching it back so I can say 'Preaching to the Quire'.

However, you're wrong if you think only women give up stuff in a relationship.

I don't know what I did to imply men care about settling down. Most men, and this is probably going to shock you, don't care about settling down. Normally a female comes along and gets us to settle down. So the blame is on you guys for that one. If all the females stopped caring about children and marriage then the population would start to die down.

and you seem to be preaching at me like I believe males are god like. Remember I want Equality. I know it's going to fail but I want it.

 

[Detective Conan]

Women can do whatever they want. The only reason most think they have to do what the male wants is because that's how it is shown on TV. Actually, most of the time it's shown that they have an equal relationship, and both care about each others looks, but that is besides the point.

[/B]Women are, generally, treated better then males at job interviews. I mean wow, you're giving up your fucking advantage. I love it. =) That means when you fail and then realize that you failed it will be all your fault.

I love feminist. Rawr Rawr Fight Da Power {This made me laugh. It also reminded me of so many feminist jokes we learned in Mental Health class last year.}

Mostly I quoted Ookami here because what he said, I feel, is 100% true. Woman don't have any less rights than men do when making their choices. He also brought up the point of relationships on TV. In high school, the relationship where the two parties only care about looks is very very common. In fact, the female or male puts up with mental and physical abuse in order to be close to the hot one :mp: seems crazy if you ask me. Even though Ookami disregarded the way TV commonly portrays relationships, I think this media tool contributes to the "piggish" behavior in society. Most boys and girls (remember, I'm speaking from a HS perspective...) I see always go after someone because they're "hot" or some other variation of the word. But how can I say that without having a clue? Well, I'd say ask the students yourself as I have. When the only reason they give for being with someone is looks, then I really don't have much more to say. Girls are by far the worst in this kind of behavior (from my experience), and despite poor reputations surrounding guys, still pursue said male subjects. It confuses me how people experience this crap and willingly go back to a similiar situation...

Anyway, in Ookami's second paragraph, he brought up an excellent point. Piggish behavior can lead to a female's benefit in important situations. So, I wonder, why do girls complain when they get an unfair advantage because of their gender? I'd be happy to show up in a skimpy, or stimulating, attire and have an edge in a job interview. Instead, I get seen as creepy. In short, men being pigs isn't seen just in public by honking of horns or suggestive glances. That paycheck of yours might be a direct result of some pig who hired you. So, if you wish to rebel against the piggish behavior males display, don't cash that paycheck.

Anyway, thanks Ookami for giving me the proper inspiration to voice an opinion

 

[bamf]

Who cares about children?

I want to know where you got that bullshit percentage. It's mostly state to state. In universities more men outnumber women, and in small colleges more women outnumber men.

Marriage is idiotic. I believe I've already preached this, and thus you're just preaching it back so I can say 'Preaching to the Quire'.

However, you're wrong if you think only women give up stuff in a relationship.

I don't know what I did to imply men care about settling down. Most men, and this is probably going to shock you, don't care about settling down. Normally a female comes along and gets us to settle down. So the blame is on you guys for that one. If all the females stopped caring about children and marriage then the population would start to die down.

and you seem to be preaching at me like I believe males are god like. Remember I want Equality. I know it's going to fail but I want it.

1. she never claimed that men don't give up things for a relationship and the arguing between you is pointless until you see it from a neutral viewpoint, not that of a man or a woman, but as simply a person. Guys beat guys up because that's how they think guys are supposed to act. It's everywhere, propaganda to think this way is a part of every day life.

2. She isn't claiming men force women to settle down but for some reason you are claiming women force men to. We can't talk about 'most men and most women' because none of know what the slightest portion of a percentage of what men or women are thinking. Some women (and mind you I'm not being definite by saying all) feel pressure to settle down because it's what is expected of them. Some men feel pressured to do this by society rules as well.

She's talking about a world (and yes it's ideal and theoretical, but everything we talk about in this discussion is theories) where no one has these pressures. People are born to be what they want WITHOUT expectations. Will people still settle down? Sure, but because it's what they WANT to do, not what they FEEL is required of them.

Get it?

 

[acd]

Ok. Ookami. First of all I may have gotten mixed up with the whole settling down having children thing because Myself brought it up and I'm having this discussion with more than one of you.

Second of all I never actually gave a percent. I merely referenced a trend. To be honest, I looked it up and I think it was 2007 that had one of the highest birthrates. But women are outnumbering men on campus and relative to that, is that women are having children later on in life.

An article.

Let's all just chill a bit.

 

[Ookami]

1. she never claimed that men don't give up things for a relationship and the arguing between you is pointless until you see it from a neutral viewpoint, not that of a man or a woman, but as simply a person. Guys beat guys up because that's how they think guys are supposed to act. It's everywhere, propaganda to think this way is a part of every day life.

2. She isn't claiming men force women to settle down but for some reason you are claiming women force men to. We can't talk about 'most men and most women' because none of know what the slightest portion of a percentage of what men or women are thinking. Some women (and mind you I'm not being definite by saying all) feel pressure to settle down because it's what is expected of them. Some men feel pressured to do this by society rules as well.

She's talking about a world (and yes it's ideal and theoretical, but everything we talk about in this discussion is theories) where no one has these pressures. People are born to be what they want WITHOUT expectations. Will people still settle down? Sure, but because it's what they WANT to do, not what they FEEL is required of them.

Get it?

I don't get how you think I'm not being neutral. The only time I try to make a comment like above is when she makes comments like she did. So it balances out. If Shai or another male was in here arguing that males are better and no one was arguing females were better then I'd step in too. Most of the time I'm arguing that she's incorrect in her assumptions. Just like you're incorrect in your assumption that I'm not for equality. I'm just not for it in the way she suggests.

You see this would never be the case, and it's just like most ideal worlds. I strive for my very own but it's not possible. If I somehow managed to make my own world then I would change it every 30 years to better it. You see there is no such thing as perfect. Anyone who believes in perfection is stupid. I'm being hypocritical because I'm a bit of a perfectionist, but I stick by it. Perfection depends on each person and you might like one thing while others like other things.

You say I was raised to think like a male. You don't know me at all, and thus jump to that conclusion. When in fact I wasn't really raised by my mother or my father. I only really got to see my father a day and a half every other weekend for 14 years of my life, and my mother... well that is a deep and complex story. I raised myself and my siblings, and if I was somehow raised to think like a male then it's because it's how I wanted to be raised. Thus your theory has now been proven in correct. Even if you won't raise your children then you'll still have to worry about their own mind, and my mind is like this. My sisters is completely different (ENFJ) and my two brothers (ISFP and ESTP). There is no such thing as 'no pressure' if your world existed then you'd have to take out some of human nature, and a lot of people would need to die in order to create it.

This does not contradict you as a Liberal. Check out my fake fourth edit in my last post. I operate outside of what it talks about.

I wasn't pointing out that you were Liberal in particular though, if that's what you mean, although I was more than happy to point out that I include you as a Liberal, to make what I'm talking about clearer.

Talking too much about this risks veering into on topic; I only wanted to discuss this to the degree that my posts are clearer, and hopefully I've done that. I wouldn't mind talking about this further in PM or another topic, or we can drop it if that's what you want.

Edit: In any case I do mostly agree with Miss Alt's arguments towards your own, so in regards to your current arguments here just see me as an Alt cheerleader.

I know I saw what you wrote Being ganged up on here, but it's good you're not getting involved or I'd have to eat you.

My argument is logical and that is why it is failing.

I'm not calling you guys stupid. I'm just saying that no one wants logic. They want happiness.

 

[Ookami]

Ok. Ookami. First of all I may have gotten mixed up with the whole settling down having children thing because Myself brought it up and I'm having this discussion with more than one of you.

Second of all I never actually gave a percent. I merely referenced a trend. To be honest, I looked it up and I think it was 2007 that had one of the highest birthrates. But women are outnumbering men on campus and relative to that, is that women are having children later on in life. Here is one article I found. And, yes sir, you may have another.



Let's all just chill a bit.

^^ You see now I could simple argue that the husband or boyfriend has to work instead of going to college I won't do that though. I'll be humble and admit you were correct on the women outnumbering men in college, but that said women under 25. While I normally see more men going to college later

Chill? There will be no Chill here! THIS IS SPARTA! D: I love to argue.

 

[acd]

I fail to see where you get the idea that you need to counter me on thinking women are better. And what's illogical about anything other than what you've said?

I'm speaking theoretically, as someone pointed out earlier. You say my ideas are impossible, but you don't know that for sure. Can you prove that? None of us can know what society will be like in the future. All we have to work with is historical data and current trends, and realizing that there are problems to be solved, that we do still need to evolve socially.



But I think you are missing the point in all of this. I'm not blaming men for anything. I'm blaming the remnants of a social system that is no longer in effect, but that remains in all of us today. I'm blaming an attitude that both men and women hold.

It just so happens, and this is truth, that throughout history, men have held power over women. It's not like that now, in most parts of the world. So it is baffling to me how some people can still hold fragments of that in their attitude towards women, and how women can regard themselves and one another so. The example given in this thread (that I seem to have hijacked) is that women need to dress a certain way in order to be respected. Minority Funk put it well when he said,

a world where men and women are seen as equals in all rights and the sexual implications on a body part are null. There are no rolls for someone to fill

 

[bamf]

Ookami, if you were raised on the same planet I was, regardless of your parental situation, you were influenced to think like a male. It's how global society is programed to be. I'm not saying that it's a good or bad thing, just simply that is how it is.

And to be clear, I never said or assumed you weren't for equality. It's very obvious you are. I just think you are missing the point of the posts at times.

Finally, yeah this world we're talking about is make-believe and will never happen, I understand that. I don't see why believing in and striving for perfection is a bad thing. To put a limit on your beliefs is limiting your potential.

 

[Ookami]

I think you're missing the point that I'm arguing both for the sake of arguing and to share my opinions, and that is why I'd counter attack everything you'd say when you mention 'women blah this' or 'that'. Just like I said I'd do if I was talking to Shai and he went 'Men blah this' or 'that'.

I see you're calling my arguments illogical though and that would mean I'd have to get serious if you meant it. I've based my theories and opinions on logic.

I never said it was impossible, nope, I just said it's not what women of the world really want. Hello, most of the time I'm not even arguing against you if you haven't noticed I've even said I agreed with you. I just disagree that it's what most people want. You have to remember INFJs are what 1% of the population? Most of my arguments are toward feminists in general, and they generally couldn't handle equality. They want to be treated better then men not equal to them

I can tell you what its going to be like I'm going to take over the world so I know.

I think somewhere between me stating my own opinions and me arguing against yours. You started to believe that I wasn't for some of yours, and thus it got lost in translation.

Ookami, if you were raised on the same planet I was, regardless of your parental situation, you were influenced to think like a male. It's how global society is programed to be. I'm not saying that it's a good or bad thing, just simply that is how it is.

And to be clear, I never said or assumed you weren't for equality. It's very obvious you are. I just think you are missing the point of the posts at times.

Finally, yeah this world we're talking about is make-believe and will never happen, I understand that. I don't see why believing in and striving for perfection is a bad thing. To put a limit on your beliefs is limiting your potential.

Illogical. The way you talk you're saying that if a female was raised by herself without parents then she'd come-out thinking like a male. That's what you just said basically so don't change it, and if that is true then I was not born on the same planet. Then again I wasn't really 'allowed' to go out into the world. I either lived in a house in the woods, or in a 'hood' with poor white people. That's a different story though. That steamed by hatred for rich people. Which has now changed.

Preaching to the Quire again. 'Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss you'll land somewhere among the stars'. I told you though. This is just my Ti going 'illogical, illogical, illogical'. The perfect world is a balance of Chaos and Stability, Darkness and Light. Ying and Yang basically.

Again I think somewhere my arguments got lost in translation.

EDIT: To that quote from Minority that you reposted ALT. That would be like stripping identity away from people. Well, that would be how most would see it. People don't want any of their identity stripped, even though it would be replaced by 'true identity'.

 

[bamf]

I'm sorry but I still think you just don't grasp to the extent, what all is being said here. I never once said a woman raised without parents would end up thinking like a man, I never even came close to insinuating that. You are assuming things that are not there. I said if someone was raised without social expectation they would end up being who they want to be. Men could be men, women could be women, but the thing is it wouldn't matter because people wouldn't see it as being male or female. Simply being a human. It's this concept you either don't grasp or seem to ignore.

And about the quote, it wouldn't strip identity from anyone. It would be stipping the identity you assigned them, but in a world where they are free to be who they want they wouldn't know any different. People wouldn't see it as loosing their identity, because that would mean there are social expectations of them to be male or female. In fact, they would see your point of view as trying to control who they are.

 

[acd]

People don't want any of their identity stripped, even though it would be replaced by 'true identity'.

That's a bad thing? True identity is not prefered over prescribed identity?

 

[sassafras]

women outnumbering men in college, but that said women under 25. While I normally see more men going to college later

Society still paints the man as the primary breadwinner, or at least, more financially successful than his female partner. If a man decides to go to college or university later in life, it's likely because he's realized that society holds a man with a university education in higher esteem. Society is more forgiving of women in that regard.

Still, the interesting trend is that the US census cites a recent decline in the amount of male highschool graduates. It may in part explain the ratio of male/female students in post-secondary institutions.

StatsCanada demonstrates a near equal split in that amount, rivaling a huge raise in the amount of female highschool graduates in the mid-90's to present day.

Even more interestingly enough, there's been an increase in female medical and law students. For example, my faulty of law boasts more women than men; the overall trend in Canada, at least, has demonstrated more female students in graduate programs than ever before. Those numbers are climbing higher each year.

It's shifting on all grounds, I think. With the exception of equal pay, I think it's rather superfluous to argue which gender is worse off in North America. (Not saying that anyone was, per say, but we were definitely creeping into that territory in some regards).

I was tempted to launch into a Freudian/ de Beauvoir spiel about anatomy and how difficult it really is going to be to shake gender expecations/stereotypes because the symbolism is so deeply ingrained in our collective unconscious, but I feel that this would be a moot point.

Personally, I think we can try our hardest to 'idealize' anything, because as higher order creatures, we're entirely capable of implementing structures of belief based on reason and compassion. However, there's no denying that even with societal structures in place, its not going to completely stamp out certain inclinations or 'archaic' beliefs. We have years of evolution to contend with, especially with regard to female/male roles. Implementing a genderless society would take years, if it were even possible, on those grounds alone.