Are all men pigs? Or are women secret swines as well?

[SIZE=Default]This guy thinks this is an excellent post! I don't think you need to question your being an INFJ because of this. To be honest I behaved the same way and used the same misogynist rationalizations people in this thread are using before my friend was raped, that is when I finally "got it". It's been 2 1/2 month's since my friend was raped and she's still scared of being in public by herself because she fears that every guy she doesn't know who comes near her might rape her. Given that 1 out of every 4 women will be sexually assulted, abused, or molested in some time in their lives I can't really blame the over-the-top "all men are rapists" rhetoric of certain feminist acedemics.[/SIZE]
Well now, since the post you quoted was a reply to me, and you're ambiguously talking about "misogynist rationalizations" that have been made in this topic, I'm going to have to object on several points.

First of all, I haven't really been placing "blame" on any groups. I blame the system, not men or women. I don't think there's anything about men or women that innately makes them act badly. I am trying to understand the causes of things in our present society, not assign blame, because once I assign the causes, I can try to figure out how to deal with them and take a step forward. Maybe the step forward doesn't lead to a perfect ideal society, but if it moves things forward, then I'm for it. Coincidentally, your idea of an ideal society is simply your reinterpretation of modern values. I assure you that 1,000 years ago or even less, your idea of a perfect society would be very different, although probably still a decent society to live in. My approach, however, is timeless, since it's about increasing freedom step by step over the long run. It requires a reinterpretation at each step, rather than coming into contradiction with the various utopia's people envision over time.

Secondly, I have not said that women are always to blame for how men react (or even that they ever are), nor have I said that women are at fault when they are raped. In fact, I don't think anyone's said that, although I could have missed something. Trying to continue to pin this on me is misleading at best, and dishonest at worst, as I've demonstrated that people have nothing other than apparent surface similarities with my arguments and the arguments behind that belief, surface similarities that don't hold up to deeper analysis.

You know, if a man told me that he was having trouble not staring at women and that he didn't want to, and that he was fed up with women for wearing clothing that made themselves so visible, I would tell him to own up for his own actions, just like I would with a woman. I haven't because, despite how some people are acting, I'm not aware of anyone saying this. This has absolutely nothing to do with assigning personal blame for wider issues, for me.
 
Kinda bringing up an older post, but still:

Very practical thinking. But what about the implications of saying what essentially amounts to "the world won't change, so you better change yourself"? If everyone thought like that black people would still be slaves, women still wouldn't be able to vote, and gay people across the globe would still have to hide their sexuality for fear of violence.

Thinking like that works only on the short term, just like "it's not my problem" style thinking works on the short term. But in the bigger picture thinking like that isn't practical any more. It perpetuates the problem and in doing so becomes part of the problem.

Those who change the world don't do it by bitching to their friends ;) What I'm saying is that, yes, real world changes can and do happen...with a helluva lot of effort. We woman CAN change our position here, but it would require a lot of work and cooperation, which isn't really what most people want to put in. If all you're going to do is complain, either stop doing it or DO something to make a difference. You can't just point fingers at guys and say "You're in the wrong" -- we'd need to change media, ideals, cultural standards, and the whole shebang.

So, my take on it is either actually actively do something about it or stfu :B
 
Kinda bringing up an older post, but still:



Those who change the world don't do it by bitching to their friends ;) What I'm saying is that, yes, real world changes can and do happen...with a helluva lot of effort. We woman CAN change our position here, but it would require a lot of work and cooperation, which isn't really what most people want to put in. If all you're going to do is complain, either stop doing it or DO something to make a difference. You can't just point fingers at guys and say "You're in the wrong" -- we'd need to change media, ideals, cultural standards, and the whole shebang.

So, my take on it is either actually actively do something about it or stfu :B
I think you're pretty severe, GO. Who are you accusing of just complaining, here? And how are you drawing that conclusion?

I think you're well enough aware of the social changes women have made in the last few decades. The thing is, the work's not finished. So long as women are still being objectified, the goal isn't met. Even if it happens less; it still happens in the media and in the collective culture. Just because it's normalized doesn't mean it's right or acceptable.

Women should complain. And you're right-- do something about it instead of kowtowing to societal demands on their bodies and appearances--whether that equates to showing more skin or less. Each person has to decide how they want to present themselves. If a woman enjoys her body and likes to wear a certain attire for aesthetic reasons of her own, she should be free to do so without being shamed or scorned. That's the whole point. Words like 'easy' and 'whore' and 'cheap' shouldn't be equated with a woman's attire. Though no one said those words here, I see those thoughts implied.

But anyway, how do you know how much cooperation women are willing to give to afford themselves the luxury of being more than an ornament or a vessel of chastisity and propagation?

What do YOU suggest, GO??
 
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In society, men are viewed as disgusting, as perverted. Women fret wearing tight clothes for fear of oglers ad creepers. But what about men? Do they ever look in the mirror before they walk out the door, and say, "Hmm, these pants are quite revealing. Better change so the women don't stare..."---Should they??? Every woman has seen a man in their life, whether it be on TV, or in person, that they look at and think that they're attractive. Is that not the same as men silently thinking, "I wanna tap that" If an attractive woman walks down the street and a man in a car goes by and honks, its considered rude. Reversed, would men be offended? Would the same offense still be conidered degradation? Playboy magazines are frowned upon in society because its just a bunch of provocative photos of scantily clad women. Has anyone opened up a fashion magazine of any kind in the last few years? Nearly every gucci and prada advertisement has a man in just his boxers. Even for watches!!! Aren't women viewing the same degrading images? I am by no means saying that men should continue reading and saying the things that they do, just because women do too. I just think that women should think about it next time they flip through their redbook or Instyle, and instead of having a pokerface, just be more aware.

Have you heard about the masculinists movement? Google it you might like it.

I agree with the other post that I read which said that women are better at disgusting impulses. But I don't think you realize the extreme public lewdness can be taken too on the part of men. I grew up in a very large city and I would ask any men if they saw any expicit acts like that, most of them say no. Ask women however and most of the have a thouroughly creepy story to tell.

Is it genetics? How am I supposed to know!!?

However I wish people would stop denying it and forgetting the real human impact it has.

DAMMIT:m051:
 
I think you're pretty severe, GO. Who are you accusing of just complaining, here? And how are you drawing that conclusion?

I think you're well enough aware of the social changes women have made in the last few decades. The thing is, the work's not finished. So long as women are still being objectified, the goal isn't met. Even if it happens less; it still happens in the media and in the collective culture. Just because it's normalized doesn't mean it's right or acceptable.

Women should complain. And you're right-- do something about it instead of kowtowing to societal demands on their bodies and appearances--whether that equates to showing more skin or less. Each person has to decide how they want to present themselves. If a woman enjoys her body and likes to wear a certain attire for aesthetic reasons of her own, she should be free to do so without being shamed or scorned. That's the whole point. Words like 'easy' and 'whore' and 'cheap' shouldn't be equated with a woman's attire. Though no one said those words here, I see those thoughts implied.

But anyway, how do you know how much cooperation women are willing to give to afford themselves the luxury of being more than an ornament or a vessel of chastisity and propagation?

What do YOU suggest, GO??

Well, I suggest changing the expectations placed on the media. That's the biggest influence right now on the status of women (look at American Pie, major superstars, etc. Women want to feel sexy, but that's what they feel they need to compare themselves to...). Problem is, that would take a lot...although there's already been some steps in that direction.

However, we also have a sort of one step forward, two steps back scenario. Women HAVE made a lot of progress...problem is, some of that progress has actually shot us in the foot. We wanted to become comfortable with our bodies and our sexualities. Yes, that made it acceptable for us to wear anything...but that also helped us to be objectified more. There's this kind of twisted notion that women should dress as if they're looking to be on the cover of Playboy, but get pissed when it's taken that way.

In short, WE are the ones that essentially objectified ourselves. A while ago, that was totally unacceptable, even to men who we now call "pigs." It was the feminist movements that inadvertently allowed many present-day sexual expectations.

So, I agree we have made progress...but it was kind of without a real notion of what we "wanted." I mean, it really is unrealistic to expect to wear something provocative and NOT get a reaction. That's too idealistic, and too selfish. What you wear is often times a statement of what you want to say or be, and it's a flag of what style you like or what group you want to be with. If I see a kid dressed in emo clothes, then I think he's emo. If I see a woman dressed like a chick from Girls Gone Wild....what should I expect?
 
Actually, deciding to ignore present conventions is just how you change the culture.

True but you are just leaving a vacuum for a redic new convention.


Personally, I refuse to feel bound to dress a certain way because my 'culture' dictates it is more appropriate. I don't want to be packaged.

The attitude of the people judging the way a woman dresses needs to change. It is our body, we'll wear what we want, and won't be made to feel ashamed for it because society at large isn't ready to move out of patriarchism.

Yes men are the problem. *rolls eyes*
 
True but you are just leaving a vacuum for a redic new convention.




Yes men are the problem. *rolls eyes*
That's it? The only bit of constructive criticism you've got is to roll your eyes?

Why would the new convention be 'ridic'?
So, it's ridiculous for women to be able to wear what they feel like wearing without worrying about being disrespected?

Call me extreme, but I don't think people ever 'bring it on themselves.' So if a woman is scantily clad and someone disrespects her, I don't think she deserves it.

I'm not blaming men. I'm blaming the attitude of the majority. Not all men are so. Musta hit a nerve with you there.
 
Again, not all women feel this way about wear plan jeans and sweaters, and they will wear tank-tops and short skirts, and (most because most are sensors) males will flock to her. Thus the reason you'll feel disrespected is because you're not getting attention while the girl who dresses up will get it, and she dresses up because she wants too.

Need I mention one of these females? Marylin Monro.

Honestly though. The world you dream of will never happen. You could 'heal' all the guys in the world of their 'piggishness' but then you'll have all the women of the world being Beautiful Stallions to try and get the males attention, because without us being drawn to you. You'll never get our attention.

Did you know that even though the Pig is said to be a dirty animal. It is actually one of the cleanest animals on the inside? I guess it's because the pig knows it's a pig.

The ideals placed in this thread are mostly feminist, and I dislike feminist. I dislike male supremacist. You need to stop looking at the gender and start looking at the people, because people are the problem. Not the gender.

That being said everyone in the world man, women, children. We're all piggish in someway, and if you disagree then you're lying to yourself.
 
:/ Now, I don't know about all that. First off, women that don't wear "attractive" clothes still can attract people -- it's not the attraction that bothers women. It's the inappropriate behavior that stems from a lack of self control when said person is attracted.

Secondly, I'd like to know why you think the pig is cleanest -- there are religions that refuse to eat pork :/
 
Ya'lls a bunch of squares!!! Sheesh!

Ok. I'm not looking at the gender. Actually, maybe I'm not being clear. I'm trying to propose the idea of a society in which there is no gender. Maybe it's hard for you to imagine? Where women's bodies aren't mostly viewed as sex objects and baby making machines.

When the first thing on someone's mind isn't sex when they look at a female body (hell, even a male body. Men do have their fair share of being made into sex objects, at least the third wave tries to achieve this flip of the coin.. I don't like it.) That's what I'm talking about. I love sex. Sex is amazing, however, I don't appreciate someone making assumptions about me or any other women based on attire. I don't think that's fair. Maybe some of you do. Alright then. I don't look at clothing as a means of conveying sexual availability. I see attire as first, being a means to keep warm and protected from elements and second, as a means to express oneself aesthetically.

If a woman wishes to express herself aesthetically by adorning her body with scant cloth during temperatures where it is feasible, then that's ok with me. I don't think she's cheap or easy, I just think she appreciates her body. Loves her skin. And that's lovely to me, not whorish.
 
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:/ Now, I don't know about all that. First off, women that don't wear "attractive" clothes still can attract people -- it's not the attraction that bothers women. It's the inappropriate behavior that stems from a lack of self control when said person is attracted.

Secondly, I'd like to know why you think the pig is cleanest -- there are religions that refuse to eat pork :/

1) This is irrelevant. It also makes little sense because most of the males I know show quite the bit of self control when around females. It's when were alone that we're really naughty. However, that shouldn't matter being you don't really get to hear about it.

I don't disagree and I'm not saying that its wrong. I, personally, love when my girls just up in tight jeans and graphic T-shirts. However, If I were to quote MSN conversations then I could give you a prime example on the type of female I'm talking about. I have an ENFJ Romanian friend and she loves to dress up pretty. Loves to go shopping for flashy clothes. She dresses up for herself. She rarely goes out (right now) as she is studying, but still dresses up just for around the house work.

Honestly you just proved my point on their being several different kinds of women.

2) and I quote:
Do you sweat like a pig? Chances are you don’t, especially if you can wring out your shirt at the end of a hot day. Contrary to popular belief, pigs are unable to sweat; instead, they wallow in mud to cool down. Their mucky appearance gives pigs an undeserved reputation for slovenliness. In fact, pigs are some of the cleanest animals around, refusing to excrete anywhere near their living or eating areas when given a choice.

Pigs are misunderstood in many ways. Many people think of them as portly and stupid, but the NATURE program The Joy of Pigs shows us how intelligent pigs really are. (They are naturally lean, too, unless they are overfed by humans.) Pigs are smarter than any other domestic animal. Their ability to solve problems, like the pig I.Q. test on The Joy of Pigs, is well-documented, and they are considered by animal experts to be more trainable than dogs or cats.
Biblical pigs are considered evil, and in some religions considered Holy like cows for Indians. However, religion should not jutify how you eat. I'm sure there isn't a god/goddess or gods/goddesses up there going 'that person shouldn't eat that'.


I'm probably biased as a Poly-Agnostic Theorist though.


Ok. I'm not looking at the gender. Actually, maybe I'm not being clear. I'm trying to propose the idea of a society in which there is no gender. Maybe it's hard for you to imagine? Where women's bodies aren't mostly viewed as sex objects and baby making machines.

When the first thing on someone's mind isn't sex when they look at a female body (hell, even a male body. Men do have their fair share of being made into sex objects, at least the third wave tries to achieve this flip of the coin.. I don't like it.) That's what I'm talking about. I love sex. Sex is amazing, however, I don't appreciate someone making assumptions about me or any other women based on attire. I don't think that's fair. Maybe some of you do. Alright then. I don't look at clothing as a means of conveying sexual availability. I see attire as first, being a means to keep warm and protected from elements and second, as a means to express oneself aesthetically.

If a woman wishes to express herself aesthetically by adorning her body with scant cloth during temperatures where it is feasible, then that's ok with me. I don't think she's cheap or easy, I just think she appreciates her body. Loves her skin. And that's lovely to me, not whorish.

:P I don't think I know one guy that makes assumptions based on clothing. You don't seem to understand the average male mind (being most males are Sensors besides ENTPs and INTJs who have dominate males in NTs) an ESTP sees a female he doesn't go 'That girl looks like a whore' he goes 'Wow, I like that outfit. She's hot'.

Actually it would probably be the N's that jump to conclusions based on a person appearance being we find patterns and meaning in everything, like, I'm not ashamed to admit I've made some conclusions by looking at how a female dresses, moves, and talks. It all goes into my memory bank of knowledge to be analyzed farther, and you'll never hear me telling you any of it because my Ti loves to work in my head (duh!), but after I get down analyzing then I'll tell you.

Also, you stated yourself, that men are also subjected to sexualization.
 
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Ok. I'm not looking at the gender. Actually, maybe I'm not being clear. I'm trying to propose the idea of a society in which there is no gender. Maybe it's hard for you to imagine? Where women's bodies aren't mostly viewed as sex objects and baby making machines.

What the eff...

I don't get it.

Women make babies. Men fight to have the best woman/best children. Repeat. That's life. Why would you propose a genderless society?
 
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1) This is irrelevant. It also makes little sense because most of the males I know show quite the bit of self control when around females. It's when were alone that we're really naughty. However, that shouldn't matter being you don't really get to hear about it.

I don't disagree and I'm not saying that its wrong. I, personally, love when my girls just up in tight jeans and graphic T-shirts. However, If I were to quote MSN conversations then I could give you a prime example on the type of female I'm talking about. I have an ENFJ Romanian friend and she loves to dress up pretty. Loves to go shopping for flashy clothes. She dresses up for herself. She rarely goes out (right now) as she is studying, but still dresses up just for around the house work.

Honestly you just proved my point on their being several different kinds of women.

2) and I quote:



Biblical pigs are considered evil, and in some religions considered Holy like cows for Indians. However, religion should not jutify how you eat. I'm sure there isn't a god/goddess or gods/goddesses up there going 'that person shouldn't eat that'.

There are many different types of women; there are many different types of men. The men we're referring to are the men that would be called "pigs," ie those males that DON'T have the self control around women. There are plenty of respectful men out there.

The question is, should women change their style of dress so that guys like these aren't tempted?

And as for the pig thing, trust me, I know a lot about pigs. We raised them for a few years ;) And yeah, they're smart...stubborn as hell too, and I mostly dislike them. The meat is lean (if it's fed right), but it's not necessarily cleaner. AND male pigs, if they aren't fixed and their hormones get into the meat, are not eaten ;)
 
There are many different types of women; there are many different types of men. The men we're referring to are the men that would be called "pigs," ie those males that DON'T have the self control around women. There are plenty of respectful men out there.

The question is, should women change their style of dress so that guys like these aren't tempted?

and I'm telling you've I've never met these men with no self control. I've met men who flirt with a lot of women at the same time. Hell, I'm one of those men. However, loyal to my girlfriend. I've also met women who flirt with men all the time. :) Pretty much every ENFP women in existence has shown me they flirt subconsciously. However, I've never met a man that couldn't control themselves, and I wonder what would happen if a man couldn't? Really, what's he going to do rape the women? If so then those men should be shot. Simple.

You couldn't get every women in the world to change their styles. It's not possible. You can't get every women in the world to agree on one concept, and if you did that then not only would the guys be less tempted but you'd just subject yourself to more punishment. Guy's mostly would just see you are another guy. They would treat you like any other guy, and trust me. You don't want to be treated like any other guy. You're better off wanting to be treated like queens. If I were to treat you like I treat my guy friends you'd probably cry. Wolf knows they have before.

Women tend to forget that when they want everything to be equal. There would be more Man on Women violence. There would be more back stabbing at women. More crude jokes and dirty humor. More subjection of their own kind, and most showing off new gadgets and toys. Most women don't want that. Women want men to be more like Women, and Women are the same or worst. Men will stab you in the front while women will stab you in the back.

Honestly though I can't wait for everyone to be treated the same, and then I get to hear people (men and women) bitching about wanting to be treated differently.
 
What the eff...

I don't get it.

Women make babies. Men fight to have the best woman/best children. Repeat. That's life. Why would you propose a genderless society?
Because a growing number of women including myself aren't interested in having the strong man's babies, and all the obligations to him that come with it. Because more women today are more interested in becoming educated and finding a self-fulfilling career to exercise their talents and interests in rather than having babies young and remaining subject to the 'strong man.'

Just seems that gender-roles and gender-stereotypes serve to alienate people. I'd argue that gender-roles act as a sort of barrier to social change based on the alienating they do. We've loosened up on them much. Had we not, for example, gays would not even be able to come out and enjoy their lives and be true to themselves.
 
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I feel compelled to mention that the kinds of arguments arising now are the arguements I was trying very hard to make clear that I wasn't making. So hopefully people can contrast the two and maybe even see where I'm coming from.

I would say, alt ctrl del (although this isn't just to you), that you talk a lot about a certain kind of society, but not a lot about how to get there or the various stages getting there would imply. You talk about how great it would be, and how we should want it to happen, but simply desiring it won't make it so. Even if the majority desired it, in itself that desire would not bring about the change unless applied in a realistic way.

In contrast, I try to offer a pragmatic way of moving forward, and I'm quickly shot down by women who don't like that it doesn't fit their vision of a perfect society, because there are still some male chauvinist elements in it. This does not, in itself, make me a male chauvinist! Nor does it mean I'm necessarily advancing male chauvinism with my argument! I advocate a revolutionary society, and I tolerate rather than welcome remnants of male chauvinism that will remain in that society, although even that toleration is a temporary thing. I want the motion.

So I have said that some people here are stuck up in Liberalism and are unable to understand my ideas. I think that's true for many, but alt ctrl del is increasingly appearing to be stuck up in a certain kind of anarchism. To really say this for certain, I would have to talk with her much more, but some of the kinds of conflict I'm getting from people like alt ctrl del are very similar to the kinds of conflicts I get into with anarchists. And actually, I respect (progressive) anarchism more than other ideologies, so I don't really mean that as a slur. I just don't feel that anarchism is very materialist, I don't feel that it's really based on the material world and is really going to move things forward. Even if I'm wrong on hitting on anarchism as an influence, I think I'm addressing a kind of argument that I wasn't addressing before.

I could move on to criticize people the arguments that most men seem to be making now, arguments that are, in fact, male chauvinist. However, I'm sure you're all getting tired of reading my posts in this topic, and I mostly agree with the current opposition to these arguments that is being put up now anyway, so I'll just leave it to you all to continue.
 
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Because a growing number of women including myself aren't interested in having the strong man's babies, and all the obligations to him that come with it. Because more women today are more interested in becoming educated and finding a self-fulfilling career to exercise their talents and interests in rather than having babies young and remaining subject to the 'strong man.'

Just seems that gender-roles and gender-stereotypes serve to alienate people. I'd argue that gender-roles act as a sort of barrier to social change based on the alienating they do. We've loosened up on them much. Had we not, for example, gays would not even be able to come out and enjoy their lives and be true to themselves.

I'm all for women being educated, having kick-ass careers. But you gotta understand that we must work together to have children. We build the future through our kids. I don't want a woman to be my subject. I want her to be the best person she can be. I do want a woman that wants to have children, and I want her to be a good mother. I'll take care of the kids too. I want to be a good father.

I don't know where I'm going with this. I'll write more later...
 
Because a growing number of women including myself aren't interested in having the strong man's babies, and all the obligations to him that come with it. Because more women today are more interested in becoming educated and finding a self-fulfilling career to exercise their talents and interests in rather than having babies young and remaining subject to the 'strong man.'

Just seems that gender-roles and gender-stereotypes serve to alienate people. I'd argue that gender-roles act as a sort of barrier to social change based on the alienating they do. We've loosened up on them much. Had we not, for example, gays would not even be able to come out and enjoy their lives and be true to themselves.

Umm, Koba, I hope you're not calling me Liberal. I'm Libertarian through and through. Anyways, time to spend more time on this topic because I just can never seem to get myself away from a good debate.

Women are to not having rights, as Black people are to chicken. Statistically made the fuck up.

I have no clue where you live Alt, but most men 'I know' don't even want a women who doesn't have an education. Then again I only know thinkers when it comes to males with one or two ENFPs and an INFJ as an exception to the group.

I actually expected a lot more from you Alt, but it seems like you just buy into the womenist propaganda nonsensical bullshit. Women can do whatever they want. The only reason most think they have to do what the male wants is because that's how it is shown on TV. Actually, most of the time it's shown that they have an equal relationship, and both care about each others looks, but that is besides the point.

Personally, I believe that if a man or women does not try to farther their education then they are retarded. I don't care how you do it. Learn it on your own, Go to college, Do it in a group. Whatever, but if you don't continue to learn then you're a fucking idiot, and sadly the world is full of idiots on both sides.

Women are, generally, treated better then males at job interviews. I mean wow, you're giving up your fucking advantage. I love it. =) That means when you fail and then realize that you failed it will be all your fault.

I love feminist. Rawr Rawr Fight Da Power


Equality is a Dream that both Men and Women dream of but only a few really want. (like myself)
 
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