Atheists and depression

[sprinkles]

You know he became a preacher....tragi-comedic

Yeah I know. I'm a chaote. o.o

 

[muir]

Yeah I know. I'm a chaote. o.o

Nice!

Join me for a big cosmic belly laugh!

 

[say what]

There was some discussion of the merits of religion in this thread: http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27566

I'm not a religious person, but there are benefits from being engaged in religion. Some of which Magister commented on.

I don't think that there is much correlation between atheism and depression per se. However, there is a significant correlation between depression and a lack of a strong social support network. Churches and other religious organizations often provide such support networks. An atheist in an overwhelmingly religious society is at a strong social disadvantage, which can of course increase the risk of depression. Religious persons living in communities hostile towards their religious beliefs would tend to suffer very similar problems.

I posted the links to some articles that outline the social and health benefits of religion in another thread. There's actually quite a bit of evidence that links religion to positive mental health outcomes - it's not always causal, but even correlation suggests there's something going on.

Here is some basic literature on religion and positive outcomes:

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=...2012-22252-032

http://www.jstor.org/stable/25782172

http://psr.sagepub.com/content/14/1/60.full.pdf

http://link.springer.com/article/10..../fulltext.html

I'm going to be black sheep here and say that I do think there might be a correlation between atheism and depression, but correlation is not causation.

I agree with this, and even the correlation evidence between atheism and depression is still quite thin.

Religion, spirituality and mental health: results from a national study of English households
Michael King, Louise Marston, Sally McManus, Terry Brugha, Howard Meltzer and Paul Bebbington

Published online ahead of print November 22, 2012, British Journal of Psychiatry

Abstract

Background: Religious participation or belief may predict better mental health but most research is American and measures of spirituality are often conflated with well-being.

Aims: To examine associations between a spiritual or religious understanding of life and psychiatric symptoms and diagnoses.

Method: We analysed data collected from interviews with 7403 people who participated in the third National Psychiatric Morbidity Study in England.

Results: Of the participants 35% had a religious understanding of life, 19% were spiritual but not religious and 46% were neither religious nor spiritual. Religious people were similar to those who were neither religious nor spiritual with regard to the prevalence of mental disorders, except that the former were less likely to have ever used drugs (odds ratio (OR) = 0.73, 95% CI 0.60–0.88) or be a hazardous drinker (OR = 0.81, 95% CI 0.69–0.96). Spiritual people were more likely than those who were neither religious nor spiritual to have ever used (OR = 1.24, 95% CI 1.02–1.49) or be dependent on drugs (OR = 1.77, 95% CI 1.20–2.61), and to have abnormal eating attitudes (OR = 1.46, 95% CI 1.10–1.94), generalised anxiety disorder (OR = 1.50, 95% CI 1.09–2.06), any phobia (OR = 1.72, 95% CI 1.07–2.77) or any neurotic disorder (OR = 1.37, 95% CI 1.12–1.68). They were also more likely to be taking psychotropic medication (OR = 1.40, 95% CI 1.05–1.86).

Conclusions: People who have a spiritual understanding of life in the absence of a religious framework are vulnerable to mental disorder.

I think the issue will always be people trying to make a casual relationship between xy and mental health. Health is very rarely the result of a single factor. Mental health especially relies on a lot of complex relationships and factors, thus casuality is difficult to determine. There is evidence that points to atheists reporting more depression, but this again is hard to interpret. Is this because they are more apt to believe in depression? Be treated? Is it linked to less social support through a community of belief? Or is it actually associated with believing there is no God? I imagine one could make a case for each of these plus a million other reasons.

 

[sprinkles]

Just curious: What's the difference between doing whatever you want because you don't believe in God vs doing what you want because you believe in a God that will forgive you for anything you have done, no matter how terrible?

One is probably ignorant and the other is probably ignorant and deluded.

 

[say what]

I'm amazed that you got two thumbs for this non-sense.

It has been argumented that even if religion is false and entirely not true, people are indeed better with religion. Even if religion would be sold to people as a lie, it would be better for people to have a kind of religion. This is because religion brings order and meaning...while atheism leads to chaos and non-sense, because atheism is chaos and non-sense...the story of how chaos emerged to another chaos.
Now I make "even if" case here...but what if religion is actualy true?

I think you're making the same generalized statement about religion that you're arguing was made against it.

People aren't better with religion- it's not about being better or worse...but religion can provide a variety of benefits to individuals. However, those benefits will not be the same for everyone.

I'm sure if one dug, they would find evidence that atheism has positive benefits as well.

The benefits of anything are what the individual takes from it. Religion does offer social support and a community- but that doesn't serve an individual if they don't engage in it.

 

[sprinkles]

The benefits of anything are what the individual takes from it. Religion does offer social support and a community- but that doesn't serve an individual if they don't engage in it.

So does a football club. And maybe the Marines. And Alcoholics Anonymous.

 

[say what]

So does a football club. And maybe the Marines. And Alcoholics Anonymous.

Exactly! It's not the contents of religion or what they preach that likely influences depression, but the contextual factors that come with being apart of something.

I imagine atheism has those same factors. In my mind, I don't see much difference between a group of individuals who are atheists coming together to talk about atheism, and a group of Catholics going to church on Sunday. The content of their meetings might be different- but it's the same premise.

 

[Skarekrow]

This is a silly answer simply because one can answer the same, likewise atheists are depressed when can not justify themselfs with regard to their own beliefs. We can just go on and on if you want on this line.

AND, I have another argument. Atheism means ultimately the anihilation of any authority, of any higher power. In athesim one doesn't have to give a account to somebody, or to anything. Thus athesim is very convenient exactly for people who don't need to justify anything, who make the impression they can mock anything...aka: people that have a childish thinking.
Thus, in answering to your supposed "strong" argument or answer, yes, it is true that atheism don't seek to justify their beliefs...and neither they want to, because atheists are somehow big childrens. They finaly found their way out of a life of responsabilities and "justifying" anything. They are into their own fortress, and they are the king of it. At least so they think...

Why does anyone feel they need to justify themselves to anyone else besides themselves Lucy?
Atheism is not the anihilation of any authority or any higher power...that is anarchism you are talking about.
Why do you think you have a right to mock and demean Atheists on here while expecting people to respect your religious beliefs?
To me...THAT is the childish thinking.
How does atheistic thinking allow people to skirt thier responsiblities? They are the same as you Lucy.
We should all hold the same amount of respect for each other's beliefs.

 

[LucyJr]

Exactly! It's not the contents of religion or what they preach that likely influences depression, but the contextual factors that come with being apart of something.

I imagine atheism has those same factors. In my mind, I don't see much difference between a group of individuals who are atheists coming together to talk about atheism, and a group of Catholics going to church on Sunday. The content of their meetings might be different- but it's the same premise.

I disagree.
It is about the content. There is a very big difference in the content of christianity (or just about any religion) and the content of atheism.
And the content of atheism is in fact very... depressing, if we are to be blunt about it.

But then of course one could easily answer that for him atheism isn't depressing, but rather "freeing" or anything like that. To which the answer, the classic answer is that he doesn't undertstand the big picture yet...there are two options here:
1. Either he is a child, and childrens like to play.
2. Either he is not a child, but he really ultimately doesn't care. So for him atheism is a intellectual foundation to act like a child, caresly.

But the truth is, if he really WOULD care, not PRETEND he would care, atheism brings devastating news. Tragic news...but that's the whole trick...few atheists really do care., just like few religious or chirstians people really do care. Most of the atheists are just happy they can make whatever they want. If they would care, it would be impossible not to be depressed, taking seriouly the content of atheism.

To make this clear...in atheism you can't be sad...there is no happyness in atheism, but neither there is sadness. I mean, one would want to be sad in a real way...but he had to reminds himself that sadness doesn't have any real meaning to it...its just a mechanism of the psyche, a play on the part of evolution...one would want to cry for the absurdity of existence...but then he have to reminds himself the act of crying is nothing...everything is whithout meaning.

But then even Nietzche was a coward, like Chesterton said. yes, he was the most courageous atheist, but still a big coward. He knew the consequences of nihilism, yet still he didn't have the courage to face them. He was a bit afraid. Why?

 

[sprinkles]

Why does anyone feel they need to justify themselves to anyone else besides themselves Lucy?
Atheism is not the anihilation of any authority or any higher power...that is anarchism you are talking about.
Why do you think you have a right to mock and demean Atheists on here while expecting people to respect your religious beliefs?
To me...THAT is the childish thinking.
How does atheistic thinking allow people to skirt thier responsiblities? They are the same as you Lucy.
We should all hold the same amount of respect for each other's beliefs.

He thinks God is the only purpose and ultimate order and without it one inevitably finds life to be empty.

Lulz.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I'm amazed that you got two thumbs for this non-sense.

I see your point, I dont know why people seem to like some of my posts. Maybe its because I say what I really think and dont hold punches. Or something else, who knows.

...while atheism leads to chaos and non-sense, because atheism is chaos and non-sense...

If you could see me right now, like right now at exactly this moment, you would see a palm print on my forehead. Please, explain your thouught process on this one.

...but what if religion is actualy true?

Ok, which one?

 

[LucyJr]

Why does anyone feel they need to justify themselves to anyone else besides themselves Lucy?

Please keep in midn that I was answering to Eventhoryzon on this. He said this:

I have personally found that religious people are depressed when not attempt ing to justify thelselves in regard to their own beliefs.

And yet no one come to accuse him of being disrespectful toward religion and religious values. I answer him, because I think he is so far far away from the truth, and now you come and accuse me of being disrespectful toward atheists.

Why do you think you have a right to mock and demean Atheists on here while expecting people to respect your religious beliefs?

I didn't mock anyone. But is incredibly to me you chose to answer me instead of Eventhorizon.

To me...THAT is the childish thinking.

you know, you are probably right, and I accept this. But hovewer, what I was speaking of is real silly thinking...on large scales.

How does atheistic thinking allow people to skirt thier responsiblities? They are the same as you Lucy.
We should all hold the same amount of respect for each other's beliefs.

You completly change the context of what I said by atheists rejecting responsabilities.

Atheism is not the anihilation of any authority or any higher power...that is anarchism you are talking about.

Well atheism implies anarchism too. It comes as a by-product.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Depression, apart from the kind that results from chemical imbalances due to genetics or some serious drug abuse or psychological trauma, does typically come on the heels of an existential crisis and I think its safe to say that most atheists are born of these.

Seriously? How do you come up with that analysis?

 

[LucyJr]

I see your point, I dont know why people seem to like some of my posts. Maybe its because I say what I really think and dont hold punches. Or something else, who knows.

I was thinking at something else.

If you could see me right now, like right now at exactly this moment, you would see a palm print on my forehead. Please, explain your thouught process on this one.

This is something basic, that atheism is the story of chaos...how it is possible you don't know this?

Ok, which one?

Anyone. Anyone is better than atheism, logically better. Any religion has some metaphysical fundamentals...atheism doesn't, therefore atheism is the worst of all worldviews.

 

[Shaqie]

Anyone. Anyone is better than atheism, logically better. Any religion has some metaphysical fundamentals...atheism doesn't, therefore atheism is the worst of all worldviews.

Why?

 

[sprinkles]

Why?

Satan is apparently better than atheism lol.

 

[say what]

I disagree.
It is about the content. There is a very big difference in the content of christianity (or just about any religion) and the content of atheism.
And the content of atheism is in fact very... depressing, if we are to be blunt about it.

But then of course one could easily answer that for him atheism isn't depressing, but rather "freeing" or anything like that. To which the answer, the classic answer is that he doesn't undertstand the big picture yet...there are two options here:
1. Either he is a child, and childrens like to play.
2. Either he is not a child, but he really ultimately doesn't care. So for him atheism is a intellectual foundation to act like a child, caresly.

But the truth is, if he really WOULD care, not PRETEND he would care, atheism brings devastating news. Tragic news...but that's the whole trick...few atheists really do care., just like few religious or chirstians people really do care. Most of the atheists are just happy they can make whatever they want. If they would care, it would be impossible not to be depressed, taking seriouly the content of atheism.

To make this clear...in atheism you can't be sad...there is no happyness in atheism, but neither there is sadness. I mean, one would want to be sad in a real way...but he had to reminds himself that sadness doesn't have any real meaning to it...its just a mechanism of the psyche, a play on the part of evolution...one would want to cry for the absurdity of existence...but then he have to reminds himself the act of crying is nothing...everything is whithout meaning.

But then even Nietzche was a coward, like Chesterton said. yes, he was the most courageous atheist, but still a big coward. He knew the consequences of nihilism, yet still he didn't have the courage to face them. He was a bit afraid. Why?

It might be depressing for you, but others find the teachings of Christianity depressing. The content of what they are teaching likely has very little to do with their mental health. People aren't apt to follow something that they find is depressing or harmful to their health. To say that atheists are depressed because they find atheism depressing seems very illogical to me.

You condemn people for making generalizations about religion, and then do the exact same things to atheism. I imagine you know very little about it, and also know very few atheists.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Im going to lend a little to the idea that atheism leads to depression from my own experience.

The idea that you have something to blame when things go wrong whereas with no god, there is nothing to blame.

You can take some of the burden off yourself when making bad choices or doing bad things. “The devil made me do it, it wasn’t me. Damn that devil, whew I sure am glad that wasn’t me who went all postal and killed that guy with my own hands, rather a demon that temporarily inhabited my body.” Yeah its nice when you can pass the blame isnt it?

A doctor tired of putting time into trying to cure a patient. “I have done all I can do, its in Gods hands now. Ok we good now? I have a tee time I have to make, see you later.”
And lastly, knowing the truth about things sucks. Not knowing the truth about things doesn’t suck as bad. Simpler said, ignorance really is bliss.

To end, I really believe that if left unchecked, Catholic and Christian religions would fall back to their old ways of witch trials and executions.

 

[LucyJr]

Is unfortunatly that we are in the part of history where atheists don't even know where are their place...they don't know how to see themselfs objectively. They don't even know their worldview...they just know they are atheists. This is the effect of the work of Sam Harris and Richard Dawkings I think.

 

[say what]

Well atheism implies anarchism too. It comes as a by-product.

I would imagine many atheists would disagree with you here