Atheists and depression

Jacobi said:
I engage in open minded exchange of ideas, but it's difficult to do this with people who refuse to accept any other ways of thinking.

What would you suggest when discussing with close minded people?
Click to expand...

Put a crack in their mind? One way or the other?

:m083:
 
Jacobi said:
I like where you're going. Just keep hitting them until they're more open minded.
Click to expand...

Sure, even with a bible. Whatever works...
 
Jacobi said:
I engage in open minded exchange of ideas, but it's difficult to do this with people who refuse to accept any other ways of thinking.

What would you suggest when discussing with close minded people?
Click to expand...
Accept other people's way of thinking, without expecting that they should have to adopt one's own. Also the assumption that others are ignorant closes oneself off the possibility of learning anything - close-mindedness can either come about because one thinks one is all-knowing without qualification, or because one thinks others are completely ignorant without qualification.

Ultimately, to believe, or not believe is a matter of choice, not of knowledge. Some people have a simple faith which does not engage with scientific fact, or a more developed faith. Likewise some people choose not to believe with only a vague tenuous grasp of scientific facts and with a vague tenuous knowledge of religion. This is not necessarily indicative of the validity of their choice, which may be operating on a more personal level, which is why characterising other's choices about atheism/theism as ignorant can only be made in ignorance of the other person. And the personal experience of a person - objective, or subjective is not without value.
 
Reading the OP again, I think I got into the wrong direction, by taking the stance that atheism as a worldview is depressing. I shoud've drive in another direction. Geh, it happens, especialy when I don't even know from where to begin...
[MENTION=5667]Jacobi[/MENTION]
You should say something, instead of being melancholic about your 'great life experiences".
I would suggest to you that being closed-minded does nothing to do with what is the truth. So a closed-minded person is not necessarely false... You are a INTJ, I think you can grasp this difference.
[MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION]
Please don't "explain" what I meant to say, if you don't have the willingness to quote me.


Eventhorizon said:
Isnt that a way of saying you dont have an argument to stand on?
Click to expand...

No.
 
LucyJr said:
Reading the OP again, I think I got into the wrong direction, by taking the stance that atheism as a worldview is depressing. I shoud've drive in another direction. Geh, it happens, especialy when I don't even know from where to begin...
[MENTION=5667]Jacobi[/MENTION]
You should say something, instead of being melancholic about your 'great life experiences".
I would suggest to you that being closed-minded does nothing to do with what is the truth. So a closed-minded person is not necessarely false... You are a INTJ, I think you can grasp this difference.
[MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION]
Please don't "explain" what I meant to say, if you don't have the willingness to quote me.




No.
Click to expand...

I think it is. I think its a way of saying you dont have a step to begin with and defend. Example, I asked you two questions concerning comments you made regarding my posts in an effort to find common ground. You ignored both as you have before in the past. You just want to make statements and have them accepted as fact and truth, something that will NEVER happen with me. Ever. Not because of you being you but because its something I dont do with anything or anyone.
 
So its all about the "concept" of closed-mindness, huh? Why do I have the impression that this really is a way of saying nothing about what needs to be said, which is the truth?
its interesting how people drove in the crucial moment the concept of closed-mindness...this is almost a rule in every discussion.
"Let the truth, let the false, the question is...are you being closed-minded?"
 
Truth cant be something that is "believed" truth is something that has to be supported by fact.
 
So if we can start this we can have a discussion but "discussions" cant be solely made of statements.
 
Eventhorizon said:
I think it is. I think its a way of saying you dont have a step to begin with and defend. Example, I asked you two questions concerning comments you made regarding my posts in an effort to find common ground. You ignored both as you have before in the past. You just want to make statements and have them accepted as fact and truth, something that will NEVER happen with me. Ever. Not because of you being you but because its something I dont do with anything or anyone.
Click to expand...
No man, to be honest with you, its just that i'm lazy, believe me or not.
I know i have to writte alot, like really alot...and it gives me head pains. And I also kind of lack enough time.

I intend to writte down in the future the answers to the usual questions and save them in the computer, thus being prepared.
 
LucyJr said:
No man, to be honest with you, its just that i'm lazy, believe me or not.
I know i have to writte alot, like really alot...and it gives me head pains. And I also kind of lack enough time.

I intend to writte down in the future the answers to the usual questions and save them in the computer, thus being prepared.
Click to expand...

So'k.
 
Eventhorizon said:
So if we can start this we can have a discussion but "discussions" cant be solely made of statements.
Click to expand...

Statements aren't the problem - it's whether they are pertinent, and whether they engage with what the other person is saying. I think close-out statements are a problem, the kind that negate others' statements without explanation.


On the OP, I think that there are kinds of religion and kinds of atheism which close-out paths to seeking new knowledge/wisdom/insight/meaning. Atheism cannot simply be about denying there is truth in religion, without being a closing-off to the search for wisdom. "Good" atheism must be about trying to find truth and wisdom by another path than religion, such as science. Conversely religion, if it is the quest for God, cannot include a rejection of science - if that religion holds that God is the creator of the physical universe. I think that "good" religion is about seeking wisdom through both science and through association with God.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
On the OP, I think that there are kinds of religion and kinds of atheism which close-out paths to seeking new knowledge/wisdom/insight/meaning. Atheism cannot simply be about denying there is truth in religion, without being a closing-off to the search for wisdom. "Good" atheism must be about trying to find truth and wisdom by another path than religion, such as science. Conversely religion, if it is the quest for God, cannot include a rejection of science - if that religion holds that God is the creator of the physical universe. I think that "good" religion is about seeking wisdom through both science and through association with God.
Click to expand...

This is a fantastic way to point it. Within the context of the OP, does this suggest that it is neither the presence or absence of religion but yet the individual's desire to seek out more that may fuel the depression?
 
say what said:
This is a fantastic way to point it. Within the context of the OP, does this suggest that it is neither the presence or absence of religion but yet the individual's desire to seek out more that may fuel the depression?
Click to expand...

I think that when people close themselves off from searching for truth/wisdom/beauty/etc., telling themselves that they've got all the answers. it can go two ways:

1. They lose meaning and become implicitly frustrated and explicitly depressed.
2. They lose meaning and become implicitly frustrated and explicitly angry.

(IMHO I think that anger and depression are very closely related).

I think that close-minded atheists can go either angry, or depressed; but close-minded religious always seem to go angry.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
I think that when people close themselves off from searching for truth/wisdom/beauty/etc., telling themselves that they've got all the answers. it can go two ways:

1. They lose meaning and become implicitly frustrated and explicitly depressed.
2. They lose meaning and become implicitly frustrated and explicitly angry.

(IMHO I think that anger and depression are very closely related).

I think that close-minded atheists can go either angry, or depressed; but close-minded religious always seem to go angry.
Click to expand...

I've been saying this in other threads - it's my motto of the month - but I think they could be bread out of fear. Of course, I also believe close-mindedness is likely the result of it too - fear of realizing what you know might not be true.

Seeking truth and learning seems like it's the natural motion to life. When you stop, you become stagnant.
 
say what said:
I've been saying this in other threads - it's my motto of the month - but I think they could be bread out of fear. Of course, I also believe close-mindedness is likely the result of it too - fear of realizing what you know might not be true.

Seeking truth and learning seems like it's the natural motion to life. When you stop, you become stagnant.
Click to expand...
I don't think anger, or depression necessarily come about because of fear itself. Whatever is provoking fear is what drives depression, or anger. In some instances fear may determine if one's response to negative stimuli will be depressed, or angry. If fear is paralysing, then depression. If fear is challenging, then anger. But I think there is a lot of anger and depression, which has little to do with fear.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
I don't think anger, or depression necessarily come about because of fear itself. Whatever is provoking fear is what drives depression, or anger. In some instances fear may determine if one's response to negative stimuli will be depressed, or angry. If fear is paralysing, then depression. If fear is challenging, then anger. But I think there is a lot of anger and depression, which has little to do with fear.
Click to expand...

This is very much off topic- but the idea is that the cause of the anger and depression is often formed out of fear. What I've been reading lately suggests that when we take our complex emotions and negative thoughts (which often fuels both anger and depression), they can be broken down into simple truths which often come from fear. In some regards depression/anger resembles the 'flight/fight' response of fear. This is mostly just my thoughts rather than fact/opinion...but the more I read, the more I believe that much of our actions/inaction stems from fear.
 
say what said:
This is very much off topic- but the idea is that the cause of the anger and depression is often formed out of fear. What I've been reading lately suggests that when we take our complex emotions and negative thoughts (which often fuels both anger and depression), they can be broken down into simple truths which often come from fear. In some regards depression/anger resembles the 'flight/fight' response of fear. This is mostly just my thoughts rather than fact/opinion...but the more I read, the more I believe that much of our actions/inaction stems from fear.
Click to expand...
I know what you are saying. It boils down to whether you look as the cause for anger as being an objective stimulus, or our subjective response to stimulus. However, this looks as anger as a response. I think some people just decide to be angry - almost arbitrarily - and find some sort of satisfaction in it - either in itself, or because of the effect it has in their dealings.

Perhaps there are two schools of thought - whether all that we do is simply an effect of influences - or whether we can freely decide what to do/feel. I think that both are true, but I get the impression that determinism is the prevailing implicit view in psychology: that people are the way they are because of external causes (present, or historical).
 
In response to the OP

Ever heard of The Dark Night Of The Soul by Saint John Of The Cross?. Your faith wouldn't be as beautiful without your dose of doubt, despair and hopelessness...
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top