Cheating

[invisible]

I'm not emotionally naive enough to think that people cheat exclusively because they want a fuck, I just don't accept emotional needs as any more meaningful an excuse than needing sex. Engaging in a sexual act is a process with a lot of decisions involved, it doesn't go straight from having your hair admired to being in bed, there are a lot of things leading from one of those things to the other, which require active participation.

I'm fed up with all the talk about refraining from judging people and allowing other people their own realities. I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me, but I think there's a point at which people just have to suck it up and take responsibility for their behaviour by admitting they did a crappy thing and treated another person badly who unjustly suffered for it.

There's no necessary connection to fixing a relationship from this. If people want to fix the relationship and work on the relationship, that's fine. What is causative of cheating is a person who doesn't know how to appropriately negotiate and communicate, or a person who just does whatever they want to, not an inadequate needs satisfaction. And that's the problem of the person who cheats, not the wronged party.

 

[aeon]

I'm not emotionally naive enough to think that people cheat exclusively because they want a fuck, I just don't accept emotional needs as any more meaningful an excuse than needing sex.

Again, in discussing needs, no one is talking about excusing anything.

Engaging in a sexual act is a process with a lot of decisions involved, it doesn't go straight from having your hair admired to being in bed, there are a lot of things leading from one of those things to the other, which require active participation.

Absolutely, and with that active choice and participation comes responsibility for those choices and actions.

I'm fed up with all the talk about refraining from judging people and allowing other people their own realities.

Refrain from judging people for their person, but have an open field day with judging their actions, should you so choose to make a value judgment.


Cheers,
Ian

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

I'm not emotionally naive enough to think that people cheat exclusively because they want a fuck, I just don't accept emotional needs as any more meaningful an excuse than needing sex. Engaging in a sexual act is a process with a lot of decisions involved, it doesn't go straight from having your hair admired to being in bed, there are a lot of things leading from one of those things to the other, which require active participation.

I'm fed up with all the talk about refraining from judging people and allowing other people their own realities. I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me, but I think there's a point at which people just have to suck it up and take responsibility for their behaviour by admitting they did a crappy thing and treated another person badly who unjustly suffered for it.

There's no necessary connection to fixing a relationship from this. If people want to fix the relationship and work on the relationship, that's fine. What is causative of cheating is a person who doesn't know how to appropriately negotiate and communicate, or a person who just does whatever they want to, not an inadequate needs satisfaction. And that's the problem of the person who cheats, not the wronged party.

Yeah, if the offended decides to permanently end the relationship after the infidelity there is no need to consider unmet needs or communication. It's over. If both parties want to save the relationship, then gaining awareness of both of their needs and the development of an effective means of communication is essential. No where in either scenario is the cheater pardoned for their actions or string of actions. Infidelity is not OK ever. Unless both partners agree to it in which case it's not infidelity, but weird.

 

[invisible]

I disagree, I think that making excuses is exactly what people talk about when they talk about needs. I have heard basically, variations on exactly this thing before: "My needs weren't being met." I've never heard that go together with "I acted like a jerk".

Discriminating between judging people and their actions. They did cheating actions, they aren't a cheating person. I think I understand the importance of that. It's a meaningful distinction, and probably the most helpful one. But I admit that I personally just don't care about the fragility of the personhood of the person who cheated to require that kind of distinction.

It's not a problem with the relationship when a person can't communicate or negotiate, it's a problem with that person who did the cheating. What that person needs, their knowledge of it, and their ability to communicate it, is their problem, and not a problem with the relationship. They are the one who has to work on those things and understand them, regardless of whether the relationship continues or not.

 

[invisible]

I don't think it's weird for people to have sex with other people outside a relationship if they both agree to it and are happy with it. If that's what people decide makes them happy, good for them.

 

[invisible]

When an addict takes responsibility for their behaviour, they describe themselves as an addict as part of taking responsibility for it. "I'm dependent on alcohol. I'm an alcoholic. I need to understand and work on this problem." They don't fuss around with "I'm not an alcoholic, I just do alcoholic behaviours."

What is the huge barrier to the cheater saying "I cheated on my partner. I'm a cheater. I need to understand and work on this problem." Why is that too much to expect?

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

I have heard basically, variations on exactly this thing before: "My needs weren't being met." I've never heard that go together with "I acted like a jerk".

Maybe not in your past or current relationships, but you will hear exactly this in a therapeutic setting. "I fucked up." "I was selfish." Why? "I don't know. I tried everything to get invisible to hug me, but all he cared about was his Just Dance video game." Invisible, what happened? "This asshole, kept bugging me when I just wanted to dance."

You're right in your views on infidelity. Recognizing how both parties contributed to the failing of the relationship is only necessary when reconciliation is the goal. The therapeutic process, where unmet needs will surely be discussed, can help relationships to not only recover from infidelity, but thrive. The process can also help the individuals become aware of their own fears, insecurities, and needs while also giving them the tools to communicate as well as receive the messages of the other individual in the relationship.

Unmet needs is not an excuse for infidelity. Neither is inability to effectively communicate or lack of self awareness. I am only speaking from the standpoint of reconciliation and the importance of truly understanding your partner in such a process. To reconcile, the cheater needs to admit fault, accept responsibility, express genuine remorse, seek forgiveness and develop the necessary skills to communicate and or fight fairly. The offended partner must be willing to reconcile, forgive, not dangle that shit over their partners head as punishment, develop the necessary skills to communicate.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

What is the huge barrier to the cheater saying "I cheated on my partner. I'm a cheater. I need to understand and work on this problem." Why is that too much to expect?

It's not, but it is. In the same way people are afraid to acknowledge they need to feel loved and accepted as they are. That requires a level of vulnerability that many people are afraid of. That response rarely happens outside of therapy. Unless people genuinely want to be better, they will find any excuse to justify their behavior and run from responsibility. It doesn't mean they are bad people. It means they are ignorant of a better way, or are afraid. Usually both.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

I don't think it's weird for people to have sex with other people outside a relationship if they both agree to it and are happy with it. If that's what people decide makes them happy, good for them.

You're right. I often make poor attempts at humor. My apologies

 

[invisible]

Maybe not in your past or current relationships, but you will hear exactly this in a therapeutic setting. "I fucked up." "I was selfish." Why? "I don't know. I tried everything to get invisible to hug me, but all he cared about was his Just Dance video game." Invisible, what happened? "This asshole, kept bugging me when I just wanted to dance."

You're right in your views on infidelity. Recognizing how both parties contributed to the failing of the relationship is only necessary when reconciliation is the goal. The therapeutic process, where unmet needs will surely be discussed, can help relationships to not only recover from infidelity, but thrive. The process can also help the individuals become aware of their own fears, insecurities, and needs while also giving them the tools to communicate as well as receive the messages of the other individual in the relationship.

Unmet needs is not an excuse for infidelity. Neither is inability to effectively communicate or lack of self awareness. I am only speaking from the standpoint of reconciliation and the importance of truly understanding your partner in such a process. To reconcile, the cheater needs to admit fault, accept responsibility, express genuine remorse, seek forgiveness and develop the necessary skills to communicate and or fight fairly. The offended partner must be willing to reconcile, forgive, not dangle that shit over their partners head as punishment, develop the necessary skills to communicate.

These problems happen in all relationships. All relationships require maintenance and equal communication and understanding. There are times in all relationships when someone feels alone, neglected, ignored. This is a normal relationship fluctuation and activity. People will touch base with each other, discuss all the little grievances, figure out what makes them work together and what doesn't.

It doesn't take cheating to do this. People aren't driven to cheat by these little disagreements. The disagreements happen in all relationships. Not all relationships have cheating as part of their course or breakdown. Relationships break down and fail without another person being involved, all the time, just because people mutually (or not so mutually) decide that the relationship is not working out and they will not continue to participate.

If it was these little disagreements that caused the person to cheat, both partners would have cheated at the same time. It's not those things. This is a problem of the person who cheats to recognise own needs, to address concerns with their partner, to make open decisions that are respectful of their partner, about whether they want to continue to participate in the relationship in the way that it has been formulated and the way that it stands.

 

[aeon]

"My needs weren't being met."

To which the proper response would be: “And why were you not taking responsibility for your own needs, and/or asking for help in meeting them?”


Cheers,
Ian

 

[invisible]

To which the proper response would be: “And why were you not taking responsibility for your own needs, and/or asking for help in meeting them?”


Cheers,
Ian

I agree.

 

[invisible]

I feel like I've talked myself around to agreeing with the needs narrative, but I still really don't. Lots of people go through life without experiencing a steady sexual or intimate relationship and they don't complain about their needs not being met in a relationship, they just keep trying to do their best. I just think it's a crappy way of excusing that you screwed someone over because you didn't get what you want.

 

[aeon]

I just think it's a crappy way of excusing that you screwed someone over because you didn't get what you want.

It’s not about excusing anything, and indeed, nothing is excused.

That said, inasmuch as this narrative seems to present strongly for you, it may be a good lens through which to study your values and interior frameworks as it regards relationships and infidelities.

Needs are personal, and individual, so they are the responsibility of each person, and none other. Needs may help to explain what informed a choice, but they never excuse a choice, and they can never become the responsibility of some one else.


Cheers,
Ian

 

[aeon]

Lots of people go through life without experiencing a steady sexual or intimate relationship and they don't complain about their needs not being met in a relationship, they just keep trying to do their best.

Doing our best is all we can do in any case. But as to not voicing need in this regard, there are many reasons. The ones that have to do with social shaming and fear of being vulnerable suck.


Thanks,
Ian

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

These problems happen in all relationships. All relationships require maintenance and equal communication and understanding.

Not all relationships involve people that are aware of this and are willing to exert the effort necessary to sustain it in a healthy, mutual beneficial way.

There are times in all relationships when someone feels alone, neglected, ignored. This is a normal relationship fluctuation and activity. People will touch base with each other, discuss all the little grievances, figure out what makes them work together and what doesn't.

My position is in defense of the unmet needs narrative as @aeon mentioned, which is not even necessary to consider for a relationships.

Infidelity in an unmet needs situation, usually, not always, occurs after a prolonged period of the relationship being in a poor state.

Not all relationships involve people that understand the importance of or even know how to touch base and sort things out. Your are correct that it is an issue with the individual. Sometimes a loving partner will attempt to help the other deal with their issues. Other times not.

It doesn't take cheating to do this

Fuck no it doesn't! And yet somehow, it was justified in the cheaters mind.

If it was these little disagreements that caused the person to cheat, both partners would have cheated at the same time. It's not those things. This is a problem of the person who cheats to recognise own needs, to address concerns with their partner, to make open decisions that are respectful of their partner, about whether they want to continue to participate in the relationship in the way that it has been formulated and the way that it stands

I disagree that they would both cheat at the same time or that they would both cheat period. I agree with the rest and will add that in such a situation, it is also about the other partner receiving and responding to attempts at communication in a healthy way.

I feel like I've talked myself around to agreeing with the needs narrative, but I still really don't. Lots of people go through life without experiencing a steady sexual or intimate relationship and they don't complain about their needs not being met in a relationship, they just keep trying to do their best. I just think it's a crappy way of excusing that you screwed someone over because you didn't get what you want

Cheating is bullshit no matter how its sliced. The needs narrative only applies to couples (both parties) that wish to save the relationship after infidelity. It's a matter of fixing all the points you expressed.

 

[invisible]

I don't agree, and I don't think this is a cause for which I should examine my own values and interior frameworks. I don't think that what is being described is needs, but rather I think that what is being described is personal priorities and expectations. Describing this kind of thing as needs-based puts it in the realm of something of a congenitally arising right, when it is not a right but a privilege to be in a relationship with another person. It suggests that a person was deprived of rights rather than that they willingly entered into an agreement and then for whatever reason they did not manage to maintain the terms of the agreement. I don't think a needs narrative applies to anyone, I think what applies is a fair and open negotiation about expectations and priorities. What do you want and expect out of this relationship? If these can't be met or are refused to be met, then the contract shouldn't be entered into. If a contract has been made and the agreement is not being fulfilled, then people should renegotiate the contract or end the contract, not covertly dishonour the terms of the agreement. I'm happy that there are multiple perspectives on this in the world and that we don't all agree. There need to be many ways of seeing something in order to achieve anything at all.

 

[hush]

I thought I remembered there bring a similar thread, although this one is technically older, just resurrected.

http://www.infjs.com/threads/withholding-affection-and-cheating.30604/

I pretty much still stand by what I said there.

No, I don't think it's ok, and I agree with what purplecrayons and Dragon have said.

I find it to be a betrayal of trust, and a betrayal of your partner. If you're straying because affection is being withheld:

1.) Why is it being withheld
2.) If there's a legitimate reason, which I suspect there is, why aren't you respecting it and your partner?
3.) If you're at the point where it's being withheld because the relationship is over, then it's over. End the relationship and don't cheat on your partner
4.) Don't cheat on your partner
5.) ... Don't cheat on your partner

6.) Just don't.

 

[aeon]

Describing this kind of thing as needs-based puts it in the realm of something of a congenitally arising right

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I think what applies is a fair and open negotiation about expectations and priorities. What do you want and expect out of this relationship? If these can't be met or are refused to be met, then the contract shouldn't be entered into. If a contract has been made and the agreement is not being fulfilled, then people should renegotiate the contract or end the contract, not covertly dishonour the terms of the agreement.

I agree with that 100%.


Cheers,
Ian

 

[invisible]

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I don't really like to argue about the truth, but as far as I can see it, it is the truth. We'll have to agree that there are different possible perspectives on this.