Compassion for dying convicts

[say what]

Many do understand it as kindness if it is delivered well. Many don't - some see it as an opportunity to strike.

But really, what do you want to control you? Hmm? What would you put down your life for?

My step uncle or whatever one would call him had gone to prison for a long time for armed robbery of a store. He got out, got married, had a kid. He mostly stayed out of trouble but still had a hard time because most people treated him poorly and he couldn't really get a job. His also still had quite a prison mentality and his new wife found out she couldn't deal with that so she left and he ended up on the street pretty much.

I actually let him stay with me. I made it clear that I was not going to tolerate any shit, that I'd let him stay with the condition of "stay out of trouble." He stayed out of trouble (most of the time anyway) and was actually very respectful of me in general, and was very appreciative. I could tell that he still had that dishonest streak in him, but he was really trying to suppress it and do right. He really wasn't a completely bad person, but everybody treated him like shit except for me mostly so he almost kind of clung to me as a lifeline that he wouldn't dare mess up.

He did really well considering and I helped him get to his parole officer, doctor, wherever good he needed to go. Things were looking up until I ran into financial trouble and ended up basically homeless myself for a short time and I had to let him go to his friends.

After that it was only a couple years until he got himself sent back to prison because he felt he was better off there, he couldn't handle it out here.

Wow, Sprinkles, that's an incredible story. You showed such compassion and kindness taking your step uncle in. I think it's those little actions - giving him human respect to make sure he's not on the street - that is important.

I do think people will take advantage, but as I said in another thread- if your true intentions are kind, then it's ok...because the amount of good you can do with kindness, outweighs the potential negativity of that person being selfish.

Prison is a complex place. It's horrible and awful, and yet some people feel comfort there because in some ways, they are safe. I wouldn't wish prison on anyone. The social isolation, abuse, violence, demoralization...it's hard. I often question whether prison doesn't make people worse. Someone can go in for doing a petty crime, and come out much more violent.

 

[sprinkles]

Alright man, I guess its good to know this is your style for future reference.

Just in case you appreciate feedback I dont think you do discussion very well, its pretty confusing and I get the impression you're involved in some sort of contest I can only guess at.

BTW I'm 34 and never had any run in with the authorities, let alone any convictions, it was totally effortless.

So why should death for everything be a problem? Even if you don't answer it to me, answer it to yourself.

If it's so effortless and you're averse to compassion then why bother with the whole "punishment fits the crime" thing?

This is your logical mess, you deal with it.

 

[say what]

But what if the person never understand what he did fuly? Does he understand what great gift he gets from such people?
He might live countinously whithout any guilt for what he did, whithout any remorse. If this is the case, I think kindness only makes things worse.

Why does the person need to understand? Kindness is not about the outcome, it's about the action. Kindness is all about yourself, and has nothing to do with the individual you give it to.

 

[say what]

Last I checked its not difficult to avoid becoming a criminal, in fact it actually involves doing nothing at all, you have to actually proactively behave in a manner to warrant prosecution and this following due process, jury of your peers etc. etc.

You dont like the natural consequences that go with being a criminal then dont commit any fucking crimes. Sheesh.

What about the lives of victims? Huh? They count for much with yah?

What about the people who are placed in circumstances that lead to them committing the crime- such as child soldiers? Any soldier.

Discounting the fact that as soon as you pop out of the womb your chances of committing a crime significantly increase if you live in poverty - couple that with social factors such as education of your parents, household income, if you're of a minority ethnicity, the number of and type of jobs your parents have, the type of house you live in, where you live....etc. The list goes on. yes there is an individual factor associated with behaviours and actions, but there is a wealth of knowledge out there that tells us that political, politicly, community, household, environmental, social, etc. factors also influence your behaviour.

It's not as simple as "you committed a crime you're bad"...it's a complex situation.

 

[LucyJr]

Why does the person need to understand? Kindness is not about the outcome, it's about the action. Kindness is all about yourself, and has nothing to do with the individual you give it to.

I agree with you.

But then there are people who are being "kind" because they are stupid, not because they really are kind.
If a criminal is being sentenced to a punishment, and the Court says "I forgive you, go home!" what is that? Kindness, or stupidity?

 

[say what]

Sure but are you doing a kindness if you're just validating some pretty ugly thinking and acting? Probably not, you could be indirectly responsible to the further victims of Mr or Mrs No-Good, not arguing against kindness but there's plenty of ways to channel that, better ways than appeasement, whether its intended as appeasement or not.

How? This makes no sense.

You're not validating or reinforcing their behaviour by showing them compassion.

 

[Lark]

What about the people who are placed in circumstances that lead to them committing the crime- such as child soldiers? Any soldier.

Discounting the fact that as soon as you pop out of the womb your chances of committing a crime significantly increase if you live in poverty - couple that with social factors such as education of your parents, household income, if you're of a minority ethnicity, the number of and type of jobs your parents have, the type of house you live in, where you live....etc. The list goes on. yes there is an individual factor associated with behaviours and actions, but there is a wealth of knowledge out there that tells us that political, politicly, community, household, environmental, social, etc. factors also influence your behaviour.

It's not as simple as "you committed a crime you're bad"...it's a complex situation.

Did you believe that was what I was saying? How did you reach that conclusion?

 

[say what]

Then make all crimes punishable by death.

Speeding? Death. Parking violation? Death. Littering? Graffiti? Loitering? Breaking curfew? Death. Misfile your taxes? DEATH! FUCKING LEARN TO ADD! Don't tell me you have an excuse to do these.

What's the fucking point? Just kill them all and get them out of the way if it's all their fault.

By your reasoning the justice system is currently stupid and entirely inefficient and creating its own problems by not simply eliminating everybody who breaks the law. Fuck human rights. Break the law, you're not human.

I agree. Not to mention the law gets it wrong a lot of times too. Here's a perfect example that's in the news right now:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/gerry-barton-s-rape-conviction-falls-apart-after-family-feud-surfaces-1.2602243

 

[sprinkles]

What about the people who are placed in circumstances that lead to them committing the crime- such as child soldiers? Any soldier.

Discounting the fact that as soon as you pop out of the womb your chances of committing a crime significantly increase if you live in poverty - couple that with social factors such as education of your parents, household income, if you're of a minority ethnicity, the number of and type of jobs your parents have, the type of house you live in, where you live....etc. The list goes on. yes there is an individual factor associated with behaviours and actions, but there is a wealth of knowledge out there that tells us that political, politicly, community, household, environmental, social, etc. factors also influence your behaviour.

It's not as simple as "you committed a crime you're bad"...it's a complex situation.

Not only that but I find the idea that doing something like giving somebody a nice peaceful place to die in would somehow validate and perpetrate more crimes to be so fricking far out of sense that it makes me slightly insane.

My brain cannot compute that. It has blown a fuse.

 

[Lark]

How? This makes no sense.

You're not validating or reinforcing their behaviour by showing them compassion.

Really? Why does it make no sense when you were able to articulate a response like that?

Its fine, you dont agree, if I'm mistaken we're going to see crime end as a phenomenon pretty soon, at least in the UK were the compassion you speak of has been official government policy from about 1997.

Would you like me to update with a post when crime disappears?

 

[sprinkles]

Did you believe that was what I was saying? How did you reach that conclusion?

Well that's the feeling I got too and I went so far as to question you about what you were implying before I jumped, and from your response I gleaned a stance that revulsion is somehow an integrated part of the system.

This stance is not really a big leap from where you were standing. Even if your opinion is actually more complex, you could have expounded.

 

[say what]

Yes, it could go that way too.

Either he thinks he spent some time in prison, and now he deserves some kindness and compassion, which is wrong (the message sent is not the message received), because the one who is doing the service thinks he is doing something unconditional, something beyond the borders of what is normaly understood as kindness. Hovewer, the criminal doesn't get the message, because he thinks he deserves the compassion.

Or, like you said, he could peceive it as a weakness. He might think and delud himself in his stupidity, perhaps even thinking that he gets kindness because he is being feared. In this case also, the message sent isn't the messgae received.

Your understanding of how people learn and the properties behind reinforcing behaviour (good or bad) is waaaay off. You might be interested in reading more about it, especially in the context of forensic psychology.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Im curious. When someone says "criminal" what is the first thing that pops to mind. Do you think of someone that is "wrong", that cant integrate with society...etc?

A criminal can be someone who broke a law that if you knew about the law, you may not agree with either. Granted there are people that shouldn't be on the streets.

 

[say what]

I agree with you.

But then there are people who are being "kind" because they are stupid, not because they really are kind.
If a criminal is being sentenced to a punishment, and the Court says "I forgive you, go home!" what is that? Kindness, or stupidity?

You can still punish a criminal and show kindness. I think you're viewing kindness in a very black and white fashion. Kindness can be a small gesture of respect. It doesn't have to be forgiveness.

 

[say what]

Unconditional kindness and compasssion is always a bonus...it is UNDESERVING. Thta's the whole idea of it, otherwise it wouldn't be unconditional.

???

I'm actually confused by this and say this with genuine shock- but doesn't your faith, Christianity, tell you everyone deserve kindness and compassion?

 

[sprinkles]

Im curious. When someone says "criminal" what is the first thing that pops to mind. Do you think of someone that is "wrong", that cant integrate with society...etc?

A criminal can be someone who broke a law that if you knew about the law, you may not agree with either. Granted there are people that shouldn't be on the streets.

That's a good question to bring up.

By criminal I mean convict or law breaker. Moral wrongs do not make one a criminal, and being a law breaker doesn't even always make one morally wrong because we can have stupid laws.

 

[say what]

Did you believe that was what I was saying? How did you reach that conclusion?

I got that impression when you said:

[QUOTE]Last I checked its not difficult to avoid becoming a criminal, in fact it actually involves doing nothing at all, you have to actually proactively behave in a manner to warrant prosecution and this following due process, jury of your peers etc. etc.

You dont like the natural consequences that go with being a criminal then dont commit any fucking crimes. Sheesh.

What about the lives of victims? Huh? They count for much with yah?[/QUOTE]


Also, being kind to a criminal does not denote the suffering or injustice that the victims have experienced.

Being kind is not forgiving and wiping the slate clean- it's simply giving another human, human respect.

 

[say what]

Really? Why does it make no sense when you were able to articulate a response like that?

Its fine, you dont agree, if I'm mistaken we're going to see crime end as a phenomenon pretty soon, at least in the UK were the compassion you speak of has been official government policy from about 1997.

Would you like me to update with a post when crime disappears?

This is NOT a conversation about eliminating crime- it's about showing compassion to another human.

If you're interested in eliminating crime, you'd have to open up the idea of integrating a variety of other factors (which I've listed already) into the equation.

You're missing the point completely. Showing kindness to someone who has committed an crime is not going to (a) solve the issue of crime, (b) make them commit more crime, (c) disregard the injustice of the families/individuals who were hurt, and/or (d) insinuate what they did was okay and forgiven.

To say kindness does this, means you are misinterpreting what we're calling kindness.

 

[LucyJr]

???

I'm actually confused by this and say this with genuine shock- but doesn't your faith, Christianity, tell you everyone deserve kindness and compassion?

No, you have a missunderstandig with regard to christian doctrines. Here is exactly what the Bible says everyone deserves:
"The payment for sin is death, but the gift that God freely gives is everlasting life found in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Firstly, the payment, which is death.
Secondly, the gift, which is UNDESERVING, that's why its called a gift, because nobody deserves it.

 

[LucyJr]

You can still punish a criminal and show kindness. I think you're viewing kindness in a very black and white fashion. Kindness can be a small gesture of respect. It doesn't have to be forgiveness.

And I would agree with you.
But my point was that a non-sense kindness can make the criminal worse.