Compassion for dying convicts

[sprinkles]

No but introducing it to a discussion is, wouldnt you say?

I dont believe that comparing the decisions of lawful criminal justice regimes to human rights violations in the third world is comparing like with life or that there is any moral equivalence there, although that could be straying off topic.

We're not talking about lawful criminal justice. We're talking about how criminals are effectively thrown away to rot.

Socially a criminal's life really is chopped off most of the time, even well after they've served their legal sentence.

 

[LucyJr]

Did his victiom died with dignity?

 

[LucyJr]

So I'm not speaking in the abstract, not suggesting that you are either but lets be realistic.

I'm not arguing for stiffer or harsher sentencing either or more punitive measures but what I would suggest is that while well meaning and big hearted individuals will want to exemplify compassion etc. it is more often than not going to be one of the clearest cases of "the message sent is not the message received" there is. All of which is less and less likely to add to or amount to the sort of cultural revulsion at the sorts of behaviour branded as criminal which is totally and utterly requisite to fighting crime in the first instance.

I think kindness and compassion goes hand in hand with justice. They aren't contradictory at any level.
Many understand kindness as something which makes justice invalid, in a wheel chair. That's not kindness, that's stupidity.

 

[LucyJr]

I think it also depends on the level of sanity of which the criminal is at that particular point. Does he understand what he did? Does he understand what he deserves??? To receive forgiveness one first have to understand fuly what he has made, and what he deserves as a punishemnt. Then, and only then, it could be about kindness. He canonly understand the meaning of kindness if he fuly understands what he did and what he deserves.
Unonditional kindness is not whithout foundation...there is such a thing as conditional kindness. One receives kindness because he deserves kindness. That is perfectly correct. Unconditional kindness goes further, but only if the receiver understand it and can comprehends its implications...otherwise, we could be unconditionaly kind with a rock?

 

[say what]

Kindness should not depend on whether or not the recipient understands it as kindness. If it is true kindness, it doesn't matter.

 

[sprinkles]

Kindness should not depend on whether or not the recipient understands it as kindness. If it is true kindness, it doesn't matter.

Many do understand it as kindness if it is delivered well. Many don't - some see it as an opportunity to strike.

But really, what do you want to control you? Hmm? What would you put down your life for?

My step uncle or whatever one would call him had gone to prison for a long time for armed robbery of a store. He got out, got married, had a kid. He mostly stayed out of trouble but still had a hard time because most people treated him poorly and he couldn't really get a job. His also still had quite a prison mentality and his new wife found out she couldn't deal with that so she left and he ended up on the street pretty much.

I actually let him stay with me. I made it clear that I was not going to tolerate any shit, that I'd let him stay with the condition of "stay out of trouble." He stayed out of trouble (most of the time anyway) and was actually very respectful of me in general, and was very appreciative. I could tell that he still had that dishonest streak in him, but he was really trying to suppress it and do right. He really wasn't a completely bad person, but everybody treated him like shit except for me mostly so he almost kind of clung to me as a lifeline that he wouldn't dare mess up.

He did really well considering and I helped him get to his parole officer, doctor, wherever good he needed to go. Things were looking up until I ran into financial trouble and ended up basically homeless myself for a short time and I had to let him go to his friends.

After that it was only a couple years until he got himself sent back to prison because he felt he was better off there, he couldn't handle it out here.

 

[LucyJr]

Kindness should not depend on whether or not the recipient understands it as kindness. If it is true kindness, it doesn't matter.

But what if the person never understand what he did fuly? Does he understand what great gift he gets from such people?
He might live countinously whithout any guilt for what he did, whithout any remorse. If this is the case, I think kindness only makes things worse.

 

[Lark]

We're not talking about lawful criminal justice. We're talking about how criminals are effectively thrown away to rot.

Socially a criminal's life really is chopped off most of the time, even well after they've served their legal sentence.

Last I checked its not difficult to avoid becoming a criminal, in fact it actually involves doing nothing at all, you have to actually proactively behave in a manner to warrant prosecution and this following due process, jury of your peers etc. etc.

You dont like the natural consequences that go with being a criminal then dont commit any fucking crimes. Sheesh.

What about the lives of victims? Huh? They count for much with yah?

 

[Lark]

Kindness should not depend on whether or not the recipient understands it as kindness. If it is true kindness, it doesn't matter.

Sure but are you doing a kindness if you're just validating some pretty ugly thinking and acting? Probably not, you could be indirectly responsible to the further victims of Mr or Mrs No-Good, not arguing against kindness but there's plenty of ways to channel that, better ways than appeasement, whether its intended as appeasement or not.

 

[Lark]

I think kindness and compassion goes hand in hand with justice. They aren't contradictory at any level.
Many understand kindness as something which makes justice invalid, in a wheel chair. That's not kindness, that's stupidity.

In some ways I agree with you, like I said before I'm not arguing for hanging and flogging or anything of that kind, although I do think that every effort to implement policies of compassion are perceived as something other than that by the increasingly hardened or just stupid elements who are committing the offences.

 

[sprinkles]

Last I checked its not difficult to avoid becoming a criminal, in fact it actually involves doing nothing at all, you have to actually proactively behave in a manner to warrant prosecution and this following due process, jury of your peers etc. etc.

You dont like the natural consequences that go with being a criminal then dont commit any fucking crimes. Sheesh.

What about the lives of victims? Huh? They count for much with yah?

Then make all crimes punishable by death.

Speeding? Death. Parking violation? Death. Littering? Graffiti? Loitering? Breaking curfew? Death. Misfile your taxes? DEATH! FUCKING LEARN TO ADD! Don't tell me you have an excuse to do these.

What's the fucking point? Just kill them all and get them out of the way if it's all their fault.

By your reasoning the justice system is currently stupid and entirely inefficient and creating its own problems by not simply eliminating everybody who breaks the law. Fuck human rights. Break the law, you're not human.

 

[LucyJr]

Unconditional kindness and compasssion is always a bonus...it is UNDESERVING. Thta's the whole idea of it, otherwise it wouldn't be unconditional.

 

[LucyJr]

In some ways I agree with you, like I said before I'm not arguing for hanging and flogging or anything of that kind, although I do think that every effort to implement policies of compassion are perceived as something other than that by the increasingly hardened or just stupid elements who are committing the offences.

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. For some of them, it is only a excuse for their wrong actions. They get compassion and understanding, and they think they deserve it. It only makes things worse.

 

[Lark]

Then make all crimes punishable by death.

Speeding? Death. Parking violation? Death. Littering? Graffiti? Loitering? Breaking curfew? Death. Misfile your taxes? DEATH! FUCKING LEARN TO ADD! Don't tell me you have an excuse to do these.

What's the fucking point? Just kill them all and get them out of the way if it's all their fault.

By your reasoning the justice system is currently stupid and entirely inefficient and creating its own problems by not simply eliminating everybody who breaks the law. Fuck human rights. Break the law, you're not human.

Well that escalated quickly.

If I see any threads in future and want to know my opinion on them will I just PM you or wait until you inform me what I think in the thread then?

It really doesnt help you make your point or help discussion generally to move as quick as you can to absurdity.

 

[Lark]

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. For some of them, it is only a excuse for their wrong actions. They get compassion and understanding, and they think they deserve it. It only makes things worse.

Yeah, there's that feeling of being entitled to it, and I never thought of that but I was thinking of the tendency I've encountered for someone who's seriously delinquent to perceive it was weakness.

 

[sprinkles]

Well that escalated quickly.

If I see any threads in future and want to know my opinion on them will I just PM you or wait until you inform me what I think in the thread then?

It really doesnt help you make your point or help discussion generally to move as quick as you can to absurdity.

It does help because it's absurd already.

Why bother to say that you're not calling for hanging or flogging in one breath then in the next say it is so easy to avoid committing crimes?

Why would you want to limit things in one regard but not another? It's ridiculous and inefficient. Why NOT just SHOOT people? It's their own fault, which you clearly stated, and it is quicker and cheaper! And it's their fault, if they don't want to die then don't commit the crime!

Why would you want anything less?? That's some weak ass shit! Shoot them!

Unless, you know, there's actually a fucking scale to things and not all cases are the same and you can't paint it all with one fucking stroke.

You know. Just maybe in case it's actually that.

 

[LucyJr]

Yeah, there's that feeling of being entitled to it, and I never thought of that but I was thinking of the tendency I've encountered for someone who's seriously delinquent to perceive it was weakness.

Yes, it could go that way too.

Either he thinks he spent some time in prison, and now he deserves some kindness and compassion, which is wrong (the message sent is not the message received), because the one who is doing the service thinks he is doing something unconditional, something beyond the borders of what is normaly understood as kindness. Hovewer, the criminal doesn't get the message, because he thinks he deserves the compassion.

Or, like you said, he could peceive it as a weakness. He might think and delud himself in his stupidity, perhaps even thinking that he gets kindness because he is being feared. In this case also, the message sent isn't the messgae received.

 

[LucyJr]

I think this is a great example of absurd kindness, or supposed kindness.
Justice goes hand in hand with kindness. If the criminal is being puted in a prison, that's justice, and that is kindness also. Kindness for his mental sanity.

 

[sprinkles]

Also I might add that if you think compassion somehow enables further crime as a rule, yet you still somehow think that there's some kind of limit to how harsh treatment of criminals should be, then you are a waffle.

Why put a limit on it if you're averse to compassion? It makes no sense and is like trying to have it both ways at once. You're just saying that it's more ok to commit lesser crimes because you'll get treated less severely!

 

[Lark]

It does help because it's absurd already.

Why bother to say that you're not calling for hanging or flogging in one breath then in the next say it is so easy to avoid committing crimes?

Why would you want to limit things in one regard but not another? It's ridiculous and inefficient. Why NOT just SHOOT people? It's their own fault, which you clearly stated, and it is quicker and cheaper! And it's their fault, if they don't want to die then don't commit the crime!

Why would you want anything less?? That's some weak ass shit! Shoot them!

Unless, you know, there's actually a fucking scale to things and not all cases are the same and you can't paint it all with one fucking stroke.

You know. Just maybe in case it's actually that.

Alright man, I guess its good to know this is your style for future reference.

Just in case you appreciate feedback I dont think you do discussion very well, its pretty confusing and I get the impression you're involved in some sort of contest I can only guess at.

BTW I'm 34 and never had any run in with the authorities, let alone any convictions, it was totally effortless.