Compassion for dying convicts

[say what]

No, you have a missunderstandig with regard to christian doctrines. Here is exactly what the Bible says everyone deserves:
"The payment for sin is death, but the gift that God freely gives is everlasting life found in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Firstly, the payment, which is death.
Secondly, the gift, which is UNDESERVING, that's why its called a gift, because nobody deserves it.

(I can't believe I am actually going to post this!)

Matthew 25
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

 

[Lark]

This is NOT a conversation about eliminating crime- it's about showing compassion to another human.

If you're interested in eliminating crime, you'd have to open up the idea of integrating a variety of other factors (which I've listed already) into the equation.

You're missing the point completely. Showing kindness to someone who has committed an crime is not going to (a) solve the issue of crime, (b) make them commit more crime, (c) disregard the injustice of the families/individuals who were hurt, and/or (d) insinuate what they did was okay and forgiven.

To say kindness does this, means you are misinterpreting what we're calling kindness.

I think what you're suggesting is no kindness. Its likely to be part of the problem when it comes to crime in the first place.

Although that just means we've reached an impasse in the discussion and disagree.

There's worse things to be than compassionate but I hope it doesnt lead you to grief.

 

[Lark]

(I can't believe I am actually going to post this!)

When Lucy posted along the evangelical lines before I was waiting on someone to post something from Matthew, it is the only passage in the bible which speaks about the final judgement and it does seem to contradict the all the interpretations of scriptures which lead up to and probably culminate in the evangelical perspective.

I like Matthew and James, I think its a shame that they didnt succeed in the battle for hegemony in the early Christian tradition, the same as I'm sorry that Erasmus didnt succeed in defeating Luther and the others whose thinking and agitation culminated in the reformation and then evangelical traditions.
[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] I hope you arent offended by any of that, thanks for your rep and the thumbs ups

 

[LucyJr]

(I can't believe I am actually going to post this!)

The passgae which you quoted doesn't change and does not contradict in any way or another the passage I posted from Romans.
The Bible does compell us to be kind and compassionate with every man, but sometimes the very essence of kindness is justice.
This truth is very well ilustrated in Dostoievski's "Crime and Punishment".

I want to rephrase my ideas so as to not be understood wrong.
I don't think it is wrong to show acts of kindness or compassion to criminals (in one way or another, we are all criminals, in the sense that we are inperfect).
What I do think is wrong and quite naive is to show and act in absurd supposed kindness, while at this time making only worse the state of the delinquent. If the guy doesn't even realise what he has done, how much harm did he, what he DESERVES, how can he fuly appreciate and be thankful to what he DOESN'T deserves?

Unconditional kindness is not just romanticising kindness...it MEANS something.

 

[LucyJr]

When Lucy posted along the evangelical lines before I was waiting on someone to post something from Matthew, it is the only passage in the bible which speaks about the final judgement and it does seem to contradict the all the interpretations of scriptures which lead up to and probably culminate in the evangelical perspective.

I like Matthew and James, I think its a shame that they didnt succeed in the battle for hegemony in the early Christian tradition, the same as I'm sorry that Erasmus didnt succeed in defeating Luther and the others whose thinking and agitation culminated in the reformation and then evangelical traditions.
[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] I hope you arent offended by any of that, thanks for your rep and the thumbs ups

No, of course I'm not offended.
But I don't understand what you're trying to say

 

[sprinkles]

I think what you're suggesting is no kindness. Its likely to be part of the problem when it comes to crime in the first place.

Although that just means we've reached an impasse in the discussion and disagree.

There's worse things to be than compassionate but I hope it doesnt lead you to grief.

Hey. I grew up in Detroit in the 80s when it was really the murder capital of the country and there were constant murders and gang violence, and the Chambers Brothers ran big business crack hotels like they were Microsoft selling Windows or something.

NOTHING I saw happened because of kindness. They didn't need your permission, they didn't need your compassion, they just came and took your shit or shot up your house because they thought it was another person's house by mistake, which happened with my grandmother's house.

Thinking that somebody taking advantage of kindness is the main consideration is a naive idea. That's the kind of thing that happens in gated communities and peaceful towns and shit where people throw up their hands and say "Oh, how frightful! Save me!" One person gets shot in 20 years and it's a fricking disaster.

Let me tell you that when somebody is truly set on being abusive and antisocial, they are going to do it and fuck your shit. Kindness perpetrates it? Maybe if you live in a bubble.

Not only do I disagree with you I think you are actually wrong and more than just the "This is my opinion" kind of wrong.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=4115]Lark[/MENTION]
Moreover a lot of those kids who got involved with the Chambers were taken from the south with the promise of wealth and they didn't know what they were getting into. Young teenagers - minors - lured into this and turned hard because they feared the Chambers leadership who were especially brutal. They weren't above making young mothers peddle their crack while holding their babies. People would feel scared and locked in and become hardened because who is going to want them after this? They're in with the Chambers. And they'd be beaten and/or shot if they didn't produce or the brothers felt they cheated them.

The Chambers Brothers were running a crack corporation and they had over 500 employees with corporate rules, even going as far as to issue ID cards to them. If you got in their way, they would KILL you.

 

[say what]

I think what you're suggesting is no kindness. Its likely to be part of the problem when it comes to crime in the first place.

Although that just means we've reached an impasse in the discussion and disagree.

There's worse things to be than compassionate but I hope it doesnt lead you to grief.

Hmm....what do you think I'm suggesting?

I am talking about compassion and kind acts - if it's simply giving someone dignity and respect on their dying bed; or allowing them peace and comfort during their last days. Kindness can be small. Yes there are large kind gestures...but they don't always have to be monumental. Simply not passing judgement on someone, can be kindness. This is at least how I see it.

 

[say what]

When Lucy posted along the evangelical lines before I was waiting on someone to post something from Matthew, it is the only passage in the bible which speaks about the final judgement and it does seem to contradict the all the interpretations of scriptures which lead up to and probably culminate in the evangelical perspective.

I like Matthew and James, I think its a shame that they didnt succeed in the battle for hegemony in the early Christian tradition, the same as I'm sorry that Erasmus didnt succeed in defeating Luther and the others whose thinking and agitation culminated in the reformation and then evangelical traditions.
[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] I hope you arent offended by any of that, thanks for your rep and the thumbs ups

I will be honest, I don't know a lot of passages from the Bible, but I did read this one recently as part of my research - and struck me as being something I connected with within Christianity. To me this seems what I think 'God' (any God or greater being) would ask of humanity- to show kindness regardless of who you see in front of you. It's a difficult thing to do, but speaks to the equality of all humans (and living things).

The passgae which you quoted doesn't change and does not contradict in any way or another the passage I posted from Romans.
The Bible does compell us to be kind and compassionate with every man, but sometimes the very essence of kindness is justice.
This truth is very well ilustrated in Dostoievski's "Crime and Punishment".

I want to rephrase my ideas so as to not be understood wrong.
I don't think it is wrong to show acts of kindness or compassion to criminals (in one way or another, we are all criminals, in the sense that we are inperfect).
What I do think is wrong and quite naive is to show and act in absurd supposed kindness, while at this time making only worse the state of the delinquent. If the guy doesn't even realise what he has done, how much harm did he, what he DESERVES, how can he fuly appreciate and be thankful to what he DOESN'T deserves?

Unconditional kindness is not just romanticising kindness...it MEANS something.

It's not about being thanked or appreciated. To want this, takes away the true kindness in an act.

Another way to look at it, is to consider cases in healthcare that require medical restraint. Often, at the time of restraint, the patient may not agree or like it (in fact, they often resist and are angered by it); however, in a lot of cases, this is in the best interest for the patient, as they may harm themselves (especially if they have an illness such as alzheimers). So even though the person is unable to see the good in it, it might be an exceptionally kind act (kindness in the context of providing care).

Taking that example, and looking at the perspective of criminals- some people might not be in the mental state or capacity to know their actions are wrong; OR their actions might have been influenced or pushed due to external factors. To me, these people still deserve kindness. In fact, I think being human is to both give and receive kindness.

 

[say what]

Hey. I grew up in Detroit in the 80s when it was really the murder capital of the country and there were constant murders and gang violence, and the Chambers Brothers ran big business crack hotels like they were Microsoft selling Windows or something.

NOTHING I saw happened because of kindness. They didn't need your permission, they didn't need your compassion, they just came and took your shit or shot up your house because they thought it was another person's house by mistake, which happened with my grandmother's house.

Thinking that somebody taking advantage of kindness is the main consideration is a naive idea. That's the kind of thing that happens in gated communities and peaceful towns and shit where people throw up their hands and say "Oh, how frightful! Save me!" One person gets shot in 20 years and it's a fricking disaster.

Let me tell you that when somebody is truly set on being abusive and antisocial, they are going to do it and fuck your shit. Kindness perpetrates it? Maybe if you live in a bubble.

Not only do I disagree with you I think you are actually wrong and more than just the "This is my opinion" kind of wrong.

I agree. For the people who are truly ill and unable to understand emotionality and humanity, kindness won't do anything for them.

I agree with sprinkles that I don't think there is anything bad that could come out of kindness. (or at least I think that's what you're saying! )


I guess I would say that I might change my mind if I'm presented with actual examples of kindness having a negative impact....but.....I don't think they would ever outweigh the ones that had positive impacts.

 

[sprinkles]

I agree. For the people who are truly ill and unable to understand emotionality and humanity, kindness won't do anything for them.

I agree with sprinkles that I don't think there is anything bad that could come out of kindness. (or at least I think that's what you're saying! )


I guess I would say that I might change my mind if I'm presented with actual examples of kindness having a negative impact....but.....I don't think they would ever outweigh the ones that had positive impacts.

Well I have seen instances where people abuse kindness. But I don't think that has much of an impact on the whole.

When somebody spends 20 years in prison, I don't think that being at least civil to them when they get out is going to make them any worse. I'm not saying you should necessarily trust them to raise your babies and all that, but there's no need to be cruel to them.

I also don't think that being kind after somebody has had their punishment is going to promote more crime, because shit, come on. The whole prison thing? You think it's going to encourage people to go through that just because you let a convict surf your couch? I think absolutely not.

 

[LucyJr]

It's not about being thanked or appreciated. To want this, takes away the true kindness in an act.

And I perfectly agree with you. But still, by my posts I didn't implied anythythink to contradict the true nature of kindness.
All what I said is that is a issue of naivety, not about offering true kindness. Some people are very naive, but good intentioned. By their naivety, they sometimes do more harm than good.

 

[say what]

And I perfectly agree with you. But still, by my posts I didn't implied anythythink to contradict the true nature of kindness.
All what I said is that is a issue of naivety, not about offering true kindness. Some people are very naive, but good intentioned. By their naivety, they sometimes do more harm than good.

I would love it if you provided actual examples of this!



On a side note, here is some interesting literature that might help provide some background on my perspective.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/files/attachments/3343/ess-new-approach-violent-crime-avb.pdf

http://ftp.columbia.edu/cu/e3b/SapientIssueOne.pdf#page=12

http://animalsandsociety.com/assets/library/870_teachingkindness.pdf

https://curriculum.leadinglearning.org.uk/phil/Shared%20Documents/A%20Level%20Dialogues%20Issues/11%20Miracle%20problems.pdf {{The Ethics of Punishing Criminals}}

 

[LucyJr]

I would love it if you provided actual examples of this!

Firstly, I want to say this is just my opinion of course
One very general supposed situation is when a girl with a heart meets a violator in need...I hope you get the idea.
Kindness is good, but it must be coupled with justice and prudence. Also kindness is not just simple good acts, its concern for the person, is a careful attitude, which means being wise, not stupid. Kindness whithout justice is not kindness at all.
It is sad that many people think so. They romanticise everything with naivety.
People who have not a single idea of the meaning of moral actions sudenly begin to romanticise moral actions, by being "too much" kind, or overly kind...that's not true kindness, it is a hidden message there.

On a side note, here is some interesting literature that might help provide some background on my perspective.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/files...-crime-avb.pdf

http://ftp.columbia.edu/cu/e3b/Sapie...ne.pdf#page=12

http://animalsandsociety.com/assets/...ngkindness.pdf

https://curriculum.leadinglearning.o...20problems.pdf {{The Ethics of Punishing Criminals}}

Thanks. I will definately look and read all this, I'm curious how things are seen from the "standard/official" perspective

 

[Barnabas]

Im curious. When someone says "criminal" what is the first thing that pops to mind. Do you think of someone that is "wrong", that cant integrate with society...etc?

A criminal can be someone who broke a law that if you knew about the law, you may not agree with either. Granted there are people that shouldn't be on the streets.

κακοῦργος (kak-oor'-gos), biblical Greek for criminal, it's the term used for the men hung next to Jesus............ oh that's not......... I'm sorry I'll show myself out.

 

[Lark]

No, of course I'm not offended.
But I don't understand what you're trying to say

I was laughing at Matthew coming up because I thought it would have done already, the verses in Matthew about the actual judgement do seem to say something very different to that of the message about "Christ died for you" etc. which is important in evangelism, although evangelism is generally biblical literalist, so it would appear to be an insoluable contradiction.

I see all those things as arising from the reformation and its priorities or the ways in which it was challenging the RCC at that time.

 

[digitalbum]

This will no doubt be controversial for many, but in my opinion is the true meaning of compassion and kindness:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/04/06/chaplain_dan_haleys_house_of_forgiveness.html

Boy you are like, obsessed with Kindness, haha.

Maybe it's an INFJ thing.

I mean, look at this dying guy's eyes, he's remorseful. His soul is plain to see to me.

His entire family has shunned him, and I'm not saying I blame them. It takes a person of great compassion to show kindness like this. But this seems to me a criminal that's paid his dues. Hard not to feel empathy for him, even though this little documentary is clearly one sided.

I had another epiphany. I think the ENTP INFJ connection can be explained by the ENTP's abhorrence of massive egos, which INFJs, in my experience, don't really have. Maybe that's why they get along.

Back on point, I do think sex offenders should be shot on site. Or at least castrated. Ha, oops! Did I say that out loud? True, they are probably victims themselves, but Jesus Christ, you may not be able to control your impulses and it may be argued it's not even your fault, but you sure as HELL are responsible for the consequences. That's a psychological illness that is so repugnant and evil, what good could that person possibly serve considering the utter destruction that kind of behaviour wreaks? (and I'm talking about the ones that ACT on it. I'm guessing there's people that were abused that have those impulses, but also have a conscious, and DON'T act. They work through it). Rabid dogs should be put down, IMO.

I don't see why ALL humans, no matter how heinous their crime, should receive special compassion if they have no remorse. They're animals, no different than others, and in fact, are way WAY worse in terms of the horrors they can commit. Mao Zedong alone, is responsible for killing 60 million people (Hitler was in the minor leagues compared to this guy). I don't know if some people in here think that ALL people deserve kindness(seems like some think so), but if so, that proposition has to hold up to the most extreme examples.

 

[LucyJr]

I had another epiphany. I think the ENTP INFJ connection can be explained by the ENTP's abhorrence of massive egos, which INFJs, in my experience, don't really have. Maybe that's why they get along.

This is so funny. Just yesterday I was talking with my ENTP friend, and I asked him why he has such a pleasure in trolling guys with big egos. He said to me he doesn't know, he just have this desire to annoy them in any possible ways...

 

[digitalbum]

This is so funny. Just yesterday I was talking with my ENTP friend, and I asked him why he has such a pleasure in trolling guys with big egos. He said to me he doesn't know, he just have this desire to annoy them in any possible ways...

Well,I've known for some time now that I can't stand big egos, but it wasn't until recently that I realized INFJs seem to be the most humble, and I mean that in the best possible way.

There's a misconception about the mature ENTP that he is the most arrogant and egotistical, which would make all this ironic, if true. The reality is that the ENTP comes off as arrogant because he is so over himself that he will mock his own ego, spoof it, pretend cocky, or be arrogant in an ironic way (and the more people say he/she is arrogant, the more he/she will play it up. They're little game players, btw). I don't think there's a more perceptive type when it comes to recognizing arrogance. Not sure why yet, I'm kinda lazy, haha. Maybe I'll have an edit later.

 

[LucyJr]

I was laughing at Matthew coming up because I thought it would have done already, the verses in Matthew about the actual judgement do seem to say something very different to that of the message about "Christ died for you" etc. which is important in evangelism, although evangelism is generally biblical literalist, so it would appear to be an insoluable contradiction.

I see all those things as arising from the reformation and its priorities or the ways in which it was challenging the RCC at that time.

"Appear" is the right word. There is no contradiction there.