Could Jesus have sinned?

[say what]

As I said before, if someone is on the fence about something like "Is Christ sinless or not?", then that person is lost, and under the wrath and condemnation of God, and must come to a knowledge of Christ to be saved.

And not only is that person lost, but he should not be preaching to congregations, as Barnabas claims that he does.

That's the very definition of a "false prophet."

Furthermore, Barnabas thinks God loves everyone, and tells people God loves everyone, which completely denies the need of salvation in the first place.

That is extremely dangerous to people's souls. That gives them a false hope, and sends them to Hell.

That is why it needs to be pointed out. Whether or not people will listen is a whole other story.

may i ask what your intentions are here, on this forum?

 

[just me]

I'd tend to agree it is paradoxical. It can't be only that Jesus can sin but didn't because hypothetically if any human managed to pull off having temptation but not actually sinning, that would put them on par with Jesus.

So I feel it would have to be a level above merely not sinning. Even if it means a paradox.

Paul said he could keep all the law, except thou shalt not lust. By this spiritual part of the law, he could not be without sin. The commandment slew him. This clearly and without doubt explains the need for salvation. It is impossible for a man born under and into sin to not lust, though he may be able to keep all other commandments(Old Testament). Impossible. Poor understanding.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, so it was impossible for Him to sin.

 

[SovereignGrace]

may i ask what your intentions are here, on this forum?

I was lurking for a while, then I joined this forum to participate in a particular religion thread.

Can't remember which one it was at the moment.

I didn't intend to argue so much. I didn't expect ignorant people to try to argue about things they know nothing about.

But if people are going to blaspheme God and spread false doctrine all around, I see no reason not to correct them. It just seems right.

So there you have it.

 

[Barnabas]

Paul said he could keep all the law, except thou shalt not lust. By this spiritual part of the law, he could not be without sin. The commandment slew him. This clearly and without doubt explains the need for salvation. It is impossible for a man born under and into sin to not lust, though he may be able to keep all other commandments(Old Testament). Impossible. Poor understanding.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, so it was impossible for Him to sin.

I'd like to see the verse where Paul says that, I'm having trouble digging it up.

As I said before,if someone is on the fence about something like "Is Christ sinless or not?", then that person is lost, and under the wrath and condemnation of God, and must come to a knowledge of Christ to be saved.

And not only is that person lost, but he should not be preaching to congregations, as Barnabas claims that he does.

That's the very definition of a "false prophet."

Furthermore, Barnabas thinks God loves everyone, and tells people God loves everyone, which completely denies the need of salvation in the first place.

That is extremely dangerous to people's souls. That gives them a false hope, and sends them to Hell.

That is why it needs to be pointed out. Whether or not people will listen is a whole other story.

Slow down cowpoke, I don't remember saying Jesus sinned. And sense you seem to be so found of quoting me in this thread so here

Simple question, could Jesus have sinned?


note I'm not asking if he sinned only if he had the capacity to sin.

I do not believe that Jesus ever sinned, he was the perfect sacrifice without blemish for the sins of mankind, it's a central concept to the Christian faith, I highly doubt bible college would have allowed me to leave without me knowing that.

also, I never denied the need for salvation.

Soo..... now that were done putting words in other peoples mouths.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'd like to see the verse where Paul says that, I'm having trouble digging it up.




Slow down cowpoke, I don't remember saying Jesus sinned. And sense you seem to be so found of quoting me in this thread so here



I do not believe that Jesus ever sinned, he was the perfect sacrifice without blemish for the sins of mankind, it's a central concept to the Christian faith, I highly doubt bible college would have allowed me to leave without me knowing that.

also, I never denied the need for salvation.

Soo..... now that were done putting words in other peoples mouths.

You said you were on the fence about whether or not he is capable of sinning.

I've already quoted it twice in this thread. And you know you said it, so I don't see why you're lying.

Here it is again:

I'm interested in the opinions of the members of the forum, I come here to listen and converse because find these people to be interesting and or insightful. It's an interesting question that came out of my friends theology class that had moderately split answers, most were on board with him not being able to sin few my friend included were of the opinion that he could have sinned but did not.

I'm still on the fence, and while I don't like to make theological decisions based of the answers of the forum, It helps me to talk it through with people of opposing opinions.

And yes, you said that God loves everybody, so what is the need for salvation then?

Who in their right mind would seek salvation from God LOVING them?

If you don't warn people that they're under the wrath of God, they will see no NEED to repent or seek salvation. Just ASK them.

 

[Barnabas]

You said you were on the fence about whether or not he is capable of sinning.

I've already quoted it twice in this thread. And you know you said it, so I don't see why you're lying.

Here it is again:



And yes, you said that God loves everybody, so what is the need for salvation then?

Who in their right mind would seek salvation from God LOVING them?

If you don't warn people that they're under the wrath of God, they will see no NEED to repent or seek salvation. Just ASK them.

How can I put this.... Jesus can have the ability to sin, and still not sin.... oh wait this is stemming from your total depravity isn't it. You don't subscribe to the notion of sinful acts but instead think of everyone as inherently sinful. Jesus can't possibly even have the possibility to sin if doesn't have a sinful nature, and if he does have the possibility to sin then he obviously already a part of the fallen creation.

got it, counter point and something that every one here already knows, I don't consider total depravity and the sinful nature to truthful. Instead I means that all of humanity is capable of sin and that sin in this case is a conscious act that disobeys God's commands.

Also, I never said God doesn't have wrath(wrath is such a strong word, then again he's a strong God) against everyone, It's fundamental to God's character to hate sin, to hate injustice. Love and mercy are also fundamental to God's character. God has to punish sin, but God loves his creation, so he has to find a way to sate both his nature of Justice and his nature of love. He does this by offering Christ(both God and man) in our place for his justice as an act of mercy and love, anybody who accepts this act is no longer under God's wrath.

I'm not lying see, simple. I'm not asking any question cause that'll lead to a conversation, just wanting to point out I'm not a liar.... well I'm not lying right now.


____________________________________________________________


Ok let's do some clarification to go along with this question, I'm just going to piggy back it along with this response cause I don't want to double post.

For the Augustinian, or the Calvanist or anyone else who believes in Original Sin, this question is a no brainer. it's an obvious no for reason I stated earlier, any who holds these beliefs holds that Jesus didn't have a sinful nature because he was perfect which means he couldn't have committed sinful acts.

For the rest of us it's question of Jesus' humanity, because if we believe that humans are inherently created with free will and the ability to choose. If Jesus was a real human being then he would have had to have had the ability to choose like we do, which means he had the ability to sin, but in fact did not. It's kind of important for other things as well like if Jesus couldn't sin the how could he be tempted, if he doesn't have the ability to choose then he can't have his opinion manipulated which is what temptation is.


For a lot of people the notion of Jesus who is God, being able to sin rubs against God's character, God hates sin, therefore Jesus hates sin.

For others it's a matter of God being the person who creates the rules, and put simply, if he tells you to do it's not breaking the rules. If he does it it's not breaking the rules.


I think it's an interesting thing to think about and any time put to understanding God better is time well spent.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How can I put this.... Jesus can have the ability to sin, and still not sin.... oh wait this is stemming from your total depravity isn't it.

It's not MY "Total Depravity." It's the BIBLICAL DOCTRINE of Total Depravity.

And I know that you're not that interested in Biblical doctrine, so I won't press that point right now.

You don't subscribe to the notion of sinful acts but instead think of everyone as inherently sinful. Jesus can't possibly even have the possibility to sin if doesn't have a sinful nature, and if he does have the possibility to sin then he obviously already a part of the fallen creation.

Yes, that's absolutely correct.

got it, counter point and something that every one here already knows, I don't consider total depravity and the sinful nature to truthful.

Because you aren't interested in Biblical doctrine.

Instead I means that all of humanity is capable of sin and that sin in this case is a conscious act that disobeys God's commands.

Then what did you repent from? Just some sinful acts?

If you don't repent of being an all-out sinner, you have not repented at all, and you're lost.

Also, I never said God doesn't have wrath(wrath is such a strong word, then again he's a strong God) against everyone, It's fundamental to God's character to hate sin, to hate injustice.

So, then shouldn't you warn people that they are under God's wrath, because they are sinners?

Or do you not love people enough to warn them?

Love and mercy are also fundamental to God's character. God has to punish sin, but God loves his creation, so he has to find a way to sate both his nature of Justice and his nature of love. He does this by offering Christ(both God and man) in our place for his justice as an act of mercy and love, anybody who accepts this act is no longer under God's wrath.

OK, so you think God's will is subordinate to the will of the sinner?

You think salvation ultimately depends on the sinner?

If that's the case, then the SINNER is GOD, and GOD should be worshipping the SINNER.

I'm not lying see, simple. I'm not asking any question cause that'll lead to a conversation, just wanting to point out I'm not a liar.... well I'm not lying right now.

You said you do believe that sinners are under God's wrath, yet you lie by OMISSION when you do not warn them.

And you lie when you say God LOVES them, while at the same time, they are under his wrath.

And you lied about being on the fence until I quoted you saying you were on the fence. Now, you're trying to lie your way out of it.

Lying and equivocating is the hallmark of all false prophets.
____________________________________________________________

Ok let's do some clarification to go along with this question, I'm just going to piggy back it along with this response cause I don't want to double post.

For the Augustinian, or the Calvanist or anyone else who believes in Original Sin, this question is a no brainer. it's an obvious no for reason I stated earlier, any who holds these beliefs holds that Jesus didn't have a sinful nature because he was perfect which means he couldn't have committed sinful acts.

That's correct.

For the rest of us it's question of Jesus' humanity, because if we believe that humans are inherently created with free will and the ability to choose. If Jesus was a real human being then he would have had to have had the ability to choose like we do, which means he had the ability to sin, but in fact did not. It's kind of important for other things as well like if Jesus couldn't sin the how could he be tempted, if he doesn't have the ability to choose then he can't have his opinion manipulated which is what temptation is.

Yes, it's clear that you worship the will of Man, and elevate it above the will of God. I got that.

And you're wrong about temptation in this case. It just means to be TESTED. It doesn't imply any hint of desire to sin on Christ's part.

Again, if Christ had even a hint of a desire to sin, he would not be sinless.

His sinless NATURE is incapable of sin.

And it's blasphemous to even hint that the Son of God has such desires. If he DID, he would NOT be GOD. He'd be a sinner.

And that would disqualify him from being able to atone for sins, and from rising from the dead, justified.

You are an UTTER HERETIC if you continue suggesting that Christ could be capable of sin. End of story.

For a lot of people the notion of Jesus who is God, being able to sin rubs against God's character, God hates sin, therefore Jesus hates sin.

That's the only thing that makes sense. It's absurd not to believe that.

For others it's a matter of God being the person who creates the rules, and put simply, if he tells you to do it's not breaking the rules. If he does it it's not breaking the rules.

That makes no sense.

I think it's an interesting thing to think about and any time put to understanding God better is time well spent.

That's your whole problem. You THINK about God, rather than SUMBIT to his WORD.

You lean on your own understanding.

And that's why you arrive at such erroneous conclusions.

Proverbs 14:12 :

There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION] You ask for discussion then show you're not capable of actually having one.

It's for the best that I don't own a webcam or mic. I'd be able to read you even more deeply and your pretty face would not protect you.

 

[Barnabas]

It's not MY "Total Depravity." It's the BIBLICAL DOCTRINE of Total Depravity.

And I know that you're not that interested in Biblical doctrine, so I won't press that point right now.




Yes, that's absolutely correct.



Because you aren't interested in Biblical doctrine.




Then what did you repent from? Just some sinful acts?

If you don't repent of being an all-out sinner, you have not repented at all, and you're lost.



So, then shouldn't you warn people that they are under God's wrath, because they are sinners?

Or do you not love people enough to warn them?



OK, so you think God's will is subordinate to the will of the sinner?

You think salvation ultimately depends on the sinner?

If that's the case, then the SINNER is GOD, and GOD should be worshipping the SINNER.



You said you do believe that sinners are under God's wrath, yet you lie by OMISSION when you do not warn them.

And you lie when you say God LOVES them, while at the same time, they are under his wrath.

And you lied about being on the fence until I quoted you saying you were on the fence. Now, you're trying to lie your way out of it.

Lying and equivocating is the hallmark of all false prophets.
____________________________________________________________




That's correct.



Yes, it's clear that you worship the will of Man, and elevate it above the will of God. I got that.

And you're wrong about temptation in this case. It just means to be TESTED. It doesn't imply any hint of desire to sin on Christ's part.

Again, if Christ had even a hint of a desire to sin, he would not be sinless.

His sinless NATURE is incapable of sin.

And it's blasphemous to even hint that the Son of God has such desires. If he DID, he would NOT be GOD. He'd be a sinner.

And that would disqualify him from being able to atone for sins, and from rising from the dead, justified.

You are an UTTER HERETIC if you continue suggesting that Christ could be capable of sin. End of story.




That's the only thing that makes sense. It's absurd not to believe that.



That makes no sense.



That's your whole problem. You THINK about God, rather than SUMBIT to his WORD.

You lean on your own understanding.

And that's why you arrive at such erroneous conclusions.

Proverbs 14:12 :

 

[Barnabas]

Could Jesus have sinned? Yes, he could have and still can.

This poses quite a difficult question when you think about it in that way. I mean, when you think about it as a trinitarian, when you believe that the Father , the Son and the holy spirit are three persons but at the same time they are one person. If you can conceive such an idea then the answer is "yes" and "no" and you should be fine with it.

However, if you carefully read the Bible, you'd realize that it is not so easy to sustain that particular belief. The Bible teaches that there is only one God, Jehovah, the father of Jesus. Jesus believed this and even quoted from the Hebrew scriptures supporting this fact.

Deuteronomy 6: 4, 5: “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength."
Isaiah 42: 8: "I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, nor my praise to graven images."
Matthew 4: 10: "Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Jesus was Jehovah's first creation. Colossians 1: 15 says that he is "the firstborn of all creation". And regarding his knowledge and wisdom he said "“What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality." (John 7: 17), Plus, Jesus was a man of faith and a man who prayed... Who did he pray to?... Jesus was resurrected... so who resurrected him?

You can go on to a long theological debate trying to prove that God is the Son and the Father at the same time, and he was flesh and spirit at the same time... But, in my opinion that makes things very difficult to understand. If you believe that Jehovah and Jesus are not the same person (or of the same substance, or follow that idea somehow) as the Bible teaches, then it is quite simple:

Since Jesus is not the Creator (and the lawmaker) but a being inferior to God, he could have sinned and still can. In my opinion, even Jehovah could sin but in His case it wouldn't be considered a sin because... Who could judge Jehovah? Who could accuse him of bending his own rules? (Isaiah 40: 12-14)... Fortunately, when you truly know God, you know that he doesn't act wickedly... he could if he wanted to, but because of the person He is you know He won't. If you read and study the Bible you'll realize what a wise man called Elihu once said:

"For a certainty, God does not act wickedly;
The Almighty does not pervert justice"
-Job 34: 12

I completely skipped over your post in all the other non-sense going on in this thread, I'm sorry about that. So your a non-trinitartian, are you a Jehovah's witness? we don't get many of them on this forum?

 

[j654dgj7]

I was lurking for a while, then I joined this forum to participate in a particular religion thread.

Can't remember which one it was at the moment.

I didn't intend to argue so much. I didn't expect ignorant people to try to argue about things they know nothing about.

But if people are going to blaspheme God and spread false doctrine all around, I see no reason not to correct them. It just seems right.

So there you have it.

You came to bring the wrath of God to the forum, not to have discussions or debates.

 

[muir]

Whether jesus existed on this earthly plane in bodily form and if he did whether or not he sinned is entirely irrelevant because what matters is YOUR experience not the experience of an avatar 2000 years ago

The ONLY thing that matters is: what are YOU doing?

The teachings of jesus is just one aspect of creation...one aspect of this entire learning experience that is reality. Take what you need from it and keep going but don't get tied down to one thing

 

[the]

I completely skipped over your post in all the other non-sense going on in this thread, I'm sorry about that. So your a non-trinitartian, are you a Jehovah's witness? we don't get many of them on this forum?

I think hes actually pentacostal with a hint of Way of the Master.

 

[just me]

Barnabas, it's in Romans. Almost the entire book of Romans touches on this. Try chapter 7, followed with chapter 8. I use KJV.

 

[muir]

Barnabas, it's in Romans. Almost the entire book of Romans touches on this. Try chapter 7, followed with chapter 8. I use KJV.

Lawyers often look at the letter of the law and follow it; it's their guidelines, their bible. They hunt it out of esoteric books, they interprete it from latin, they pin down what the law says and then they make their case along the letter of the law

Often they do this to get murders, theives and rapists off from being sentenced and back into the community without any charge so that they can carry on as before

They can recite the law to the letter: paragraph A of Section 3 of such and such Act says that under such circumstances bla bla bla but they never stop to think whether that code resonates with their inner sense of what is the right way in this life

Does the law or the bible always provide the right way or is it a way for people to displace responsibility so that they don't need to engage in inner searching and wisdom?

Surely they need to be seen within a much wider context rather than used as some sort of manual with different codes and directives that must be followed to the letter?

What happened to exercising our own judgement....to free will? And if those are important things then why don't people look at how those things can be developed and at what barriers there are to us doing that as a society?

 

[just me]

True, muir. That is why the Bible says the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life and peace. edit

The letter of the law is a bunch of do's and don't's. Jesus told us all the law and all the prophets were summed up in two things: love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself(the Spirit of the law).

edit again. The spirit of the law is often avoided to one's own vision of circumstance. I love the law in the OT. I, like Paul, could be holy if it were not for lust or coveting. That law in your mind showed it was impossible without something else: God knows I tried many years ago. I'm not Paul, but I saw another law in my members warring against my mind, too. A person can destroy himself with that one law if he doesn't seek help with it.

The beauty of the law and the new covenant was when they were stoning the woman and Jesus told the church leaders for the one of them without sin to cast the first stone.

 

[muir]

True, muir. That is why the Bible says the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life and peace. edit

The letter of the law is a bunch of do's and don't's. Jesus told us all the law and all the prophets were summed up in two things: love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself(the Spirit of the law).

Loving God and loving your neighbour is the same thing

 

[just me]

Loving God and loving your neighbour is the same thing

I'll try to respond to your last editing before this post later. What you have said here can be looked at like a skimmer or like the depths of the ocean. It could possibly mislead some that are not anchored in their beliefs. I'll say that it can be like unto the same thing under certain circumstances; i.e. if God is in the heart of man, it could be loving the same. I look at God as an individual or Trinity. Part of that Trinity is the Holy Spirit that was sent to us(The Helper).I praise and worship God. I cannot love everyone and consider that verbatim the same thing.

 

[muir]

I'll try to respond to your last editing before this post later. What you have said here can be looked at like a skimmer or like the depths of the ocean. It could possibly mislead some that are not anchored in their beliefs. I'll say that it can be like unto the same thing under certain circumstances; i.e. if God is in the heart of man, it could be loving the same. I look at God as an individual or Trinity. Part of that Trinity is the Holy Spirit that was sent to us(The Helper).I praise and worship God. I cannot love everyone and consider that verbatim the same thing.

I see everyone and everything as God

If there is disharmony then we are not in resonance with God

So we know by how we are feeling within as a society if we are living in resonance

Those that knowingly destroy lives and the environment are knowingly causing dissonance and we know them by their fruit

 

[muir]

What complicates things is that the wolves that cause the dissonance come often dressed in sheeps clothing

An interesting example in modern popular culture would be the figure of 'batman'. This will become even more pertinant as a new series called 'gotham' beginning soon that will sweep many people into the batman franchise

batman on the surface is a very seductive figure. He is mysterious, strong, stands up for himself and has lots of cool gadgets. However are things as simple as they appear on the surface?

Batman is often called 'the dark knight' or the 'caped crusader' which conjure up strong images within the mind of a person raised in christian culture of a chivalrous defender fighting to protect something holy and sacred

Batman is always fighting criminals often beating them up and threatening them to dissuade them from a life of crime; this is all carried out in retribution for the murder of his own parents by a psychopathic criminal

The almost superpowered, demi-god Batman is of course the alter ego of the man Bruce Wayne who must play the martyr, sacrificing his own safety and even personal life to be the messiah leading people from out of the shadow of lawlessness that threatens to engulf them at any moment

However Bruce Wayne is a multi-billionaire. We are asked to believe by Hollywood that the best course of action for a multi-billionaire is to use his wealth to build weapons of war which he can then unleash on the criminal underclass of gotham city, whilst of course himself operating outwith and above the law and completely subverting the justice system, acting as he does as unelected judge, jury and executioner dishing out unilateral vigilante justice

However a far more productive use of Bruce's wealth would be to share it with the poor of Gotham and to improve education standards, health and also boost job opportunities and self reliance because a population that has an income over a certain amount has no need to turn to a life of crime

Bruce's wealth could be used to boost the quality of life for millions, thereby alleviating poverty and all the social ills that are a product of poverty such as crime and drug dependancy.

This approach however would fly in the face of the current religion in the US which is the religion of the strong...and by the 'strong' i really mean the most ruthless. The most ruthless people are rewarded and never penalised by the law for example corporate crimes going unpunished or recieving light fines whilst regular people are penalised for minor offenses.

Batman is the messiah of the super rich protecting them from the desperate who might seek redress for the inequalities of society through crime whilst hiding from people the best option, which would be for the wealthy to share their wealth to create a fairer, safer, more stable, equal and healthy society

While people are focussing on an icon from 2000 years ago they are not noticing how new icons are being created to tap into their psyche on subconscious levels to affect the way they think and feel about the world

Not only does batman not forgive, but he upholds inequality and punishes those that fall through the net of society for stealing a wallet or a watch when the biggest criminals are the corporate criminals that destroy entire communities and rainforests

Who are these people in Hollywood pushing these perceptual distortions onto the public and making them love their own enslavers? Perhaps they are the same people behind the distortions of the teachings of jesus