Could Jesus have sinned?

[magister343]

If Jesus was unable to sin because he did not have the sin nature, then how was it possible for Adam to sin? Is he not also supposed to be without a sin nature before his fall?

It rather undermines Paul's comparison of The First Adam with The Second Adam if Jesus never had any capacity to sin as Adam had, but strengthens it if he had equal capacity yet never sinned.


The doctrine that God would not force salvation on those who choose to reject this grace does not make God a sinner. Doing otherwise would be tantamount to rape.

It is the Calvinist doctrine of predestination that makes God a sinner, which makes him responsible for ever sin that any man has ever committed and which damns the majority of humanity to eternal torment without ever giving them any opportunity to repent.

The Calvinist conception of God is not one worthy of any man's respect, much less worship.

Fortunately, such an insane doctrine has very little to do with the holy scripture or how they have been interpreted for most of the history of the church. Calvinism is utterly at variance with the teachings of the earliest church fathers, who endorsed libertarian free will. Foreshadowings of Calvin first appear with certain errors that Augustine made due to relying entirely on Latin translations of the scripture. This "doctor of the church" never tried to learn any Hebrew and gave up on Greek after badly flunking his introductory course. Some of his beliefs may also have been tainted by the many years he spent as a Manichean.

 

[Elis]

[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]
I haven't read through all the pages here, but to me you sound like a fanatic. By that I don't mean to imply that you are wrong by any mean, just that you are fanatically convinced that you are right. The problem, as I see it, is that you're pushing your believes on others. You're trying to save people from an ill fate, but as good as the intention might be you can't save everyone. People have different believes, and you'll have to tolerate that.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I was lurking for a while, then I joined this forum to participate in a particular religion thread.

Can't remember which one it was at the moment.

I didn't intend to argue so much. I didn't expect ignorant people to try to argue about things they know nothing about.

But if people are going to blaspheme God and spread false doctrine all around, I see no reason not to correct them. It just seems right.

So there you have it.

Id be interested to see your thoughts onthings that dont pertain to religion. However its clear to me that regarding religion you are one of the most lost.

In this I hope to get your perceptions of other topics. At least for now.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What complicates things is that the wolves that cause the dissonance come often dressed in sheeps clothing

The wolves in sheep's clothing are those like Barnabas, who don't warn people that they are under the wrath of God.

People like Joel Osteen, etc. who tell people that God LOVES them, even though the truth is God's holy Law condemns them.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, bore the wrath and condemnation for all that the Father gave him, and whoever comes to him, by faith, demonstrates that he is one for whom Christ died.

All who do not believe the Son are condemned. Without the Savior, they must bear God's wrath for their sin.

And since the debt can never be paid, it's for eternity.


Wolves in sheep's clothing tell people what they WANT to hear instead of what they NEED to hear. THAT is the very definition a wolf in sheep's clothing.

A true servant of Christ warns people that OUTSIDE of faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, you are under the wrath and condemnation of God. And that you must repent and believe on Jesus Christ, as he is revealed in the Scriptures.

If you REMAIN in your natural state, without faith in Christ, you will be consigned to ETERNAL DAMNATION.

And you can't save yourself, you need CHRIST.

GOD HIMSELF must save you, and he does it under the preaching of the Gospel of Christ.

God must CAUSE you to REPENT of the fact that you are NOTHING BUT SIN, and that GOD is RIGHTEOUS to condemn you to Hell.

And God must CAUSE you to BELIEVE on his Son, Jesus Christ.


If God does not CAUSE you to do these things, you will NEVER do them. You and I are not CAPABLE of doing them apart from being "born again" by the Spirit.

And though God must CAUSE you to do these things if you are to be saved, God is NOT in ANY WAY OBLIGATED to SAVE you.

He saves whom he will, and let's others have their way and go to Hell.

May God CAUSE you to seek his mercy now, for Christ's sake.

Read JOHN 6:35-40 :

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[just me]

Jesus was here. Who in their right mind would say the things He said if they were not true? The Jews call him a great teacher. Imagine that: a great teacher with respect that they did not believe what He was teaching. Jesus is my life and this thread about if He could sin or not. I really don't think this the time nor the place to disregard who He is.

I never looked at Batman as a Christian warrior. Even the many tales of the Hobbit by Tolkien have good vs evil. Gandalf rode a white horse and had power over the demons. This is writers writing stories and scripts, not the media teaching Christianity. The fact Batman helps the police makes him different from the psychopath you paint. Superman was from another world. Guess he was white. So what. People want equality, yet I am now considered white to include Hispanics and Latinos; yet, there are still blacks. In Christ, there is no difference. In society, they still seek to be different in many circles. What has this to do with could Jesus sin?

Wow. Look at all the posts here. Sorry, but I meant that to be speaking with [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]. I'll have to read these after work.

 

[Barnabas]

Barnabas, it's in Romans. Almost the entire book of Romans touches on this. Try chapter 7, followed with chapter 8. I use KJV.

Can you get the actual verses, I'm still having trouble finding it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]
I haven't read through all the pages here, but to me you sound like a fanatic. By that I don't mean to imply that you are wrong by any mean, just that you are fanatically convinced that you are right. The problem, as I see it, is that you're pushing your believes on others. You're trying to save people from an ill fate, but as good as the intention might be you can't save everyone. People have different believes, and you'll have to tolerate that.

I'm not trying to save anyone. I know for a fact that no one will believe what i'm saying unless God himself plants it in to their conscience.

I know people hate this message. It's not MEANT to be pleasing to the ego. It's the truth, and it's the means God appointed to bring people to the truth.

Christ was crucified for declaring himself to be God, and for declaring he is "THE way, THE truth, and THE life."

And I'm not ashamed to declare him to all of you.

All of God's prophets, apostles, and preachers--and the entirety of God's Church, have believed this message, to the saving of their souls.

And the fact is, if God does not bring you to faith in Jesus Christ, you will be damned for all eternity. End of story.

You MUST come to Christ, and repent of your sin---not just acts of sin, but the fact that you ARE sin.

And you must trust in him, in his righteousness, and sacrificial death as the just payment for all of your sin, or you will not be saved. You'll be damned.

It doesn't matter if people like that or not, it's the truth. And you cannot use the excuse that you didn't know.

Now you do.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If Jesus was unable to sin because he did not have the sin nature, then how was it possible for Adam to sin? Is he not also supposed to be without a sin nature before his fall?

It rather undermines Paul's comparison of The First Adam with The Second Adam if Jesus never had any capacity to sin as Adam had, but strengthens it if he had equal capacity yet never sinned.

You are missing the forest for the trees.

You overlook the fact that Christ is GOD, and Adam was just a MAN.

THAT is why Christ cannot sin--He's GOD.

And until you get that, you won't understand anything else.

The doctrine that God would not force salvation on those who choose to reject this grace does not make God a sinner. Doing otherwise would be tantamount to rape.

The fact is, unless God intervenes and overpowers the sinner's will, that sinner has no ability or desire to come to God. He HATES God.

And if you equate SAVING the SOUL of a CONDEMNED SINNER to RAPE, then you have an utterly bizarre lack of judgment.

If God must "violate" a sinner's "precious Free-Will" to save them, then that's not RAPE, that's GRACE. And it's the greatest gift a sinner could receive.

What you're saying is a demonstration of the DARKNESS of UNBELIEF.

You can't discern truth from error. You're lost.

You need Christ.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

This.

Regardless of how you see him after he was baptized, what about the large chunks of time of his life that weren't detailed in the Bible? He was just a guy like every one of us. Sinning and being a carpenter.

What makes you focus on His baptism as a turning point?

I think his answer, when found after three days in Jerusalem among the doctors of the law; and the reaction of St Elizabeth and the unborn St John the Baptist, not to mention the choirs of angels at His birth point to something different than a regular sinner.

 

[Barnabas]

@SovereignGrace
I haven't read through all the pages here, but to me you sound like a fanatic. By that I don't mean to imply that you are wrong by any mean, just that you are fanatically convinced that you are right. The problem, as I see it, is that you're pushing your believes on others. You're trying to save people from an ill fate, but as good as the intention might be you can't save everyone. People have different believes, and you'll have to tolerate that.

'
'
Soverign Grace isn't a fanatic, if nothing else he genuinely believes that this is the best way to help people, it's not m matter of toleration its and matter of love. If you knew all of your friends were going to die because of their choices in life(let's use smoking as an example) then would you feel compelled to tell them what they're doing will kill them how could you not if you loved them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What makes you focus on His baptism as a turning point?

I think his answer, when found after three days in Jerusalem among the doctors of the law; and the reaction of St Elizabeth and the unborn St John the Baptist, not to mention the choirs of angels at His birth point to something different than a regular sinner.

EVERYTHING in the Bible points to him being INCAPABLE of SIN.

The problem is, no one bothers to READ it before they speak about it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

'
'
Soverign Grace isn't a fanatic, if nothing else he genuinely believes that this is the best way to help people, it's not m matter of toleration its and matter of love. If you knew all of your friends were going to die because of their choices in life(let's use smoking as an example) then would you feel compelled to tell them what they're doing will kill them how could you not if you loved them.

Exactly.

I'm warning you because your eternal soul is in danger, and salvation is in Christ, and in Christ alone.

 

[say what]

'
'
Soverign Grace isn't a fanatic, if nothing else he genuinely believes that this is the best way to help people, it's not m matter of toleration its and matter of love. If you knew all of your friends were going to die because of their choices in life(let's use smoking as an example) then would you feel compelled to tell them what they're doing will kill them how could you not if you loved them.

There's a difference between trying to help your friend to quit smoking, and then going to a random forum where you don't know anyone and condemning them to hell for smoking. I understand that it might be a kind and helpful gesture, but would you feel the same way if someone came on here calling us all fatties and telling us to stop consuming processed food and exercise more? Likely not. We would say it's our choice to live our lives the way we want, and accept the outcomes - good or bad.

It's not wrong to tell people your beliefs or try and explain to people why you believe you are right in order to educate and help them...but there comes a point where blasting someone with your own beliefs and perceptions to 'save' them, when they don't want to be saved, becomes intolerant.

So, regardless of what a person believes, that person must also accept (with tolerance and respect), that people might not want to adhere to their principles. I love my friends and accept their choices.

 

[j654dgj7]

What makes you focus on His baptism as a turning point?

I think his answer, when found after three days in Jerusalem among the doctors of the law; and the reaction of St Elizabeth and the unborn St John the Baptist, not to mention the choirs of angels at His birth point to something different than a regular sinner.

I pointed to his baptism because that was the start of his ministry. We don't really know anything that happened to him, or what he did, between the age of 12-30. We just know that he accepted his role on the world at around age 30 to bring his fathers word to the world. Before that, he is believed to have worked as a carpenter.

The way I see it, Jesus was in total connection to God when he was born and the years after he was baptized leading up to his death and resurrection.

Remember, the Bible was written by people as they saw it. It wasn't written by God as absolute fact (see: The Quran). The same events are depicted differently in the gospels. Some things might have been exaggerated or forgotten between the years of Jesus life and the time it was written down. Why wasn't it written down immediately? Because this was a time before print, and most of the early Christians believed that they were living in the end times (as a lot of them still do). When they realized that they most probably weren't, they decided to write it down for future generations.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Exactly.

I'm warning you because your eternal soul is in danger, and salvation is in Christ, and in Christ alone.

I don't think people would object so much to the message - that "Salvation is in Christ and in Christ alone", which is why repentance in Christ is so great - so much as people might object to your assumption that they are in more danger than you are.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't think people would object so much to the message - that "Salvation is in Christ and in Christ alone", which is why repentance in Christ is so great - so much as people might object to your assumption that they are in more danger than you are.

It's not about them being in more danger than me.

It's that their faith is not in Christ, so they're in danger.

God has given me faith in his Son, Jesus Christ. So I'm not in danger any more. But they still are.

Don't you see?

If you don't warn people why they need salvation in Christ, then what reason do they have to seek it?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I pointed to his baptism because that was the start of his ministry. We don't really know anything that happened to him, or what he did, between the age of 12-30. We just know that he accepted his role on the world at around age 30 to bring his fathers word to the world. Before that, he is believed to have worked as a carpenter.

The way I see it, Jesus was in total connection to God when he was born and the years after he was baptized leading up to his death and resurrection.

Remember, the Bible was written by people as they saw it. It wasn't written by God as absolute fact (see: The Quran). The same events are depicted differently in the gospels. Some things might have been exaggerated or forgotten between the years of Jesus life and the time it was written down. Why wasn't it written down immediately? Because this was a time before print, and most of the early Christians believed that they were living in the end times (as a lot of them still do). When they realized that they most probably weren't, they decided to write it down for future generations.

None of the people who wrote the Bible - even decades after the crucifixion and ascension - saw that Christ was ever capable of sin. In fact, that point is expressed both explicitly and indirectly. "Like us in all things but sin"; and the numerous examples of those who rejected Christ by accusing him of sin.

It seems that the authors of the Bible - and all Christians since - make the point that if you think Christ was a sinner, you just don't get him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

None of the people who wrote the Bible - even decades after the crucifixion and ascension - saw that Christ was ever capable of sin. In fact, that point is expressed both explicitly and indirectly. "Like us in all things but sin"; and the numerous examples of those who rejected Christ by accusing him of sin.

It seems that the authors of the Bible - and all Christians since - make the point that if you think Christ was a sinner, you just don't get him.

PRECISELY.

And despite any claims that you are a Christian, if you think he was capable of sin, then you don't know him.

 

[Lark]

i suppose it would be difficult for a dog to become a horse or for a camel to worm itself through a needle's eye or for an incorruptible human to become imperfect. he is rather special in that sense.

Yeah but Jesus was true God AND true man, he wasnt true God and resembled man or true God in the shape of man, you know?

A camel can travel through the eye of a needle without a burden upon its back, the "eye of the needle" was an arch way that traders used in Jesus day, through which camels with no or little burden could pass easily but through which a heavily burdened camel could not. It is not as supernatural a suggestion as it appears when you know what it means.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

It's not about them being in more danger than me.

It's that their faith is not in Christ, so they're in danger.

God has given me faith in his Son, Jesus Christ. So I'm not in danger any more. But they still are.

Don't you see?

If you don't warn people why they need salvation in Christ, then what reason do they have to seek it?

If you don't think you are in danger, I don't know how you can understand, or relate to what is written in the epistles. You certainly have a mind-set which bears no resemblance to St Paul, or St Peter in this respect.

Faith is only the beginning of salvation, not its accomplishment. Faith without charity, without love is worthless, noisy and hollow (you know the Pauline text I am alluding to) - and St John is adamant about the command of love. And in respect of having having both faith and love, Our Lord says - If you love me, keep my commandments. And all this, so that we are not as orphans, fatherless, but so that we may abide in the Father.

Faith is the beginning of salvation, but charity is its completion/perfection. Who on earth today can claim to be so filled with charity, so that increase is not possible?

As a Christian we must grow - and it is in respect of charity that we must grow, lest like a fruitless branch we be cut off. There is then two conversions: the conversion to belief; and the conversion, or repentance for failure in charity. It is not a fair exegesis, but Our Lord says "repent AND believe" - which can be read to mean repent from unbelief - except ignorance would be admonished: hear and believe; or see and believe (St. Thomas); but I think Our Lord is saying that we should both repent and believe - in order to be complete in Him.