Enneagram Type 8

Tulip said:
I would say 8w9s probably appear to be less extroverted than 8w7s due to the withdrawn 9 wing. I still doubt if there is any truly introverted 8sdue to their expansiveness and high energy level.
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Are you saying that there are no introverted MBTI types that are 8's, or are you saying that introverted MBTI type 8's are never especially introverted? There are quite a few people on the list of famous 8's who are also definitely MBTI introverts. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr was an INFJ 8w9.

Also, "expansiveness and high energy level" are simply extroverted traits. If most 8's are extroverts, then it is highly likely that these traits have been assigned to them. There's nothing about 8 that inherently implies these things. 8's have built their motivation set around strengthening themselves to protect against vulnerability. How each MBTI type manifests this is based on that MBTI type's perspective of what is strength and power. ESTPs see strength and power as personal power like being a physical bad ass. ENTJs see strength and power as resources and systems like law, corporations, etc. An INTJ would likely see knowledge as strength and power, and probably move toward influence in an academic field. An INFJ would likely see strength and power in the spiritual and philosophical.

I do believe that if someone is both an MBTI introvert and an Enneagram 8, then they're going to be a borderline Extrovert - at least with respect to social attitude. However, MBTI is based on Jung's cognitive functions which are not referencing social attitude, but mental perspective when the words introvert and extrovert are applied. Introversion implies micro perspective, while extroversion implies macro perspective. These two things often align with social attitude, but not always, and Introvert + Enneagram 8 is a prime example of the difference. Interpersonally bold, but focused on the intimate scale.
 
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VH said:
Are you saying that there are no introverted MBTI types that are 8's or are you saying that introverted MBTI type 8's are never especially introverted?
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The latter.
 
VH said:
I'm glad we agree. I very much respect your opinions on the Enneagram.

(Sorry for the lecture.)
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Not a problem. :wink:

I just can't see how a very introverted person is supposed to be able to dominate their environment like an 8 does, as an instinctive type.
 
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Tulip said:
Not a problem. :wink:

I just can't see how a very introverted person is supposed to be able to dominate their environment in the physical realm like an 8 does, as an instinctive type.
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Yeah, I have to agree on that point. I have a very strong Se for an INFJ, and I'm certain this was due to my 8ish imperatives. However, I feel like I draw much more upon the spiritual and philosophical to engage my environment than I could through 'direct' means. I still have the urge, I just approach it from an atypical direction - but, I'm not above dropping to Se if I have to.

INFJ and Enneagram 8 are at odds with one another in many ways, and I can see how this had been throwing off my self assessments. Enneagram 8 was leaning me toward ENFJ even though I'm far too callous and independent to be an Fe dom, not to mention my clearly micro scale perspective. INFJ was throwing off my Enneagram assessments because I don't share all of the 8 surface descriptors.

Most importantly, I was really doubting the combination because I refused to accept that I could be both the rarest MBTI type, and in addition, the rarest Enneagram pairing for that type. I guess I really am that odd.
 
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I am realizing that I am a mean, pushy, domineering prick that is made of rage, lust, and aggression.

It takes zero energy for me to be this way. This is what is at the core of me. It takes energy for me to NOT be this way. It takes energy for me to hold this back, glaze it over, candy coat it, and focus on what is good. It takes energy for me to be kind, polite, affable, and accomodating. When I run out of energy, motivation, and inspiration, this is all that's left of me.

Fuck.
 
A couple of observations I've got about the enneagram (and I have to say that I share some of the misgivings expressed by another poster here that it is a bit too much like astrology in some regards) ...

The reason it is seen as a circle with links between types is that the enneagram is to be viewed as a whole. Apparently there are elements of each type in all of us but usually, a particular set of traits will dominate in a person. The person might be influenced to a greater or lesser extent by the wing which is the type either side of their number but again this is variable.

There are apparently people who will, over time and with a lot of work on their personal development, move more towards being an integrated type ... that is, not scoring particularly highly in any one number as a dominant type. These people presumably have spent a lot of time working on themselves and studying the direction of integration and disintegration for each type.

The types most likely to misidentify themselves are Nines and Sixes. Nines have problems with aggression - make no mistake. It is true that Ones are motivated by anger and perfection but the anger of a Nine should not be underestimated. I have only just worked out recently that my husband is in fact a Nine and not a Six as I originally thought. Interesting though isn't it that both types have problems trying to work out where they fit into things. Both types can experience difficulty with self-recognition and awareness. They can also see so much of others in themselves that it can be hard to separate out which is which.

My husband is a typical Nine. I had thought he was a Six but something didn't quite fit. The description of a Nine and how they deal with anger and conflict was very revealing for me though. Quiet and peaceable until aroused ... perfectly as you described yourself. As a Nine it is possible for you to have the Eight wing and it sounds like that is what you might have.

I am an INFJ myself and type as enneagram 4 with a 5 wing. I have come to realise that while not impossible for an INFJ to be an Eight it is highly unlikely given the known traits of INFJ for the two to go together. Note I didn't say impossible, but unlikely. If I were to persistently type as Eight when doing an enneagram test, I would perhaps be thinking either I needed to look again at my MBTI as perhaps I was a different type or maybe, just maybe I was actually an enneagram type Nine or Six.

Clearly I am not an expert but from my reading on this topic recently I thought it was worth sharing. I certainly found that bit about Sixes and Nines to be very enlightening and as I mentioned, it sorted out once and for all what type my husband was. Hope you don't mind me chiming in here.
 
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Interestingly enough, melbo... I hadn't considered the possibility of being an extroverted 9. All of the 9's I know are introverts and I don't see a lot of myself in them, therefore because I have been assuming that I'm an introvert then I can't be a 9. I'll have to ponder this. Thanks for the creative spark.

Would extroverted 9 seem like a borderline introvert?
 
I know plenty of introverted 9w1s in real life. Social first 9w8s can seem like extroverts. You don't seem like a 9 though.
 
VH said:
I am realizing that I am a mean, pushy, domineering prick that is made of rage, lust, and aggression. ... It takes energy for me to hold this back, glaze it over, candy coat it, and focus on what is good.
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So true! I wouldn't say I'm mean, pushy or domineering, though. That trait of mine never shows itself openly and I have made it a rule to simply shut up when situations are becoming tense.

But when my 8 is very pronounced then I'm usually out there: partying, networking, you name it. Strangely, I think back then I was "healthier" than now, even though I was more extroverted (compared to my native introversion), assertive, aggressive etc.

Somehow all the pressure that I'm currently experiencing has made me retreat to my shell again. My Se is parked, my Te is bored. I definitely have to find that "sweet spot" again.

I feel like I went to the "dark side" (apologies for going sci-fi, but that really captures it): strength out of hate and not out of compassion; the conviction that you can't win against indecent people without compromising your values, and so on.
 
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VH said:
This is exactly where I am at. ^
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And how are you planning to do that?

Today I experimented a bit while I was waiting in the mall: I used my Se on purpose, by seeing the way a photographer does, which is basically trying to see the things you usually don't look at: the reflections on the marble floor, the geometric shapes formed by multiple levels in the room, the vibrant colors etc. Kinda exhausting, but it pulled me out into the world. And I think that's what I will have to do.
 
I just had one of those Ni moments...

If the Ego of an INFJ (or ENFJ) is represented by Ni and Fe (or Fe and Ni), and Enneagram 8 is about assertion... would it not stand to reason that an INFJ or ENFJ 8 would primarily seek to assert their Ego, which is Ni and Fe?

And therefore, the descriptions of Enneagram 8s are generally showing how ENTJs, ESTJs, ESTPs, and ESFPs manifest their Ego (Te and Se) because most E8s are these MBTI types, which is why the details of 8 are so often confused with the manifestations of those types' Ego?

If this is the case, then it perfectly explains the superhero complex of the INFJ and ENFJ 8s. Normally, Ni and Fe have a drive to accommodate and ponder, but with the assertion of 8, this becomes a drive to make the world a better place and increase the good in it.

Enneagram 8 can actually be a good thing... in fact one of the best things. It brings with it a powerful drive to assert and if that drive is rooted in good, then it can be amazing. I'm tired of being down on myself for my failings. My anger, my lust, my unyieldingness. I can't change these things. What I can change is why I have them and what I am compelled to do with them. I choose to do the most good.
 
... and then I read this...

Nine With an 8 Wing
Awakened Nines with an 8 wing have a modest, steady, receptive core. They are charged by the dynamism of 8 - when focused on goals they often have great force of will. Get things done, make good leaders. May have an animal magnetism of which they are only partly aware. Can seem highly centered, take what they do seriously but remain unimpressed with themselves. 8 wing can bring a strong internal sense of direction. Relatively fearless and highly intuitive. Generally not intellectual unless they have it in their background.
When more entranced, they manifest the contradictions of the two styles expressing them in sequence. Could be passively amiable like a Nine and then turn horribly blunt like an 8. One moment they are opinionated or nasty, next moment kindly and supportive. Often don't hear their voices when angry. Can have a sharp, grating edge. May be slow to anger and then explode. Or angry but don't know it; may confuse being assertive with being rude. Placidly callous - both styles support numbness. Tactless and indiscriminate and indiscreet. May be unwittingly disloyal, spilling everyone's secrets. Sexual confusion, sometimes they are driven by lust.

Real-Life Nines With an 8 Wing: Clint Eastwood, Peter Falk, Gerald Ford, James Garner, John Goodman, Elliott Gould, Woody Harrelson, Helmut Kohl, Carl Rogers, Gena Rowlands, Gloria Steinem.
Movie Nines With an 8 Wing: Richard Burton, Beckett; Sean Connery, The Russia House; Clint Eastwood, Tightrope, Unforgiven; Sam Elliott, Lifeguard; Elliott Gould, The Long Goodbye; Woody Harrelson, White Men Can't Jump; Bob Hoskins, Mona Lisa; Ann-Margret, A New Life; Al Pacino, Sea Of Love.

Intimate
Focused on an ideal of romantic union. Get lost in one relationship or in the yearning to have one. High expectations of partner. Sometimes sound melancholy like a Four. Prone to jealousy. May settle on someone and then grow critical and have a wandering eye. Can also deny their partner's flaws and idealize them to stay in union.
Another scenario involves multiple relationships, searching from one person to the next. Sometimes the Nine can't decide between two people. Triangulation. Paradoxically, this subtype can be fickle because they are so easily disappointed.
Good movie examples include: Andie MacDowell, sex, lies and video; Ann-Margret, Carnal Knowledge; Shirley MacLaine, The Apartment; Joanne Woodward, Mr. And Mrs. Bridge.
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CONNECTING POINTS (Stress and Security)

Nine's Connection to 6
The high side of this connection brings several qualities, among them courage. Whereas healthy Sixes develop the courage to do, Nines find the courage to be. Connection helps them challenge fears and take risks. Expose the inner self they usually disguise with self-effacement. Can also be especially loyal friends, faithful and committed to those they love. Connection brings tenacity and a willingness to see things through. Realistic, more able to acknowledge what can go wrong.
More entranced, they develop a nervous, agitated quality. Can overanticipate new events, start to doubt themselves. Obsessive worry distracts them from the need to take useful action or see the obvious. Go scatterbrained. Nine's laziness is reinforced by 6's tendency to procrastinate. Nines put off what is specifically important to their well-being.
Dependency often an issue - will hand over responsibility, then blame others for making the decisions that the Nine won't make. Cowardice, may wimp out on agreements. 8 wing and this connection can make for antiauthority attitudes.

Movie Nines who demonstrate this connection: Jeff Goldblum, The Tall Guy; Andie MacDowell, sex, lies and video; Wallace Shawn, My Dinner With Andre; Imelda Staunton, Antonia And Jane; Donald Sutherland, Ordinary People; Joanne Woodward, Mr. And Mrs. Bridge.

Nine's Connection to 3
High side brings a kind of clarity of the heart. Can suddenly see clearly and prioritize on their own behalf. Take decisive deliberate steps towards goals important to them personally. Steady persistence: when focused, Nines are unstoppable. Connection brings energy and industry and helps with appropriate social presentation. Willing to dress up and voluntarily play roles in the service of goals.
Unhealthy connection brings tendencies towards role-playing, vanity and hyperactivity. Can allow themselves to go false and be defined by a milieu. Play out roles based on the expectations of others. May get caught in vanity and take pleasure in being mistaken for an image. Can have a prince or princess-like quality, act a little entitled. Proud of what others praise, but secretly know it isn't who they really are. Underneath the image, a Nine may feel indefinite and numbly unworthy. Can be fascinated by phoniness in others, want to break through or tear it down. Their unfocused hyperactivity is a busy, active form of sleep.

Movie Nines who demonstrate this connection: Richard Burton, Beckett; John Cleese, A Fish Called Wanda; Tom Cruise, Risky Business; Willem Dafoe, Light Sleeper; Jeff Daniels, Terms Of Endearment; Sam Elliott, Lifeguard; Jeremy Irons, Damage; Andie MacDowell, sex, lies and video; Peter Riegert, Local Hero; Imelda Staunton, Antonia And Jane; Donald Sutherland, Ordinary People.
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Now *that* is interesting ^^. I like what it's saying about the nine connection to six as well as three. I've felt the six connection many times, and every once in a while the three. But I like the descriptions.

Do you have a link to those descriptions, @VH?
 
arbygil said:
Now *that* is interesting ^^. I like what it's saying about the nine connection to six as well as three. I've felt the six connection many times, and every once in a while the three. But I like the descriptions.

Do you have a link to those descriptions, @VH?
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I believe VH got these from this site. The full write up of VH's quotes can be found here.
 
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