Etiquette

[Elder]

This is precisely why I like etiquette. I want to know the expectations without ambiguity. Social behaviors are murky, and etiquette is clear. The only issue is learning the different etiquette for each group.

This topic has really had me wrestling with my distaste of etiquette. I think you like it for the same reason I dislike it. Difficulty with picking up social cues and expectations. I have not really had the experience of people taking care to gently and kindly show me the proper etiquette without judgment. So, etiquette seems very murky and often illogical to me. So is trying to read social behaviors though so, [shrug]. I just meander the world confused and anxious. Lol

I was talking to my boyfriend about this today and he gave me a dial metaphor to work with. On one end we don't just pull down our pants and poop wherever. True. That rule I see. (though I was compelled to point out that my understanding is in some rural areas of China they do, lol) Then what fork to use or what exactly cocktail dress code means runs to the other end. He's right. It isn't just etiquette as a stable construct. And, I do get and follow some of the basics.

Yet, overall, I am probably not someone who finds etiquette super helpful at navigating social. It's just part of the muck for me. Maybe I will find a gentle teacher someday like at your dojo. Maybe this thread will eventually become my gentle teacher.

For now though, I will stop pooping here.

Now will begin observing quietly and reflecting with interest as those who value etiquette teach me its value.

 

[Asa]

This topic has really had me wrestling with my distaste of etiquette. I think you like it for the same reason I dislike it. Difficulty with picking up social cues and expectations. I have not really had the experience of people taking care to gently and kindly show me the proper etiquette without judgment. So, etiquette seems very murky and often illogical to me. So is trying to read social behaviors though so, [shrug]. I just meander the world confused and anxious. Lol

I think so. My etiquette also isn’t great, TBH. I want to know what the default right thing to do is, though, so I don’t upset people. If I do upset people (guaranteed) I want to know that at least my behavior was by the book.

 

[John K]

The solution here is that we should be holding doors for everyone within a certain distance from us and we should give up a seat to anyone who needs it more than we do.

It isn't as simple as that though is it? The rules of etiquette are like language - at least they are for me. To be truly effective their use has to be unselfconscious otherwise we can come across as awkward, or even insincere. Like with language, our fluency or lack of it is immediately obvious to native speakers; similarly to language, we are most fluent with the social rules we learnt in childhood, those that we just do without having to consciously think about it. The ones we adopt in later life will probably have the equivalent of an accent, and may come across as gauche.

I can understand and rattle off the concepts and rational for etiquette without any problems, but actually doing it in the heat of battle .... ah no! I was born as one of life's outsiders and I don't really fit in anywhere, so I will always seem out of place in any social group to a greater or lesser extent. It used to bother me, but not so much any more - I try and show care and concern for others as far as possible within their own social rules of engagement, but I very rarely feel truly 'one-of-us' in any group. I suppose that having got to that point sometime in my late teens, I lost any desire to change things. After that I suppose what I've done is to treat the protocols of each group I've encountered a bit like folks treat the rules of a computer game - something both interesting and necessary for the game but of no vital importance to my 'real' life.

The one rule I do try to cling to is the second great Christian commandment to love others as you love yourself, but how far I succeed with that one I fear to explore - it does make the solution of to how to behave in overcrowded transport pretty straightforward, though. Mind you, these days someone is as likely to give up their seat for me as me them!

I feel there are some of the same issues in the conversation you are having here with @Elder.

 

[aeon]

The solution here is that we should be holding doors for everyone within a certain distance from us

I hold doors for everyone.

At some recent point I said to myself “You are a disabled person holding the door for the able-bodied. Why?”

I said to myself “Thatʼs what I do because thatʼs who I am. And because I still can.”

If Iʼm holding the door for someone who is disabled (and moving slow), my patience is zero cost. Itʼs not even patience, because Iʼm not waiting.

Iʼve done this since I was able to hold a door. In that way, it is reflexive, and never awkward.

I love when there are successive doors, and I encounter a door holder, so there is turnabout. Itʼs a little dance.

I also like holding the door for children, especially if there is a number of them, along with a parent or adult who is herding them along. Sometimes the thank you reveals that they are well-beleaguered.

Iʼve tried not doing it and letʼs just say I canʼt not do it.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[John K]

I hold doors for everyone.

Same. I don’t give up my seat on public transport for everyone though. I’d only do it for someone who obviously needs it more than I do. 60 years ago any honourable man of reasonable health would give up their seat for a woman of whatever their age and needs. Times change.

 

[Asa]

I like where you're going with this, but I think a minor tweak on this definition is important. Fe isn't exactly a desire to go along with as much as a need for values consensus. Often, the easiest way to achieve this is by going along with. At other times, Fe will seek to create and enforce values consensus. Using etiquette can be a great way to achieve that. As much as Fe is concerned with avoiding upsetting people, it is concerned with making sure people aren't upset. Some people lean more on the enforcing values side while others lean on the going along with.

I do think it is that simple. Hold the door for anyone within a certain distance from us, and give up our seats for seniors, pregnant people, people on crutches or with canes, etc. If they decline, don't offer again. Young women don't need men to give up their seats anymore.

The ones we adopt in later life will probably have the equivalent of an accent, and may come across as gauche.

I've heard this said about Americans who eat in the European style keeping the fork and knife in hand the entire time.
I've also heard that it is OK for left-handed Americans to eat this way, though, because we keep the fork in the left hand anyway.
This is amusing to me. IDC either way.

 

[Elder]

OK, I have a real etiquette question.

If you have already basically invited yourself to someone else's home to play games because your home is a mess and not fit for guests, is it appropriate etiquette to offer to bring take-out for everyone. (Not home-cooked food, because that also is not fit for guests)

What say you?

(Yes, this my real life example)

 

[Asa]

OK, I have a real etiquette question.

If you have already basically invited yourself to someone else's home to play games because your home is a mess and not fit for guests, is it appropriate etiquette to offer to bring take-out for everyone. (Not home-cooked food, because that also is not fit for guests)

What say you?

(Yes, this my real life example)

Inviting yourself makes you the host of the event, so yes, you are responsible for food and refreshments.

 

[aeon]

Inviting yourself makes you the host of the event, so yes, you are responsible for food and refreshments.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Elder]

Inviting yourself makes you the host of the event, so yes, you are responsible for food and refreshments.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.

Cheers,
Ian

Oh Lord, you two scare me. Lol!

Anxiety attack at how quickly that came to you both and how I really don't know how to navigate things.

Be gentle with me Mr. and Ms. Post.

 

[John K]

I've heard this said about Americans who eat in the European style keeping the fork and knife in hand the entire time.
I've also heard that it is OK for left-handed Americans to eat this way, though, because we keep the fork in the left hand anyway.
This is amusing to me. IDC either way.

I use my computer mouse in my left hand, though I'm right-handed. Freaks people out if anyone uses my desktop computer and they have to change it over. I've always eaten with my knife and fork the wrong way round - tried once or twice to change over, but the results were much less appropriate for polite company, so what the hell and vive la difference . When we started working closely with folks from the US in the 1990s, it intrigued me to see how some of you cut your food up with knife right and fork left, then put the knife down and eat with just the fork in the right hand.
We ended up in teams with people from many parts of Europe and America - with all the differences, it didn't seem to matter and we got to enjoy each others' different ways. There were other protocols that were more difficult to navigate though - the Swedish managers expected everyone to accept a decision and implement it once it had been made. British and American staff don't work like that - they challenge and critique at any stage and their own managers expect it, so we must have seemed very rude to our Swedish colleagues until we all got used to each other. This was definitely a difference in etiquette but with a significant impact because it interfered with the way the teams worked until things settled down.

@Elder thinking about your Ethiopian friend - I was taken for a meal in a Moroccan restaurant once by our American colleagues in Delaware. That was amazing - there were no tables, just a lush carpet, wall hangings and loads of very soft settees. There were no plates and no cutlery - we were all given rugs to put on our laps instead of plates. The food was placed on low tables in front of us and we just grabbed what we wanted and ate with our hands. I've no idea if our manners were appropriate or not - I suspect a Moroccan family would have get less food on the floor than we did, but none of us were from North Africa, so we just had a good laugh and a really good meal. I'd have felt very awkward though if I'd been taken there by North African colleagues! I'd have felt like I was back in my highchair learning to use a fork for the first time

 

[aeon]

Iʼm a fork left, knife right person. If the knife is needed.

Soup spoon right. Chopsticks right. In general, right.

That said, Iʼll lick my plate clean afterward, so if you need to sequester me in a back room away from the other guests, thatʼs okay, I understand.

Best,
Ian

 

[Asa]

I'm left-handed, so fork left, knife right. Chopsticks left. I know it is improper to use chopsticks with the left hand, so if I ever go to Japan, I will learn to use them with my right hand so as not to offend. I would adapt to other cultures where using the left hand to eat is taboo as well. Otherwise, I am stubborn about using my left hand.

One of my favorite etiquette facts that I never engage in (because etiquette is local) is the fact that asparagus is a finger food unless it has a sauce or the host offers personal asparagus tongs. People generally lose their minds if someone eats with their fingers at dinner, though. This is one of those things I find entertaining as I watch an entire table of people using improper etiquette to eat a vegetable because they believe it is proper to use a knife and fork. If I mention this as a fun fact, people think I'm wrong and usually scoff.

Slurping is also proper or improper, depending on the culture. In Japan, slurping is proper in some cases. In the US, it is frowned upon. Miss Manners claims we are allowed to slurp ice cream sodas. (You're allowed three slurps.)


A little bit of local punk etiquette to demonstrate how etiquette can be specific to small groups and cultures: In punk culture, if someone falls in the pit, we pick them up. This is also used as a metaphor for helping each other when we fall in life.
We don't mouth off to each other unless we mean it and are willing to make an enemy and literally fight. This is why I'm always taken aback by the audacity people have online.
There are many subtle old rules about how shoelaces are tied and the meaning behind the color of the shoelace (lace code), how hair is fanned or spiked, etc. Most of these outfit and grooming rules have disappeared, but old-school punks remember. A few years ago, there was an outcry about the choice of laces on a Doc Martens billboard.

Similarly, if a band plays a show with or tours with another band, they exchange t-shirts and music (records, CDs, etc) and often give a free CD or record to the person hosting them for the night. Swedish bands do not participate in this tradition. Swedes do not give anything away for free, even in exchange for another band's CD. Maybe some do, but I've never seen it happen, and it is an open joke that they don't. I understand why, and I find it charming, too, but it is still an open joke.

 

[slant]

I think I shifted from the idea of etiquette to preferences recently and I like that better.

I used to think there were certain "right" things to do or procedures but then I just realized it depends on each individual so it's impossible to know for sure. I used to not text old people after 9pm because my grandpa texts me goodnight at like 7pm so I thought like 9pm is was late. But then some old relatives started texting me at like 12am even 2am so I just began asking people about their texting boundaries.

Some families you have to wait until everyone sits down before you start eating. Some don't do that. Is it etiquette as much as it is rituals maybe?

But to be honest, if my etiquette doesn't fit in line with my preferences I just am not going to follow it no matter what the social consequences are. I don't care. For example I try to tell people about my need to have start times and end times for events. When I host an event and it's over I will literally kick everyone out if they try to linger. And I want to know when an event is supposed to end so I don't get trapped there forever.

But these are all just silly preferences, seems like the best we can do is communicate our preferences and hope it lines up with other people so we can get along.

 

[Fluffyhamster]

Do 4chan and the comments sections on social media platforms have forms of etiquette?

 

[aeon]

Do 4chan and the comments sections on social media platforms have forms of etiquette?

Certainly, and it varies from site to site, and within sites over time.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Asa]

I have a question for everyone.

Today an old photo popped up in my socials. This small group of people is important to me, but we've disconnected since Covid. I felt like I needed a catalyst to pull us back together, so when I saw this photo of the good times we shared, I commented on it. The group included two couples, and one man named V. V's ex was not tagged, and she was not in the photo. Many people had commented on the old post, though, including V's ex.

V's ex DM'd me, told me she and V broke up last year, and implied that it was a faux pas for me to comment on this post. She also implied it could hurt V's feelings. She said she and V are still close friends. She did say V hasn't been letting his friends know. (Also, for some reason, this conversation is continuing with this weird tone/implication.)

I erased my comment. I don't want to be insensitive. I also do not believe I did anything wrong, and I do not believe I committed any kind of etiquette transgression or faux pas. She wasn't tagged in the post. She, along with many other people, commented on the original post with, "Wish I was there."
However, since etiquette is about thinking of others, I erased my comment.

Dear forum peeps, did I commit a faux pas, or did I just get caught in the emotional crosshairs of a break-up?

 

[Elder]

Dear forum peeps, did I commit a faux pas, or did I just get caught in the emotional crosshairs of a break-up?

From my perspective, the latter. In addition, I think you responded with enormous graciousness to V's ex.

 

[John K]

@Asa I don’t think this is lacking in etiquette. For a start, how were you to know they’d broken up? If the photo represented an occasion that was very special to them as a couple then it was charitable of you to withdraw your comment when you found out.

If it wasn’t a special occasion for them, then I can maybe understand her problem, but I can’t sympathise. She wasn’t in the photo, she wasn’t tagged, and she says she and V are still on good terms.

I think there is only so much we can do to accommodate each partner of a couple that splits up. Neither of them can reasonably expect the split to mean old friends cannot reconnect - that would be a significant breach of etiquette in my book.

 

[Asa]

Thank you, @Elder.