Etiquette

[Asa]

Today, I learned that etiquette expert Letitia Baldridge worked for the CIA. She was also a public relations executive and was Jackie Kennedy's Social Secretary.
I already knew Judith Martin (Miss Manners) was a White House reporter and broke important stories because people assumed she wasn't a "real" journalist because she was a woman and covered social events, so they said things in front of her that they should not have mentioned in front of the press. LOL.

The crossover is interesting, especially Baldridge being CIA. She became an etiquette expert after she retired (from the CIA). There is a quote where she compares public relations to mind control experiments and political manipulation. If you understand a culture, you can persuade them more easily.

 

[Asa]

Etiquette is no longer taught or practiced in a uniform way, so people don't always understand proper etiquette, or worse: they make up their own and expect others to comply.

When someone exhibits poor etiquette, IMO, the better thing to do is to give them the benefit of the doubt. Rules that may seem obvious to [us] may not be obvious to others.

Case in point: a friend was listed as a reference on someone's resume, and the job seeker didn't ask them. This wasn't a malicious mistake. People don't list references (people they hold in esteem whom they hope will speak favorably about them) with malice. They probably didn't know that you need to ask people to be references and then send a gift of thanks and appreciation after they secure a job.

It's also possible that they've experienced the use of references without permission (they were listed as a reference without permission, or they saw someone else do it) and thought that was the correct procedure.


I notice that people get angry and offended when someone is rude before they assume the person simply doesn't know the etiquette for the situation. I always wonder how people are supposed to learn etiquette in the first place and why people assume everyone knows the (specific) rule. It makes me defensive of neurodivergent people, too, especially autistic people who won't pick up on unspoken subtleties and assumptions.

I often witness the misuse of etiquette in the other direction. Often, people act rude and then expect the target to be polite in response. The target doesn't have to be polite to anyone deliberately being rude to them. That's proper etiquette.
So if you say someone's new haircut or outfit is ugly, ask them if they're pregnant (NEVER ask someone if they are pregnant), or deliberately target them, and their response hurts your feelings, you had it coming and they're following etiquette because you're the jerk.

 

[Wyote]

I'm definitely ignorant of a lot of etiquette rules, and I grew up in an environment that organically taught me a lot of it to begin with.
You can't go wrong defaulting to kindness unless/until your kindness is being taken advantage of.

 

[aeon]

You can't go wrong defaulting to kindness unless/until your kindness is being taken advantage of.

So go hard as fuck, lest you be eaten alive. /s

Actually, I’ve had some thoughts lately about kindness springing forth from love. If this is indeed the case, kindness is as unassailable as loving spirit.

Of course, this presupposes the boss-level boundaries which result from loving oneself.

In my day to day, I endeavor to be kind, and mannered, and engaging. When I treat “service workers” as the human beings they are, they glow. So do most strangers, each in their own way. And in those times I am able to engage with a child, they get my full attention (and I know that’s marked down as surplus on account of the ADHD). I will also get down on their level, and then after I try to keep a straight face when I get back up.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Wyote]

So go hard as fuck, lest you be eaten alive. /s

Lol it's like you don't even know me smh

kindness is as unassailable as loving spirit.

I wish that were the case, though it is almost true

Of course, this presupposes the boss-level boundaries which result from loving oneself.

I think I've loved myself too hard, too

In my day to day, I endeavor to be kind, and mannered, and engaging. When I treat “service workers” as the human beings they are, they glow. So do most strangers, each in their own way. And in those times I am able to engage with a child, they get my full attention (and I know that’s marked down as surplus on account of the ADHD). I will also get down on their level, and then after I try to keep a straight face when I get back up.

My road in life has been one of learning balance and moderation

(I don't drink)

 

[aeon]

(I don't drink)

Last time I had alcohol was late spring 2023. Two fruit ales resulted in a four-hour severe hypoglycemia that really did me in.

I Don’t Miss It,
Ian

 

[Wyote]

Last time I had alcohol was late spring 2023. Two fruit ales resulted in a four-hour severe hypoglycemia that really did me in.

I Don’t Miss It,
Ian

I've only been drunk a handful of times in my life.
I will happily share a beer, whiskey or glass of wine with a close friend if it is meaningful.
But that is rare and pretty much all that I ever consume.
Last year I had a couple of shots of Gentleman Jack with my family, in my great Uncle's honor, post-funeral.

 

[Asa]

You can't go wrong defaulting to kindness

This is supposed to be the point of etiquette. Using it as a weapon is snobbery.

Unless someone is purposely being rude to you, the objective is to make people feel comfortable and to be courteous and kind.

... I'm just saying this again because people think etiquette is about protocol, making people look bad, embarrassing people, snobbery, etc. People who do that are jerks.

 

[Matty]

This is supposed to be the point of etiquette. Using it as a weapon is snobbery.

Unless someone is purposely being rude to you, the objective is to make people feel comfortable and to be courteous and kind.

... I'm just saying this again because people think etiquette is about protocol, making people look bad, embarrassing people, snobbery, etc. People who do that are jerks.

People who ignore etiquette are usually rude and up themselves.
Queue cutters, soup slurpers, cough-in-your-face people, bare feet on plane people, loud in front of women belchers, etc are generally all assholes. I've never actually seen weaponised etiquette outside of fiction/movies, and those depictions seem to feature in vanity projects of celebrities trying to project some fantasy that they're part of the working class.

 

[Asa]

I agree about people who ignore etiquette @Matty.

Soup slurping is encouraged in some places, such as in Japan.


I think people see the formal side of etiquette, such as dress codes and choosing the correct fork, and feel like outsiders or like they'll be judged if they trip up. Gracious people don't judge for these things. It isn't that big a deal if a person uses the wrong fork. We're also not living in an era where formal events are common anymore.

 

[Asa]

Do not ask if you can ride a person's horse, or if your kid(s) can ride their horse. If you want your kids to ride, find a riding school or place that offers child-safe beginner riding experiences.

Depending on the horse, it is like someone asking to walk your dog out of the blue, drive your car if they don't know how to drive, sail your boat if they've never been in a boat, or fly your plane if they don't know how to fly.

 

[aeon]

Do not ask if you can ride a person's horse, or if your kid(s) can ride their horse. If you want your kids to ride, find a riding school or place that offers child-safe beginner riding experiences.

Depending on the horse, it is like someone asking to walk your dog out of the blue, drive your car if they don't know how to drive, sail your boat if they've never been in a boat, or fly your plane if they don't know how to fly.

Or asking to play a guitarist’s guitar.

Do Not,
Ian

 

[Asa]

Or asking to play a guitarist’s guitar.

Almost the same, except guitars aren't living beings. <3

Once, someone asked me if he could use my Nikon and dropped it on the floor seconds later. Don't do that, either.

...And if they let you use it, and you do break it, you have to buy them a new one --- the same exact model. This goes for guitars and everything else.

 

[aeon]

Once, someone asked me if he could use my Nikon and dropped it on the floor seconds later. Don't do that, either.

Thanks for the nightmare fuel.

The sound of crunchy, dislodged elements. Shards. Abject horror.

Jeesh,
Ian

 

[Asa]

Thanks for the nightmare fuel.

The sound of crunchy, dislodged elements. Shards. Abject horror.

One. Loud. POP.

...The death of a Nikon.

 

[John K]

Hush! You nearly gave my camera a heart attack!

 

[dragulagu]

lol Nikon doesn't die, it relives.

 

[aeon]

 

[HeavyNeuralPayload]

This was great!
That "hold the door" one towards the end - having been on both ends of that multiple times there's seldom any way to avoid the awkward/embarrassing element of it. I always aim to hold doors wherever possible without wanting anyone to break into that little jog he mentioned - which I know well, and is the same one I'll sometimes do when taking a walk and crossing a crosswalk where I know there's a car waiting. "2.4 meters" was great! I think that's much too short though. But it probably depends a great deal on location/context.

I think about this kind of stuff a lot. Like, at what point does my intended kindness morph itself into an unintended irritant?

 

[Matty]

The etiquette of neither interrupting, nor speaking excessively/selfishly is becoming a lost habit.

I get disgusted when people are cutting each other off, or when someone won't stop talking, preventing more polite souls to speak occasionally.