Etiquette

[Elder]

This should suffice until I hear back from fellow infjs.

How To Leave A Party Politely: The Art And Etiquette Of The Exit

How you leave a party is just as important as when you leave. Wondering how to get out of Dodge without being rude? We have just the right methods on how to leave a party with grace.

www.southernliving.com

 

[John K]

Hi @Elder - it sounds like you have already been to your party by now, but here's some thoughts from me. You need to know that I'm a bit fluey at the moment and it's a bit of a brain dump, so I hope this makes sense. The rules may be different between the US and the UK too - we are a more generally introverted society than you are.

I think there's two angles on it - one is what etiquette and good manners prescribe, but the other is what you need yourself for your own equilibrium.

As far as etiquette is concerned, usually the only people to thank are the hosts or the organisers - those who have put in the work and the resources. I'd normally do this myself on leaving - but then it depends upon the manner of my leaving exactly how. If I go while the party is still progressing for some, then I'll put my coat on then go and interrupt the hosts to say thankyou and goodbye. The interruption is flagged and given legitimacy by my having my coat on, and I've never known anyone to mind the interruption.

Mind you, that's if I'm leaving at time that isn't a bit discordant with the event - if I'm leaving unexpectedly early while things are still in full swing then it depends on the nature of the event. For a big one it's only courtesy to let the host know, thank them and give some sort of explanation - otherwise they may well be left feeling your departure is a criticism. Of course it might be just that, but then you have to find a form of words that explains the situation. For a small event, it's more difficult - usually onset of a headache or tummy upset are stock examples of reasonable excuses.

If you are leaving when everyone else is going, it's usually pretty straightforward - the hosts will almost certainly be saying goodbye to everyone anyway and will be buried in everyone's thankyous.

If you don't get a chance to say thank you when you leave, for whatever reason, a thankyou card or email is a great follow up.

If you are leaving when there are still folks staying on, then it's courtesy too, and only natural to say goodbye to anyone you have spent considerable time with. I'm no great party butterfly and at office dos I always got together with a handful of old friends and we'd while away the event chatting. Oh I'd circulate too, but that would be my basecamp.

With that last thought, there is maybe another etiquette issue to think about. It's quite possible for a few introvert friends in a corner to lose track of time and find most of the others have gone - it really depends on the event, but it isn't good manners to keep your hosts out of their beds LOL. For me, this has only ever happened with folks I already know very well - I usually run out of nervous energy quickly and need to escape with less familiar people, or those of a type that isn't easy for me to get along with.

As far as what level of small-talk is correct on the way out, it depends so very much. It gives a warm glow if you not only thank your hosts but say a little about what you enjoyed and why, and maybe ask them question or two about the event. I'd avoid open-ended questions if you want to get away. If they want to linger and chat, then having your coat already on does tend to limit the conversation.
Very often there are tactics you can employ. For example if more extraverted folks are on the way out too, then they and the host are likely to block the doorway nattering - this happens a lot with the church groups I belong to. It's then usually easy to just call our a thank you very much, etc, and goodbye, and squeeze past them without breaking any protocols. Use this one quite a lot myself.

As far as your equilibrium goes, it really depends on how you react to intense social situations. For INFJs, it's not just the unbounded extraverting that's a problem in many events, but the sensory overload too from an environment with lots of people and noise. Even when I've enjoyed myself at the time, I can have a reaction after an event that leaves me a bit high, shaky and drained, and I have to give myself time to recover. I'm not sure how much this is similar for someone on the autism spectrum, but I think it's really important to manage it. If you can, latch onto a basecamp of familiar friends that you can return to and relax with in between more general socialising.
Another way is to offer the host practical help where appropriate - tidying up and washing glasses, bringing food out, serving drinks, shifting furniture around, showing people where to go in a more formal event, etc. This too gives you a chance to wind down a bit and gives a less demanding sort of social interaction. In a way, this too is a show of appreciation to the organisers, who will certainly give you some appreciation back in return.

 

[Elder]

I hope this makes sense.

So much sense! I really appreciate the guidance. Even though the event is now over, I am very vulnerable to day after critiquing of myself. As I read, I felt like I navigated well. Yay! Also, there will be more events coming and this helps me plan.

Thank you!!

 

[Asa]

@Elder -- I've read different advice on party goodbyes. My favorite etiquette expert suggests discretely letting the hosts know you won't stay long, or that you plan to leave "soon" while you are thanking them for the event, but do not approach them when you leave, or otherwise announce your departure. Slip out a little while later as discretely as possible. The reason you don't want to announce your departure, or make your departure obvious in other ways, is that it will open the floodgates, and other guests will leave on your heels. If a large group of guests leaves with you, that could ruin the party.

You don't have to tell anyone you're leaving, except the hosts.

This doesn't work for small gatherings or dinner parties. In those cases, the host should give a time frame on the invite, and you should expect to stay that entire time.

John is right, you want to make sure you leave the party at a reasonable hour, too, so you don't keep the hosts awake...assuming you're not at an all-night rager.

As for small talk, I cannot help you. I'm terrible at this, too.

 

[Asa]

I have an interesting topic to discuss. How do we address rude people, especially people who didn't intend to be rude?

Though etiquette is usually focused on making others feel comfortable, we are not obligated to put up with rudeness. We also should not act rude in return or tell others they have poor etiquette.

Safety trumps etiquette, so if someone is making you feel unsafe, do whatever you need to do.

How I react depends on the situation. I'm sure you all know I have no qualms about telling someone to buzz off when needed, but there are so many situations where I'd want to err on the side of kindness with friends and family. I also don't want to assume that a person intended to be rude unless it is obvious that was their plan. A little patience and grace with people can go a long way.


I don't like how etiquette experts suggest we handle civil transgressions. Expert advice suggests confusing, passive-aggressive behavior such as staring at the person, or using a vague phrase that doesn't address the problem. Passive aggression is usually impolite, so I don't understand this choice, nor do I think it communicated necessary information. Being indirect is rude. So why are we being indirect about shutting down rudeness?

I can also think of an entire scenario where a person's (A) bluntness is mistaken for rudeness, and the offended person (B) uses a hint to convey this. If (B) is unclear, (A) may not catch the correction and wouldn't know what they ask was considered rude. Nothing is learned. There is a communication breakdown because (B) assumes that their way of communicating is universal.

"Thank you for your concern" is a standard-issue reply for when someone is nosey or offers unsolicited advice, etc. I'm good with that reply because it conveys, "Thanks, but this is where the conversation ends."

I'm less sure about how to address other kinds of rude interactions.

What does everyone think?


This reminds me of a time when I was canoeing. I had been canoeing for over an hour and was pulling up to shore to leave the pond. My form was not good because I was tired, and I was about to get out of the canoe so I was goofing off. A random man asked, "Do you want me to show you how to paddle properly?"
I replied, "No, thank you."
He was sooooo offended that I declined his advice. He took a step back and looked shocked. Everyone around me turned to look at me because I was blunt. I still think my reply was reasonable and that his assumption that I should let him invade my space and take up my time explaining canoeing was the problem. Maybe I turned down an opportunity to learn from a gold medal canoer but I doubt it.

 

[aeon]

"Thank you for your concern" is a standard-issue reply for when someone is nosey or offers unsolicited advice, etc. I'm good with that reply because it conveys, "Thanks, but this is where the conversation ends."

Yes, this is good, but when I have received a flagrant boundary violation from a total stranger (admittedly rare), I say something very direct, which is snappy, so certainly rude, but never attacking or foul. I like wordplay and language so a bit of color is to my liking.

My situational neighbor is typically pleasant and friendly, but in those times he proselytizes, I just listen, even when he says socially outrageous things. That’s because it’s of no concern to me, save that I find some of it interesting. There’s nothing to say to a true believer, regardless. My calm demeanor is typically its own kind of reply, which perplexes.

This reminds me of a time when I was canoeing. I had been canoeing for over an hour and was pulling up to shore to leave the pond. My form was not good because I was tired, and I was about to get out of the canoe so I was goofing off. A random man asked, "Do you want me to show you how to paddle properly?"
I replied, "No, thank you."
He was sooooo offended that I declined his advice. He took a step back and looked shocked. Everyone around me turned to look at me because I was blunt. I still think my reply was reasonable and that his assumption that I should let him invade my space and take up my time explaining canoeing was the problem. Maybe I turned down an opportunity to learn from a gold medal canoer but I doubt it.

So now I will show you my politics, haha.

He was likely offended for two reasons. First, you were a woman directly refusing a man. That got other people looking too.

Second, men are socialized to share and teach, especially down the chain of the sociocultural hierarchy, so there’s that as well.

Of course what you said was reasonable.

That said, I was recently told that I am a traitor to my sex (!), so my thoughts in this way are found unreasonable by some. Their opinion, and judgment, are of no concern excepting being laughable.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Asa]

Yes, this is good, but when I have received a flagrant boundary violation from a total stranger (admittedly rare), I say something very direct, which is snappy, so certainly rude, but never attacking or foul. I like wordplay and language so a bit of color is to my liking.

Oh, I like wordplay as well, and I'm typically quick with comebacks. I try to keep a lid on it. When I do snap back, it is usually witty and cuts deeper than I intend. For that reason, I try to keep my mouth shut until the person has pushed the situation past the limits. My SO laughs over this because he knows whatever I say is going to be surprisingly vicious. (I'm always surprised by how vicious others think it is, too.) I think this has to do with how I read people well, but I miss social protocol.
Everyone, "Asa, that was SOOOO MEAN!!!!"
Me, "I'm sorry. I thought you knew that about yourself!"

My situational neighbor is typically pleasant and friendly, but in those times he proselytizes, I just listen, even when he says socially outrageous things. That’s because it’s of no concern to me, save that I find some of it interesting. There’s nothing to say to a true believer, regardless. My calm demeanor is typically its own kind of reply, which perplexes.

I'm quiet in most situations like this, too. It's often pointless to speak up, and I may learn something... at least about that person, if not about the topic. I won't make enemies with neighbors, either. You don't want to make enemies with the person you live next door to.

So now I will show you my politics, haha.

He was likely offended for two reasons. First, you were a woman directly refusing a man. That got other people looking too.

Second, men are socialized to share and teach, especially down the chain of the sociocultural hierarchy, so there’s that as well.

Of course what you said was reasonable.

That said, I was recently told that I am a traitor to my sex (!), so my thoughts in this way are found unreasonable by some. Their opinion, and judgment, are of no concern excepting being laughable.

Right.

There is no way to win in this situation because if a woman says no to a man, she is one kind of person, and if she doesn't say no to men, she is another kind of equally disdained person. Through trial and error, I decided to be the "NO," type of woman. Being too passive and nice to men is more trouble than it is worth.

This reminds me of the dangerous figure in folklore that "seduces men to their deaths," but the entity is really just a beautiful woman standing alone, and the man thinks he has the right to approach her. - There is a meme about this you've likely seen. This monster trope is based on the idea that a man has the right to impose upon a woman, especially if she is beautiful, and should not suffer the consequences...and if he does suffer consequences, the woman is at fault.

In canoe's case, he was "just asking if I wanted help." That was fine, but I also said, "No, thank you."

 

[aeon]

There is no way to win in this situation because if a woman says no to a man, she is one kind of person, and if she doesn't say no to men, she is another kind of equally disdained person.

Of course, because no matter what a woman does, she will be judged lacking/wrong either way. Especially when the heat is cranked after motherhood.

Through trial and error, I decided to be the "NO," type of woman. Being too passive and nice to men is more trouble than it is worth.

And good on ya, and true that.

Unfortunately, so many have near-zero awareness of consent, and have bought into the myth of the “no.”

Stephanie says her mind, and I’m glad, but we laugh about her being petulant and me being a brat tamer. We both find humor in lampooning roles and then tearing through them. Also, because of our co-created space, she knows she is safe to disagree, refuse, and so on.

This monster trope is based on the idea that a man has the right to impose upon a woman, especially if she is beautiful, and should not suffer the consequences...and if he does suffer consequences, the woman is at fault.

That’s why I love the myth of the sirens luring sailors to their deaths on the rocks and under the waves.

As a child, I always thought the sailors drowned because they were stupid. Now I am older, and my thinking has not changed.

Best,
Ian

 

[Asa]

me being a brat tamer.

Hahahahaha. My husband wouldn't dare call himself that. I'm not really bratty, just headstrong, though.
I'm a good wife. IDC what you do as long as it doesn't cause harm to me or those I love. Just don't try to take away my wildness.

That’s why I love the myth of the sirens luring sailors to their deaths on the rocks and under the waves.

As a child, I always thought the sailors drowned because they were stupid. Now I am older, and my thinking has not changed.

Same.

 

[aeon]

Hahahahaha. My husband wouldn't dare call himself that. I'm not really bratty, just headstrong, though.
I'm a good wife. IDC what you do as long as it doesn't cause harm to me or those I love. Just don't try to take away my wildness.

Brat tamer comes from that certain personality test, and it’s only funny to say I will be that because I am as “permissive” as they come, to the point of encouraging behaviors so as to witness someone blooming and vibrant, as they would embody that.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Asa]

Brat tamer comes from that certain personality test, and it’s only funny to say I will be that because I am as “permissive” as they come, to the point of encouraging behaviors so as to witness someone blooming and vibrant, as they would embody that.

You are a gift, Ian.

 

[aeon]

You are a gift, Ian.

Only of a kind may recognize another.

Thank you.

Nods,
Ian

 

[Wyote]

I wish I could say "no thank you" and get that kinda reaction
orange/not orange

 

[John K]

How do we address rude people, especially people who didn't intend to be rude?

Transactional Analysis is useful as a guide perhaps. As an intuitive feeler, you will almost always have a clear idea of what the other person is intending. A lot of rudeness comes in the form of a Parent transaction from someone - they are either scolding you or trying to coach you. There may well be a Child subtext too, particularly with scolding Parent - a flavour of bullying or social dominance assertion for example. When we are on the receiving end of this it's all too easy for us to respond from Child and attack the other - this isn't necessarily overt, but colours our response as an injured victim. Another way we can respond instinctively is with our own Parent - an attempt to force the other into their Child and withdraw and maybe even lose face with their tail between their legs. I don't mean to imply these are conscious choices, but ways we behave more or less instinctively.

It really depends very much on circumstances, but the way to keep control is to respond from Adult instead. The guy offering to teach you to paddle - maybe make a joke out of it, say you were just fooling around and can paddle well, and thank him very much for the offer. He may well have been mansplaining, but genuinely wanted to help. If he persisted and turned it into a dominance game, then you have already been nice to him now, and a firm no thankyou is in order then.

I find very often that the folks who are rude are struggling with inner problems - it's not hard to see these bubbling below the surface. They push them out onto other people and try and confront them there - we probably all do this a little. I find it helps to discharge my resentment when I realise what's going on. Of course then there are the arseholes who get a kick out of social ascendency games - kick is probably the right response there once it's clear what they are.

But I'm no practical expert in any of this - I can trot out some of the theory, but it all goes out the window in many real situations I get into LOL. It helps when it's an ongoing relationship because I can reflect, work out what's going on then adapt to it. My golden rule is to aim at an Adult rather than Child or Parent response to rudeness in Transactional Analysis terms.

 

[Wyote]

I think there are some circumstances where being indirect is helpful/better but the delivery of it has to be completely understood.
It only works when the intent is understood by all parties involved.
And usually etiquette is being used around people we don't necessarily know all that well.
Hence the problem/mismatch.

Edit: Yeah and what @John K said

 

[niar]

I also see etiquette as less superficial than what most people think of it as, that's why I think it is [or should be] relatively universal. Having very narrow definitions of etiquette based on coulture or class is impolite, and politeness is underrated in my opinion.

 

[Asa]

I still need to reply to this conversation. I wanted to quickly add something, though.

This should apply to at least half the people on this forum: When you send someone your creative work (music, manuscript, artwork, poem, etc) send it once. Do not spam them. It's OK to check back after a certain amount of time if the agent, label, representative, gallery, etc, instructs that you may do this, but let a few weeks pass. Don't spam your friends and acquaintances, either. Spamming irritates people. It may get you noticed in the wrong way.

I've heard several different professionals say this recently. I experienced it the other day when a friend of a friend introduced himself and sent me a link asking me to listen to his music. I replied with a thank you and said I would listen. He then spammed me with between five and eight more links. My notifications kept firing, and it was him, over and over, sending me links. I also knew he singled me out because I've been promoting a friend's music recently. Given the unfortunate circumstances of this recent promotion, his efforts seemed tactless. My desire to be helpful and encouraging dissolved.

 

[Asa]

I also see etiquette as less superficial than what most people think of it as, that's why I think it is [or should be] relatively universal. Having very narrow definitions of etiquette based on coulture or class is impolite, and politeness is underrated in my opinion.

I agree to a degree, niar. the reason I'm interested in etiquette is that I want to know the rules before I make a misstep. universal rules are helpful.
That said, I also want indigenous cultures everywhere to keep their own etiquette. It's easy enough for me to learn the rules if I am invited to be a guest or travel to their regions.

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As for the rest of this conversation, I still don't know what to do about responding to rude people. Making assumptions that there was an intention to be rude isn't wise in many cases, but it is still fair to assert one's boundaries or to politely correct people or answer with a witty response. Automatically assuming the worst isn't the greatest idea.

One thing I wanted to stress, though, is that when someone is blatantly rude to us, we do not owe them grace. A lot of people count on their insults and rudeness finding a soft landing. Though the point of etiquette is to make everyone feel comfortable, we don't need to be that way with people who intentionally upset us. It would be a misuse of etiquette.


---

Today, another vent. lol

Please don't bring your dog to the home of another person with dogs if you aren't going to let them play...particularly if the dogs are friends and usually play together. I'd advise against doing this with young children, too. I do know that moms don't like it when visitors rev their kids up, and they leave or stop playing before the kid is worn out, so the mom has to deal with a hyper kid and all the accompanying behavior issues. (I've read advice about playing a quiet game with the kid instead of, for example, tag.)

My dogs are under-exercised right now, and it is difficult to manage them due to my present situation, so they were bouncing off the walls when a friend stopped by with her dog. Even though she only left the item she borrowed on the porch, my dogs knew the dog was there. Just leave the dog home.

 

[Ronaldo]

In my experience, Japanese society seems to prioritize etiquette well above any other country I've been to by a large margin. Most of East Asia does for that matter, but Japan especially.

 

[Asa]

In my experience, Japanese society seems to prioritize etiquette well above any other country I've been to by a large margin. Most of East Asia does for that matter, but Japan especially.

I would love for people to share etiquette from their cultures and make this less Euro-Am focused. I hope members feel free to share.