Geo-engineering

Why are you supporting the oil companies, muir?

Its not quite as simple as that

As the guy from the MET office says towards the end of his explanation, one of the side effects of the chemtrails (spraying nanotechnology aerosols into the stratosphere) is that it will warm the poles

The big oil companies want to exploit the oil at the poles

There are vast untapped resources at the north and south of the planet. For example there has been an ongoing feud between the UK and Argentinean governments over the disputed falklands islands, near antartica. One theory is that there is natural resources within those territories that both countries want

At the moment the oil companies are having to extract oil from tar sands but that is not a very energy efficient way of getting oil.

They prefer to access oil that is easily exploitable whether at the poles or in arab countries where people only have crap cold war, soviet missiles to defend themselves with

The other factor is that the banking/oil cartel are now trying to push a 'carbon tax' on everyone so they stand to gain from selling the man made global warming idea

Now i'm not sure exactly all the ins and outs of that but i'm just trying to spark a discussion about the possibility of geoengineering and offering some speculations as to why that might be going on

I believe it is beyond top secret in that democratically elected officials aren't being told about it. I think the planes spraying the aerosols are being controlled by a level of the military industrial complex that is not subject to democratic oversight

It's very clear that the rothschilds are pushing the global warming agenda and that gives me pause to think. The oil companies and the banking houses are very well integrated....they're not seperate entities
 

That's very interesting!

The argument goes that contrails disperse fairly quickly after leaving the plane but chemtrails linger; put your geek hat on and try watching the activity up there. You might notice how some planes trails disperse while others linger and even widen over time. Also sometimes the trail will suddenly start or suddenly stop as if switched on by a switch

I've been watching them and i've noticed the cloud thicken after planes have left a grid pattern of trails across the sky. I even saw a plane do a loop then carry on in the same direction as if trying to create an even bigger concentration over a heavily populated area (the weather then changed ie got cooler). I can understand a plane doing a loop to turn round, but why do a loop and then continue on its original course? Does that kind of thing really happen today with all the closely controlled flight plans?

After 911 i guess even top secret military aerosol spraying would be halted as well which would explain the results in the article you've posted there

Here's a wikipedia page about secret experiments carried out by the US military in the 1950's where they sprayed aerosols over the public without their knowledge. If they did it then, whose to say they wouldn't do it now?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_LAC
 
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The problem with the 8 committees is that they are all part of the corporatocracy. Its a little like asking the manager of a football team whether or not a goal of theirs should be allowed or not

I watched the video, but i'm not seeing much debunking

Here's an ex nasa scientist disagreeing:

[video=youtube;aEaFzhoS67I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEaFzhoS67I[/video]

The issue here is to what extent people are engaging in geoengineering and possible reasons for it
 
Prof Lovell is a prof of economics, not former Nasa Scientist

Professor Terry J. Lovell, Ph.D. is a 58 year old College Professor of Business and Economics. Professor Lovell has been teaching in College classrooms for the last 30 years. He has taught at Arizona State University, the University of Alaska Anchorage, Northern Arizona University, Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, and several online universities. For the past 22 years his full time duties have been at Yavapai College in the Business Computer Science Division. In that time he has been the Chair of the successful North Central Association Accreditation Self-Study, the President of the Faculty Senate and a continuing innovator and excellent teacher-both in the classroom and online.
With his great friend Quang, he speaks on the Patriot Network TV, via YouTube and enjoys an enthusiastic following across the U.S.
Professor Lovell is married to a lovely Registered Nurse and they are the proud parents of two children a boy and a girl. In his spare time his passion is woodworking.
and about those 49 (or was it 57) former nasa guys

http://www.skepticalscience.com/NASA-climate-denialist-letter.html
NASA Climate 'Skeptics' Respond with Science! Just Kidding.

Posted on 12 April 2012 by dana1981

Note: this post has been re-published by The Guardian and Climate Progress and cribbed by The Huffington Post Almost exactly two years ago, John Cook wrote about the 5 characteristics of science denialism. The second point on the list involved fake experts.
"These are individuals purporting to be experts but whose views are inconsistent with established knowledge. Fake experts have been used extensively by the tobacco industry who developed a strategy to recruit scientists who would counteract the growing evidence on the harmful effects of second-hand smoke."​
We have seen many examples of climate denialists producing long lists of fake experts, for example the Oregon Petition and the Wall Street Journal 16. Now we have yet another of these lists of fake experts. 49 former National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) employees (led by Harrison Schmitt, who was also one of the Wall Street Journal 16) have registered their objection to mainstream climate science through the most popular medium of expressing climate contrarianism - a letter. As is usually the case in these climate contrarian letters, this one has no scientific content, and is written by individuals with not an ounce of climate science expertise, but who nevertheless have the audacity to tell climate scientists what they should think about climate science. It's worth noting that when the signatories Meet The Denominator, as is also always the case, their numbers are revealed as quite unimpressive. For example, over 18,000 people currently work for NASA. Without even considering the pool of retired NASA employees (all signatories of this list are former NASA employees), just as with the Oregon Petition, the list accounts for a fraction of a percent of the available pool of people. This letter, as these letters always do, has gone viral in the climate denial blogosphere, and even in the climate denial mainstream media (Fox News). But why exactly is this letter being treated as major news? That is something of a mystery. Or it would be, if the behavior of the climate denial community weren't so predictable. The Signatories

Obviously this letter first gained attention because the signatories are former NASA employees. They are being touted as "top astronauts, scientists, and engineers" and "NASA experts, with more than 1000 years of combined professional experience." Okay, but in what fields does their expertise lie? Based on the job titles listed in the letter signatures, by my count they include 23 administrators, 8 astronauts, 7 engineers, 5 technicians, and 4 scientists/mathematicians of one sort or another (none of those sorts having the slightest relation to climate science). Amongst the signatories and their 1,000 years of combined professional experience, that appears to include a grand total of zero hours of climate research experience, and zero peer-reviewed climate science papers. You can review the signatories for yourself here. Contrarians for Censoring Climate Science

These 49 former NASA employees wrote this letter to the current NASA administrator requesting that he effectively muzzle the climate scientists at NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS).
"We, the undersigned, respectfully request that NASA and the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) refrain from including unproven remarks in public releases and websites."​
Since nothing in science is ever proven, apparently these individuals simply don't want NASA GISS to discuss science in their public releases or websites anymore. What specifically do they object to?
"We believe the claims by NASA and GISS, that man-made carbon dioxide is having a catastrophic impact on global climate change are not substantiated, especially when considering thousands of years of empirical data. With hundreds of well-known climate scientists and tens of thousands of other scientists publicly declaring their disbelief in the catastrophic forecasts, coming particularly from the GISS leadership, it is clear that the science is NOT settled."​
Ah yes, the ever-more-popular goalpost shift of "catastrophic climate change". The letter of course provides no examples of NASA GISS public releases or websites claiming that CO2 is having a catastrophic impact on climate change, and of course provides zero examples of these mysterious "hundreds of well-known climate scientists and tens of thousands of other scientists" who disbelieve these unspecified catastrophic claims. As is always the case with these types of letters, it is all rhetoric and no substance.
"As former NASA employees, we feel that NASA’s advocacy of an extreme position, prior to a thorough study of the possible overwhelming impact of natural climate drivers is inappropriate.​
As Skeptical Science readers are undoubtely well aware, the impact of natural climate drivers has been very thoroughly studied, and they simply cannot account for the observed global warming or climate change, especially over the past 50-65 years (Figure 1). Figure 1: Net human and natural percent contributions to the observed global surface warming over the past 50-65 years according to Tett et al. 2000 (T00, dark blue), Meehl et al. 2004 (M04, red), Stone et al. 2007 (S07, green), Lean and Rind 2008 (LR08, purple), Huber and Knutti 2011 (HK11, light blue), and Gillett et al. 2012 (G12, orange).
The contrarians continue:
"We request that NASA refrain from including unproven and unsupported remarks in its future releases and websites on this subject. At risk is damage to the exemplary reputation of NASA, NASA’s current or former scientists and employees, and even the reputation of science itself."​
If NASA administrators were to censor the organization's climate scientists at the behest of a few of its former employees who have less climate science experience and expertise combined than the summer interns at NASA GISS, that would really damage NASA's exemplary reputation. Expertise Matters

Let's be explicit about our choice here.
  • On the one hand we have a bunch of former administrators, astronauts, and engineers who between them have zero climate expertise and zero climate science publications.

  • On the other hand we have the climate scientists at NASA GISS who between them have decades, perhaps even centuries of combined professional climate research experience, and hundreds, perhaps even thousands of peer-reviewed climate science publications.
Amongst those individuals at NASA GISS are some of the world's foremost climate scientists. They include James Hansen, who created one of the earliest global climate models in the 1980s, which has turned out to be remarkably accurate (Figure 2). Figure 2: Observed temperature change (GISTEMP, blue) and with solar, volcanic and El Niño Southern Oscillation effects removed by Foster and Rahmstorf (green) vs. Hansen Scenario B trend adjusted downward 16% to reflect the observed changes in radiative forcings since 1988, using a 1986 to 1990 baseline. This is not a difficult choice for NASA Administrator Charles Bolden, Jr. We would not be surprised if he gave the 'skeptic' letter one look and tossed it in the recycle bin. Climate contrarians clearly disagree, but in the real world, expertise matters. The fact that these 49 individuals used to work at NASA does not make them experts in everything NASA does. If the issue at hand were another moon landing, then by all means, the opinions of many of these individuals would be well worth considering. But we're not talking about space shuttle launches or moon landings here, we're talking about climate science. This is a subject which, to be blunt, these 49 individuals clearly don't know the first thing about. To those who are making so much noise about this letter - the next time you are at a medical center in need of major surgery, will you go see a pediatrician? Or as a more relevant analogy, will you visit your neighbor, the retired dentist, and ask him to perform the surgery for you? Somehow we suspect you will insist that the surgery be performed by a surgeon with relevant expertise. The reason is of course that expertise matters. Perhaps you would be wise to consider that fact the next time a group of climate contrarians with little to no expertise publish another of these letters. As we suggested to William Happer, if climate contrarians want their opinions to be taken seriously, they should engage in real science within the peer-review system that works for every scientific field. That is how science advances - not through letters filled with empty rhetoric, regardless of how many inexpert retirees sign them.
Note that NASA Chief Scientist Waleed Abdalati has issued a response with very similar points and suggestions as our post:
"NASA sponsors research into many areas of cutting-edge scientific inquiry, including the relationship between carbon dioxide and climate. As an agency, NASA does not draw conclusions and issue 'claims' about research findings. We support open scientific inquiry and discussion.

"Our Earth science programs provide many unique space-based observations and research capabilities to the scientific community to inform investigations into climate change, and many NASA scientists are actively involved in these investigations, bringing their expertise to bear on the interpretation of this information. We encourage our scientists to subject these results and interpretations to scrutiny by the scientific community through the peer-review process. After these studies have met the appropriate standards of scientific peer-review, we strongly encourage scientists to communicate these results to the public.

"If the authors of this letter disagree with specific scientific conclusions made public by NASA scientists, we encourage them to join the debate in the scientific literature or public forums rather than restrict any discourse."​
 
Its not quite as simple as that

As the guy from the MET office says towards the end of his explanation, one of the side effects of the chemtrails (spraying nanotechnology aerosols into the stratosphere) is that it will warm the poles

The big oil companies want to exploit the oil at the poles

There are vast untapped resources at the north and south of the planet. For example there has been an ongoing feud between the UK and Argentinean governments over the disputed falklands islands, near antartica. One theory is that there is natural resources within those territories that both countries want

At the moment the oil companies are having to extract oil from tar sands but that is not a very energy efficient way of getting oil.

They prefer to access oil that is easily exploitable whether at the poles or in arab countries where people only have crap cold war, soviet missiles to defend themselves with

The other factor is that the banking/oil cartel are now trying to push a 'carbon tax' on everyone so they stand to gain from selling the man made global warming idea

Now i'm not sure exactly all the ins and outs of that but i'm just trying to spark a discussion about the possibility of geoengineering and offering some speculations as to why that might be going on

I believe it is beyond top secret in that democratically elected officials aren't being told about it. I think the planes spraying the aerosols are being controlled by a level of the military industrial complex that is not subject to democratic oversight

It's very clear that the rothschilds are pushing the global warming agenda and that gives me pause to think. The oil companies and the banking houses are very well integrated....they're not seperate entities

They're jeopardizing the entire planet so that they can easily extract oil from the ice caps?
That is absolutely ridiculous.

And the carbon tax is mostly going to affect factories-- it's not about just gouging the public (power probably will go up in price), it's also about gouging the corporations that you're so convinced are in bed with the government. The right wingers are upset because they think it's going to hurt the economy, which is why you get all the propaganda on youtube/across the net.
 
That's very interesting!

The argument goes that contrails disperse fairly quickly after leaving the plane but chemtrails linger; put your geek hat on and try watching the activity up there. You might notice how some planes trails disperse while others linger and even widen over time. Also sometimes the trail will suddenly start or suddenly stop as if switched on by a switch

I've been watching them and i've noticed the cloud thicken after planes have left a grid pattern of trails across the sky. I even saw a plane do a loop then carry on in the same direction as if trying to create an even bigger concentration over a heavily populated area (the weather then changed ie got cooler). I can understand a plane doing a loop to turn round, but why do a loop and then continue on its original course? Does that kind of thing really happen today with all the closely controlled flight plans?

After 911 i guess even top secret military aerosol spraying would be halted as well which would explain the results in the article you've posted there

Here's a wikipedia page about secret experiments carried out by the US military in the 1950's where they sprayed aerosols over the public without their knowledge. If they did it then, whose to say they wouldn't do it now?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_LAC


Planes will loop around for various reasons and not to put "chemtrails" in the sky. Normally it is because they are on "hold" because they cannot land or are waiting their turn to land (could be bad weather, emergency landing or anything else that disrupts the normal course of planes entering and leaving an airport. Mr. S says that it's unlikely to see a plane fly over a city and do a 360 leaving, but they can be put into a holding pattern for what ever reason.
 
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Planes will loop around for various reasons and not to put "chemtrails" in the sky. Normally it is because they are on "hold" because they cannot land or are waiting their turn to land (could be bad weather, emergency landing or anything else that disrupts the normal course of planes entering and leaving an airport. Mr. S says that it's unlikely to see a plane fly over a city and do a 360 leaving, but they can be put into a holding pattern for what ever reason.

The weather was perfect, until they put the chemtrail across the sky then it deteriorated. This wasn't above a city it was above a town that doesn't have an airport. The loop didn't take very long at all to do, so it didn't seem like they were trying to kill time
 
They're jeopardizing the entire planet so that they can easily extract oil from the ice caps?
That is absolutely ridiculous.

And the carbon tax is mostly going to affect factories-- it's not about just gouging the public (power probably will go up in price), it's also about gouging the corporations that you're so convinced are in bed with the government. The right wingers are upset because they think it's going to hurt the economy, which is why you get all the propaganda on youtube/across the net.

No the theory is that they are doing it to pave the way to global government. The world is going to face a problem of such magnitude (created by them) that the only thing that can save us (they will claim) is global government

I'm not talking about all the 'corporations' i'm talking about certain people who are behind certain corporations but yeah they don't care about corporations outwith their control because those would be competitors
 
The weather was perfect, until they put the chemtrail across the sky then it deteriorated. This wasn't above a city it was above a town that doesn't have an airport. The loop didn't take very long at all to do, so it didn't seem like they were trying to kill time

Ok, but do you understand that when an airplane needs to make an emergency landing to the nearest airport that all other aircraft is put in a holding tank (that are supposed to land at that same time)?

Take a look at another aspect. Unless these supposed "chemtrails" are being added to military craft, I honestly do not see how a civilian industry would permit additives to their exhaust system. Why? Well first it puts the passengers at risk of being harmed by toxins. LAWSUITS!!! Any industry would stupid to allow a liability against them.

I think this subject is a whole lot of nothing. :)
 
Ok, but do you understand that when an airplane needs to make an emergency landing to the nearest airport that all other aircraft is put in a holding tank (that are supposed to land at that same time)?

Take a look at another aspect. Unless these supposed "chemtrails" are being added to military craft, I honestly do not see how a civilian industry would permit additives to their exhaust system. Why? Well first it puts the passengers at risk of being harmed by toxins. LAWSUITS!!! Any industry would stupid to allow a liability against them.

I think this subject is a whole lot of nothing. :)

Well yes exactly...it is military aircraft

The commercial airliners are putting out contrails that disperse quickly, the chemtrails are the ones that take a long time to disperse

I posted a clip earlier in this thread that showed a haulage company plane filming military planes spraying; the planes were not announced through air traffic control

I'll post it again below:

It starts at 4:27

[video=youtube;2LqZ-bCSejs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LqZ-bCSejs&feature=player_embedded#at=270[/video]
 
i'm glad i'll be dead soon. between the climate conspiracies and the aliens invading, not to mention the genetically altered food, something is bound to do me in anyway.
 
i'm glad i'll be dead soon. between the climate conspiracies and the aliens invading, not to mention the genetically altered food, something is bound to do me in anyway.

There is another alternative.....everyone can figure out what is going on then take action on it and we can make a better world
 
There is another alternative.....everyone can figure out what is going on then take action on it and we can make a better world

Even if there is, you would never find out. It's like learning from a previous employee of TruGreen (lawn service) that the men who spray the yards are not allowed to mix the chemicals. Why? Because they were being heavily diluted with water. People knew about it, but there was no proof. No one cares to take on the government in this respect. You'll never get any answers.
 
[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]
yes it would be so perfect if everyone just did that.
it's not going to happen in my lifetime however. and probably not in my children's or their children's lifetime. humans aren't wired that way. we are wired to waste and cover up mistakes, not learn from them and correct them. look behind you and you will see that. will we ever be enightened? again, not in my lifetime etc...
 
Even if there is, you would never find out. It's like learning from a previous employee of TruGreen (lawn service) that the men who spray the yards are not allowed to mix the chemicals. Why? Because they were being heavily diluted with water. People knew about it, but there was no proof. No one cares to take on the government in this respect. You'll never get any answers.

I don't agree

I think this will gain greater and greater public awareness, will percolate through the media (both alternative and mainstream) and from there it will enter the public consciousness

I think also the 'climate scientists' behind it will push to have it legalised by the state so that they can do it and admit that they are doing it....they need to do it gently though so as to not alarm the public
 
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@muir
yes it would be so perfect if everyone just did that.
it's not going to happen in my lifetime however. and probably not in my children's or their children's lifetime. humans aren't wired that way. we are wired to waste and cover up mistakes, not learn from them and correct them. look behind you and you will see that. will we ever be enightened? again, not in my lifetime etc...

I don't agree with that; i think that if you look at what drives events in the world and who have been driving events in history are the power elites

The elites push their ideologies on people and they try to make people fit into ways of living which aren't in alignment with how people are wired which leads to lots of unhappy people

There are major shifts happening at the moment because of a mass awakening of the public consciousness; this inevitably is going to have effects on our world....things are moving fast and anything is possible

The people behind the system like to tell people that they are the problem. If a person goes to the psychiatrist saying they are anxious the psychaitrist has been trained to tell them that there is a problem with THEM so that they can be medicated

But the problem is with the system and that is the dirty little secret they don't want people to understand, because if people begin to question the system instead of their own feelings then change happens!

Things are more centrally controlled than a lot of people realise....if society can as a whole realise that and develop the self esteem to say to the few at the top 'the problem is not us, it is you and your rotten system' then that is a game changing shift in consciousness

Meanwhile the power elite will use their media and their psychiatric system to tell the people that there is something wrong with them....that they're disordered and must bend to the system (not the other way around). They want to keep everyones self esteem low so that they will not have the will to stand up for themselves

Is it the public that are secretly spraying nanotechnology into the stratosphere? No it is a small number of very sick individuals at the top of the economic tree
 
It's a bad mojo messin' with mother nature.
 
no disrespect in what i'm about to say i assure you, but i just don't believe that it's happening the way you suggest. therefore, i'm understandably not as alarmed as you seem to be about it.
aside from the fact that i know damned well that you are never going to eradicate power mongers from this earth, so you solve one issue to find another until the end of humanity.
unless of course we're all going to become enlightened somewhere along the way, which is the hope and dream of many i'm sure...as for me, and as i've mentioned, i won't be here. i'll leave it up those who think they can or will make a difference.
by the way, just for the record, i think the world is quite wonderful, warts and all. i've had a fairly shit life and yet i see beauty and wonder and perfection all around me.
i guess it's where one lays their focus.
 
no disrespect in what i'm about to say i assure you, but i just don't believe that it's happening the way you suggest. therefore, i'm understandably not as alarmed as you seem to be about it.
aside from the fact that i know damned well that you are never going to eradicate power mongers from this earth, so you solve one issue to find another until the end of humanity.
unless of course we're all going to become enlightened somewhere along the way, which is the hope and dream of many i'm sure...as for me, and as i've mentioned, i won't be here. i'll leave it up those who think they can or will make a difference.
by the way, just for the record, i think the world is quite wonderful, warts and all. i've had a fairly shit life and yet i see beauty and wonder and perfection all around me.
i guess it's where one lays their focus.

No disrespect taken

This is why i have in various discussions on the forum argued for a decentralisation of power as a solution to the abuses of power by the few

I also think the world is wonderful but i also know that there are people who are pretty bent on spoiling it for people

These people are pretty hollowed out inside. They don't feel any empathy for other people and seem intent on passing on the desolation that exists within themselves. There are many books on their condition for example:
200px-Snakes_in_Suits_When_Psychopaths_Go_to_Work_%28book%29_cover.jpg


if the wider public gain a conscious awareness of the role these snakes in suits play in our world then we can as a society deal with that problem for the betterment of all
 
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