- MBTI
- ENFP
- Enneagram
- 947 sx/sp
Has the field of psychology failed men?
- Thread starter aeon
- Start date
Jexocuha
Cave Ghost
- MBTI
- INFJ
- Enneagram
- 4w5
In my personal view, I don't think the "world of psychology has failed men". The very notion is full of simplistic and prejudiced implications. What is the "world of psychology"? Are you talking about academic research psychology, clinical psychology, psychiatry, social-cultural attitudes towards the effectiveness of therapy?
If I understand fully what's being implied here, I'm lead to suggest the question is focused on contemporary social-cultural changes in how men struggle psychologically (or communicate and relate in society), how it is perceived and talked about in popular/common discussions about "men", and overall how it is different from the past(and what others in the past may have expected)
But I have a problem with the very notion of "psychology failing men", because it connotes that there's a general or obvious schism between, let's say, "men falling behind" and "successful social progress" being led by a society with majority of women benefitting from higher education, personal therapy, and socio-economic stability. To me this is, although partially true, is not the full picture of culture, society, the challenges of being a person in general today's world.
There are all different kinds of people, of various genders, in society and the world at large. I think if looking at this topic strictly from a cultural pov, I would say that much of the changes that have been an ongoing struggle for many different kinds of people, especially people who were under some sort of social oppression of some kind, are starting to become more widely acknowledged and addressed (versus dismissed in the past), the roles that were once assumed to be "standard", expected, and defended as "normal" are being challenged. And it's not because people "hate men" and are purposefully trying to make it harder for them, no, if you look at some stats, you'll probably see a spike in economic growth, health standards, and the opportunity-exanding effects of affordable, powerful, and ubiquitous technologies that change the social-cultural dynamics of today's societies. People who once could bank on expected or assumed privileges and with less diverse socio-economic competition, would certainly have a more difficult time adapting or getting used to challenges that weren't expected of them at a time. And this phenomenon can be seen across different cultures and different layers of culture with societies around the world right now.
In closing, I think the world of psychology, ranging from. the breakthroughs being made by neuroscientists all the way to the lowering cost/accessibility/effectiveness of internet-based therapy/counseling services, has not "failed"men. But I do think that a narrow section of popular societal views are shoved down gullible people's throats, especially from the mainstream media commentaries and pop psychologists on the internet, want people to believe that psychology had failed men and caters preferentially to women. I also think it has failed some men, specifically those who showed signs of dangerous mental illness but were not properly treated. And I think that some men fail to see how many more effective options of psychological treatment are available to them today, than in the past. If you don't like what you got from one institute or clinic, there are far more opportunities to be able to go seek another today than ever before.
If I understand fully what's being implied here, I'm lead to suggest the question is focused on contemporary social-cultural changes in how men struggle psychologically (or communicate and relate in society), how it is perceived and talked about in popular/common discussions about "men", and overall how it is different from the past(and what others in the past may have expected)
But I have a problem with the very notion of "psychology failing men", because it connotes that there's a general or obvious schism between, let's say, "men falling behind" and "successful social progress" being led by a society with majority of women benefitting from higher education, personal therapy, and socio-economic stability. To me this is, although partially true, is not the full picture of culture, society, the challenges of being a person in general today's world.
There are all different kinds of people, of various genders, in society and the world at large. I think if looking at this topic strictly from a cultural pov, I would say that much of the changes that have been an ongoing struggle for many different kinds of people, especially people who were under some sort of social oppression of some kind, are starting to become more widely acknowledged and addressed (versus dismissed in the past), the roles that were once assumed to be "standard", expected, and defended as "normal" are being challenged. And it's not because people "hate men" and are purposefully trying to make it harder for them, no, if you look at some stats, you'll probably see a spike in economic growth, health standards, and the opportunity-exanding effects of affordable, powerful, and ubiquitous technologies that change the social-cultural dynamics of today's societies. People who once could bank on expected or assumed privileges and with less diverse socio-economic competition, would certainly have a more difficult time adapting or getting used to challenges that weren't expected of them at a time. And this phenomenon can be seen across different cultures and different layers of culture with societies around the world right now.
In closing, I think the world of psychology, ranging from. the breakthroughs being made by neuroscientists all the way to the lowering cost/accessibility/effectiveness of internet-based therapy/counseling services, has not "failed"men. But I do think that a narrow section of popular societal views are shoved down gullible people's throats, especially from the mainstream media commentaries and pop psychologists on the internet, want people to believe that psychology had failed men and caters preferentially to women. I also think it has failed some men, specifically those who showed signs of dangerous mental illness but were not properly treated. And I think that some men fail to see how many more effective options of psychological treatment are available to them today, than in the past. If you don't like what you got from one institute or clinic, there are far more opportunities to be able to go seek another today than ever before.
- MBTI
- INFJ
- Enneagram
- 954 so/sx
Absolutely dead on.
Most things are complex but discussed from more narrow or singular lenses/perspectives, especially online.
Which is a whole can of worms itself.
Last edited:
Anomalous
Community Member
- MBTI
- INFJ
- Enneagram
- 5w4
The basic issue seems to be that psychology analyzes men solely for the sake of controlling or reprimanding their behaviour in some way, rather than to understand them or engage with them at a more compassionate human level. The proposition of a deeper insecurity or pain driving mens behaviour then instead more often seems to carry the connotation of an accusation or invalidation, similar to how you might identify a faulty product or a dysfunctional utility.
In other words, men are treated as if our wellbeing is important only to the extent that it benefits others and not ourselves. It exists seemingly to criticize us, not help us. To keep us in line and behaving as men should behave. Any expressed pain or struggle is interpreted as a kind of pathology merely reflecting our failure, entitlement etc.
In other words, men are treated as if our wellbeing is important only to the extent that it benefits others and not ourselves. It exists seemingly to criticize us, not help us. To keep us in line and behaving as men should behave. Any expressed pain or struggle is interpreted as a kind of pathology merely reflecting our failure, entitlement etc.
Last edited:
John K
Donor
- MBTI
- INFJ
- Enneagram
- 5W4 549
I don't know why I haven't picked up on your thread before Ian - very interesting topic.
I'm not completely happy with the implied dichotomy between male and female mental health problems and the character of the treatment available. For example, I suspect that if you present as suffering from a schizophrenic illness, there will be little difference in the quality of the care you receive regardless of the gender of your doctor. On the other hand, my wife has been treated by both male and female psychiatrists and psychologists, and to be honest they have all been B for effort, C+ for achievement. The male professionals have been rather more effective in fact, but with her problems they all seem to be flying blind.
So maybe if there is a problem it lies within a specific type of mental disturbance. I think the problem with generalisations is that it's really very misleading to talk about 'men' as opposed to 'women' in this sort of context. I don't mean in terms of gender identification either, but that within the term 'men' are an infinite number of variations of temperament - some genetic, and some through accident of birth and contingency. Some of us men will respond better to female therapists using talking techniques than men using some other technique, for example - I probably would myself if I ever needed therapy.
But I feel that the issue you raise lies at a different level to that of available therapy. If we are in fact able to generalise about certain sorts of men's mental health problems and say that they are particular to the male gender and not the female, then the type of help needed must be rooted in the cause of these problems. There must be many causes, but there are two that I think are probably pretty high up the list.
One is that so many boys are being raised without living with their own father - this is one of those crimes crying to heaven for vengeance, and for girls as well as boys. At least the girls have a role model in their mothers, but not so for the boys. We learn mostly as children by imitation, but if there is no-one we bond with who we can imitate - it's as though we have lost a leg.
Another is the change in the relationship between men and women (however we define them). At the moment, we are living in a time which is like the turn of the tide in a river estuary - the water is flowing down the river and meeting the incoming tide, and the water where they meet is chaotic and confused. Many men are being tossed about in those chaotic waters and are drowning. The trouble is that a lot of the media messages tell them it serves them right for being men - but this is bollocks because no-one actually chose to be a man, but were born that way. Of course many of us shrug our shoulders and try to adapt - for goodness sake, it's about time that women had an equal place in society. But there are men who just cannot cope without a clear male role model that they can fit themselves into - these guys are not inherently the female persecutors, but people with weak personalities who need a socially acceptable, off-the-shelf understanding of who they are and what is their role in society. There are female equivalents of this, but they have a better time of it at the moment because they have acceptable choices available to them.
So it seems to me that if there is a problem in psychology and how it relates to men, this is a symptom of a more fundamental issue in society, which is what are the roles expected of men, and what support are they to be given in fitting those roles?
For me, it's all academic - I seem to lie somewhere outside all this. I've never really had any close affinity with either male or female social roles and have always felt violated if anyone tried to make me fit any of them.
RedInAK
Newbie
- MBTI
- INFJ
- Enneagram
- 5w6
I've often thought about this, being a woman interested in psychology I have found myself asking this question. I believe that men in today's culture are not only less understood, but blatantly bullied just for simply being men (at least in the US). It's really sad honestly. I'm sure that because psychology is an ever-expanding field with lots of research that there are people looking into this. However, this certain topic is not being taken seriously enough by the world at large. Just my opinion.
- MBTI
- INFJ
There are few honest research on this topic and the situation will not improve in the near future. The reason is social justice mob who have taken over the institutions. Basically you can only publish something when you blame the patriarchy, otherwise it will damage your career.
RedInAK
Newbie
- MBTI
- INFJ
- Enneagram
- 5w6
I completely agree with you. It's extremely infuriating and disheartening.
compliments to @thetinmen
there’s a new collections of articles called “the palgrave book of men’s psychology “
here’s also their work on anti male bias :
Do we? Thoughts?
Thanks for reading,
Ian
Roses In The Vineyard
Well-known member
- MBTI
- INFJ
I look at that social justice mob as rats eating away at an decaying ship that will eventually sink as modern society continues on this path of cultural and demographic suicide.
Cait Takara
Newbie
- MBTI
- INFJ-T
- Enneagram
- 8w7
I got into an EPIC blowout with someone on Twitter who wouldn't allow men to speak about their experience in regards to coercive control in relationships or child custody issues relating to it on her page. Why? She was convinced and stated openly that "only men were capable of narcissistic abuse or are violent offenders".
Upon those words you guys *smh*...holy shit I was just cooked lol.
I thought it was absurd to prohibit males from speaking about the same problems they are facing when we're all here scratching our heads on how to fix the same problem. My stance on her exclusionary policy and why led her to believe I was another narc male.
15 SEASONS OF DEADLY WOMEN on ID channel and you're honestly going to stat with conviction it's only men that commit violent crimes?...really?...
In hindsight, I should've never even acknowledged her stupidity, and I normally wouldn't have. At that time though I was a week into losing and grieving a very close male friend to suicide. The last two relationships of his were riddled with female on male domestic violence. He worked fixing the power lines, his job didn't offer health insurance. So getting mental help out-of-pocket was a no go.
So, I don't know if you could blame psychology in that case, but I think making it more accessible is pretty important.
Upon those words you guys *smh*...holy shit I was just cooked lol.
I thought it was absurd to prohibit males from speaking about the same problems they are facing when we're all here scratching our heads on how to fix the same problem. My stance on her exclusionary policy and why led her to believe I was another narc male.
15 SEASONS OF DEADLY WOMEN on ID channel and you're honestly going to stat with conviction it's only men that commit violent crimes?...really?...
In hindsight, I should've never even acknowledged her stupidity, and I normally wouldn't have. At that time though I was a week into losing and grieving a very close male friend to suicide. The last two relationships of his were riddled with female on male domestic violence. He worked fixing the power lines, his job didn't offer health insurance. So getting mental help out-of-pocket was a no go.
So, I don't know if you could blame psychology in that case, but I think making it more accessible is pretty important.
- MBTI
- INFJ
- Enneagram
- 5w4
This tracks.
She's obviously wrong. Many wounded and abused women are hostile toward men in this and other ways. Women need their own space to heal, and I generally don't mention men in conversations that focus on women for this reason. Hopefully, she will get to the point where her POV is more inclusive. Women's issues are as ignored by society as much as men's mental health is. It takes a long time to recover from abusive relationships, harassment, rape, etc, and most women do it on their own or inside small support groups of women who have similar experiences, which aren't hard to find.
I'm so sorry you lost your friend. This is tragic.
There is a societal stigma against men seeking therapy or men showing "weakness" by publicly admitting to being abused, even though abuse can happen to anyone. Lack of access to mental health care is part of the stigma despite the fact that middle-aged men have one of the highest suicide rates due to the pressures and lack of fulfillment they face. It's also astounding that anyone working on power lines wouldn't have health insurance. I'm so sorry. This is definitely a case where society failed your friend.
Cait Takara
Newbie
- MBTI
- INFJ-T
- Enneagram
- 8w7
Matty
Permanent Fixture
- MBTI
- Intj
I recently spoke with a psychologist. It was a little unusual insofar as I didn't have an issue or problem to address, but it was just something my employer offers to pay for.
Obviously, nothing I say here can be generalised, even though I'll use generalising language.
I got the strong impression that psychology would most benefit people who are neither self reflective, nor self critical. This includes people who implicitly have a very subjective value or moral outlook. (People whose likes and dislikes are indistinguishable from what they consider good/bad or right/wrong). The psychologist often invited self reflection, reality checking, and considering things from both one's own selfish perspective as well as from other people's perspective.
There was a very noticeable absence of normative or prescriptive goal setting, other than what might be described as: "it's important to know how you feel about something, that it's okay to feel that way, and that your decisions don't have to be decided by your feelings, but it's helpful to be aware of them while making decisions."
I personally found the experience a little frustrating and a little surreal. Frustrating because instead of discovering new things about myself, the prompting mostly resulted in self disclosure. Surreal because I ended up sharing a lot of thoughts I'd never share because it would be impolite or contextually inappropriate to do so with a stranger.
In retrospect, I find myself chuckling a bit at the things I said to a female stranger, thinking the psychologist's room is such a weirdly consequence free zone.
Comparing the experience at the psychologist with going to confession at my local catholic church, confession, unlike counselling, does deal with explicitly moral self examination and doesn't step back from the sense that how one feels can very much become an obstacle to good decisions. Both confession and counselling invite self reflection and awareness of one's feelings, but whereas a psychologist will encourage one to take one's feelings into account when decision making, a priest will more prescriptively warn that some feelings ought not colour one's decision making. For example, if I feel intense dislike towards a co-worker, the psychologist encourages me to be aware of my dislike when dealing with him; whereas the priest will advise that I must not allow my dislike of the co-worker to bias my treatment towards him negatively, and that instead I should seek to treat the people I dislike exceptionally favourably. (Of course the distinction between personal and professional decisions is understood).
Finally, counselling and confession also seem to differ in terms of "closure." The psychologist very much conveyed a sense of a continuing self awareness and implementation, whereas confession seems to do that as well, but additionally brings closure to past regrets, unrealised chances to be a better person, and the sense of not being well within the notion of what is good.
I walked away from my hour long session with a psychologist will the sense: "that was weird, but okay", with the only closure being "our time is up". When I walk out of the confessional, the sense is quite different: "that was embarrassing, but I feel right with God, and resolved to be a better person this week." Absolution marks a very clear point where the past is the past, and the future is is fresh.
How all this relates to the thread topic... well, perhaps psychology doesn't even offer a solution to men's problems, but just a better self understanding of one's problems. That in itself seems like a prerequisite for addressing problems. For many people a psychologist might be very helpful in coming to know oneself and one's limitations, but I don't think they are absolutely necessary, because they mostly ask questions, without giving answers.
Obviously, nothing I say here can be generalised, even though I'll use generalising language.
I got the strong impression that psychology would most benefit people who are neither self reflective, nor self critical. This includes people who implicitly have a very subjective value or moral outlook. (People whose likes and dislikes are indistinguishable from what they consider good/bad or right/wrong). The psychologist often invited self reflection, reality checking, and considering things from both one's own selfish perspective as well as from other people's perspective.
There was a very noticeable absence of normative or prescriptive goal setting, other than what might be described as: "it's important to know how you feel about something, that it's okay to feel that way, and that your decisions don't have to be decided by your feelings, but it's helpful to be aware of them while making decisions."
I personally found the experience a little frustrating and a little surreal. Frustrating because instead of discovering new things about myself, the prompting mostly resulted in self disclosure. Surreal because I ended up sharing a lot of thoughts I'd never share because it would be impolite or contextually inappropriate to do so with a stranger.
In retrospect, I find myself chuckling a bit at the things I said to a female stranger, thinking the psychologist's room is such a weirdly consequence free zone.
Comparing the experience at the psychologist with going to confession at my local catholic church, confession, unlike counselling, does deal with explicitly moral self examination and doesn't step back from the sense that how one feels can very much become an obstacle to good decisions. Both confession and counselling invite self reflection and awareness of one's feelings, but whereas a psychologist will encourage one to take one's feelings into account when decision making, a priest will more prescriptively warn that some feelings ought not colour one's decision making. For example, if I feel intense dislike towards a co-worker, the psychologist encourages me to be aware of my dislike when dealing with him; whereas the priest will advise that I must not allow my dislike of the co-worker to bias my treatment towards him negatively, and that instead I should seek to treat the people I dislike exceptionally favourably. (Of course the distinction between personal and professional decisions is understood).
Finally, counselling and confession also seem to differ in terms of "closure." The psychologist very much conveyed a sense of a continuing self awareness and implementation, whereas confession seems to do that as well, but additionally brings closure to past regrets, unrealised chances to be a better person, and the sense of not being well within the notion of what is good.
I walked away from my hour long session with a psychologist will the sense: "that was weird, but okay", with the only closure being "our time is up". When I walk out of the confessional, the sense is quite different: "that was embarrassing, but I feel right with God, and resolved to be a better person this week." Absolution marks a very clear point where the past is the past, and the future is is fresh.
How all this relates to the thread topic... well, perhaps psychology doesn't even offer a solution to men's problems, but just a better self understanding of one's problems. That in itself seems like a prerequisite for addressing problems. For many people a psychologist might be very helpful in coming to know oneself and one's limitations, but I don't think they are absolutely necessary, because they mostly ask questions, without giving answers.
The answer is pretty clear and was already alluded to in the OP.
When the field of psychology is dominated by women, which gender is going to benefit the most from this? The females.
We also live in a society that caters to women’s mental health needs in almost every way possible. However, when it comes to men, they are expected to ‘man up’ and deal with it.
Society responds positively to women crying – so much that many women now use it as a form of manipulation, and have cried crocodile tears to obtain a desired result. Men, on the other hand, have been conditioned (from a very early age) to believe that crying is both socially unacceptable and a sign of weakness.
And then there are the charities, agencies and laws that heavily favour or cater towards women, while providing only a fraction of support for men in similar situations.
Based on the above, it comes as no surprise why there is a higher rate of suicide among men.
Gender equality?! It was always a myth.
When the field of psychology is dominated by women, which gender is going to benefit the most from this? The females.
We also live in a society that caters to women’s mental health needs in almost every way possible. However, when it comes to men, they are expected to ‘man up’ and deal with it.
Society responds positively to women crying – so much that many women now use it as a form of manipulation, and have cried crocodile tears to obtain a desired result. Men, on the other hand, have been conditioned (from a very early age) to believe that crying is both socially unacceptable and a sign of weakness.
And then there are the charities, agencies and laws that heavily favour or cater towards women, while providing only a fraction of support for men in similar situations.
Based on the above, it comes as no surprise why there is a higher rate of suicide among men.
Gender equality?! It was always a myth.
Roses In The Vineyard
Well-known member
- MBTI
- INFJ
Can really sum it up as women have sympathy and support while men only have blame and responsibility. Issues like this should come as no surprise given how poorly designed and maintained society is these days.
Roses In The Vineyard
Well-known member
- MBTI
- INFJ
Mouse Utopia
I just stumbled upon this, yesterday, by sheer chance...
While ‘toxic masculinity’ has been shoved down everyone’s throats, in the background, feminists and so-called experts have now completely twisted the definition of ‘toxic femininity’.
It no longer means women behaving badly but… women being victims (yet again). In other words, there no longer exists a female equivalent of ‘toxic masculinity’.
“Some uses of the term toxic femininity spread harmful stereotypes of feminine behavior while suggesting men as the primary victims of this—for example, the claim that women are naturally very emotional, manipulative, or gossipy.”
www.verywellmind.com
builtin.com
So, basically, only men are flawed and NEVER the victim.
Really scary stuff...
While ‘toxic masculinity’ has been shoved down everyone’s throats, in the background, feminists and so-called experts have now completely twisted the definition of ‘toxic femininity’.
It no longer means women behaving badly but… women being victims (yet again). In other words, there no longer exists a female equivalent of ‘toxic masculinity’.
“Some uses of the term toxic femininity spread harmful stereotypes of feminine behavior while suggesting men as the primary victims of this—for example, the claim that women are naturally very emotional, manipulative, or gossipy.”
What Is Toxic Femininity?
Toxic femininity refers to a rigid and repressive definition of womanhood, including pressures women face to display stereotypically feminine traits. Learn more.
5 Signs Your Office Reeks of Toxic Femininity | Built In
When gender stereotypes make your workplace unbearable, it might be time to move on.
builtin.com
So, basically, only men are flawed and NEVER the victim.
Really scary stuff...