Homosexual Marriage and Adoption

[Pristinegirl]

Okay well I subside. My concern is for no one but the childrens and NO my argument was not based on that as 'god says its men and women therefore we should obey'.

I am thinking from a point of view if I was raised with two same sex parents. I would not be strong enough to take it I guess but maybe thats me, since all of you consider me so wrong.

 

[Satya]

Okay well I subside. My concern is for no one but the childrens and NO my argument was not based on that as 'god says its men and women therefore we should obey'.

You are arguing that there is a "natural" rule that says only a man and woman can raise a child. And I said before, the objective evidence indicates that there is no difference in the development of children raised by same sex parents and children raised by heterosexual parents. I don't see what basis you have to argue either if your concern is for the children.

I am thinking from a point of view if I was raised with two same sex parents. I would not be strong enough to take it I guess but maybe thats me, since all of you consider me so wrong.

Have you ever even met a same sex family? If you are going to argue from the perspective of what it would be like for you, then I'm assuming you have at least some experience having seen it firsthand.

 

[Soulful]

I am thinking from a point of view if I was raised with two same sex parents. I would not be strong enough to take it I guess.

Do you really think so?
The way I see it is that the experiences we have allow us to develop certain skills and knowledge. Who we are now is a factor of our personality but also greatly influenced by every experience we have had up to this point. I think you would have been shaped by it along the way, so perhaps you'd have certain resilience or skills that your current life experiences didn't require of you. Your parents would also have been different, which could have played a significant role.

 

[J. Cardigan]

It doesn't harm me or anyone else in any way, so I don't really understand why it should bother anyone. As long as two same-sex parents don't consciously try to "warp" their child's perspective to theirs, I see no problems. Most homosexuals have a very rough time growing up with a predominantly heterosexual culture, so I'd imagine they wouldn't want their children to grow up feeling oppressed and alienated.

My mom is of the mind that homosexuals are out to feel up children. I haven't read the whole thread, but if anyone here holds that opinion, I'll tell you what I tell her: "grow up."

 

[NaeturVindur]

Ahh the rebellions I see where you are going, there has to be a start and someone needs to break through although my concern initially lies with the child who for one may be bullied and considered an outcast due to its parents. Also because the child grows up with the same sex parents, he/she will most likely have a distorted picture of what is 'the law of nature' and is likely to be gay himself. We need attributes from a female and a male perspective in order to have a secure self-image, don't you think? Not a femalish gay man as mother and a masculine man as father. At least that is what freud said

Freud said a lot of crazy things (ever heard of an Oedipus complex?). he wasd really important to the psychological community because of his methods, not his results. Children do not need a masculine and feminine role model in their parents. I know children of single mothers and of lesbian mothers, and they're happy, well adjusted, healthy individuals. And the problem of raising the child to be gay? 1) not a chance. The sexual orientation of the parents has nothing to do with that of the child (barring things like genetics, but thats not what we're discussing). If that were true, the converse would also be true with the same "princible" at work (homophobes raising homophobes). My parents are hardened homophobes, and loh and behold, they raised a gay son! 2) would that be a problem even if it did work like that?

 

[mayflow]

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census)
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes
85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes (Source: Center for Disease Control)
80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978.)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.)
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes (Source: Rainbows for all God`s Children.)
70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988)
85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home (Source: Fulton Co. Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. of Corrections 1992)

Satya et al. Mind citing your sources on your "objective" analysis' here?

I didn't find any objective census stats on the gay-couple's adopted children yet, but another idea may be to see how adopted kids in general fare?

 

[Satya]

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census)
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes
85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes (Source: Center for Disease Control)
80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978.)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.)
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes (Source: Rainbows for all God`s Children.)
70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988)
85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home (Source: Fulton Co. Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. of Corrections 1992)

Satya et al. Mind citing your sources on your "objective" analysis' here?

I didn't find any objective census stats on the gay-couple's adopted children yet, but another idea may be to see how adopted kids in general fare?

Are you fucking kidding me..."fatherless" homes are single parent homes! Ones where there is a single mother! What does that have to do with two parent same sex homes? That is a horrendous and completely disingenuous use of statistics!

Here is a peer reviewed article which states exactly what the facts are...

More than two decades of research has failed to reveal important differences in the adjustment or development of children or adolescents reared by same-sex couples compared to those reared by other-sex couples. Results of the research suggest that qualities of family relationships are more tightly linked with child outcomes than is parental sexual orientation.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118584105/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Your completely intellectually dishonest attempts to use statistics of children who were raised by single heterosexual parents as indicative of same sex homes is about as reprehensible and idiotic as it gets. The stats you cited indicate the difference between children raised by a single parent versus two parent homes, not the difference between children raised by heterosexuals and homosexuals.

 

[Soulful]

Just throwing this out there.

Is it that those kids don't have fathers in their home growing up or that they are single mother homes which in general = less money, perhaps mom constantly working and little adult supervision for kids, perhaps lower class neighbourhood, maybe less educated parent, more stressed out parent, less emotionally available,. etc. These are generalities and I don't mean to offend anyone or suggest that this is the case for all single moms and children of single mothers. But there is much more attributed to single-parent families (esp headed by a single-mom) than the mere absence of the father (or other parent) in the picture.

And I don't see what this has to do with gay parenting.

 

[mayflow]

Are you fucking kidding me..."fatherless" homes are single parent homes! Ones where there is a single mother! What does that have to do with two parent same sex homes? That is a horrendous and completely disingenuous use of statistics!

Here is a peer reviewed article which states exactly what the facts are...

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118584105/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Your completely intellectually dishonest attempts to use statistics of children who were raised by single heterosexual parents as indicative of same sex homes is about as reprehensible and idiotic as it gets. The stats you cited indicate the difference between children raised by a single parent versus two parent homes, not the difference between children raised by heterosexuals and homosexuals.

I tried your source link but have a difficult time thinking it is a legit census source since it gave me "cookies session" error, whatever that is supposed to mean. Anyways, on an intuitive level, this seems to me that you have lost handle (if you ever had it) on this being an intellectual and objective discussion. I saw what seemed like an attack towards Pristine girl before and now you call me reprehensible and idiotic and intellectually dishonest? I do NOT think you are being objective at all!

 

[Pristinegirl]

Freud said a lot of crazy things (ever heard of an Oedipus complex?). he wasd really important to the psychological community because of his methods, not his results. Children do not need a masculine and feminine role model in their parents. I know children of single mothers and of lesbian mothers, and they're happy, well adjusted, healthy individuals. And the problem of raising the child to be gay? 1) not a chance. The sexual orientation of the parents has nothing to do with that of the child (barring things like genetics, but thats not what we're discussing). If that were true, the converse would also be true with the same "princible" at work (homophobes raising homophobes). My parents are hardened homophobes, and loh and behold, they raised a gay son! 2) would that be a problem even if it did work like that?

Actually as Mayflow indicated, fatherless children are more likely to develope deviant behaviours. You see a father or male figure is needed for a child to be able to develope a healthy self image, the same way a mother is needed. See, the balance.

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census)
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes
85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes (Source: Center for Disease Control)
80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978.)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.)
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes (Source: Rainbows for all God`s Children.)
70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988)
85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home (Source: Fulton Co. Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. of Corrections 1992)

Satya et al. Mind citing your sources on your "objective" analysis' here?

I didn't find any objective census stats on the gay-couple's adopted children yet, but another idea may be to see how adopted kids in general fare?

Hahah I think I love you mayflow! ^^

You are arguing that there is a "natural" rule that says only a man and woman can raise a child. And I said before, the objective evidence indicates that there is no difference in the development of children raised by same sex parents and children raised by heterosexual parents. I don't see what basis you have to argue either if your concern is for the children.

NO SATYA I never said that they cannot raise children, they may be the best parents in the world. Although what I was saying from a naturalist perspective was that homosexuals are clearly not meant to have children by nature. A boy and girl is required for reproduction. Hence, heterozygous not homozygous.

 

[Satya]

I tried your source link but have a difficult time thinking it is a legit census source since it gave me "cookies session" error, whatever that is supposed to mean. Anyways, on an intuitive level, this seems to me that you have lost handle (if you ever had it) on this being an intellectual and objective discussion. I saw what seemed like an attack towards Pristine girl before and now you call me reprehensible and idiotic and intellectually dishonest? I do NOT think you are being objective at all!

The number 1 thing that pisses me off in a discussion are people who misuse evidence. So yes, I lose my objectivity when others have lost theirs. In fact, I'm still waiting for you to address my charge. What does stating statistics of single parent heterosexual homes have to do with two parent same sex homes?

This time I'll provide you the link to the PDF. Maybe you will be able to access that...

http://www.ru.edu/faculty/rboughner/courses/Alternative%20activities/Children%20of%20gays.pdf

 

[Satya]

Actually as Mayflow indicated, fatherless children are more likely to develope deviant behaviours. You see a father or male figure is needed for a child to be able to develope a healthy self image, the same way a mother is needed. See, the balance.

No, what mayflow indicated was children raised in single parent homes are likely to be less adjusted than children raised in two parent homes. It had nothing to do with needing a male figure.

Hahah I think I love you mayflow! ^^

I'm happy you love people who use misuse statistics.

NO SATYA I never said that they cannot raise children, they may be the best parents in the world. Although what I was saying from a naturalist perspective was that homosexuals are clearly not meant to have children by nature. A boy and girl is required for reproduction. Hence, heterozygous not homozygous.

Yes, in order to reproduce you need a female and male. That has absolutely nothing to do with raising a child though.

 

[Pristinegirl]

The number 1 thing that pisses me off in a discussion are people who misuse evidence. So yes, I lose my objectivity when others have lost theirs. In fact, I'm still waiting for you to address my charge. What does stating statistics of single parent heterosexual homes have to do with two parent same sex homes?

This time I'll provide you the link to the PDF. Maybe you will be able to access that...

http://www.ru.edu/faculty/rboughner/courses/Alternative%20activities/Children%20of%20gays.pdf

Sorry to stick my nose into your discussion. But I have input, it indicates implications to e.g. lesbian couples who assumably have adopted a child.

 

[Pristinegirl]

No, what mayflow indicated was children raised in single parent homes are likely to be less adjusted than children raised in two parent homes. It had nothing to do with needing a male figure.

Oh well then I appologize because I interpreted it being the case that of a child who is raised without a father. Like for example lesbian famillies. Hence, the statistics imply that as well!

I'm happy you love people who use misuse statistics.

Don't clame it is misuse of statistics, he cited sources well whereas in e.g. your case, the internet contains alot of blahaa.

Yes, in order to reproduce you need a female and male. That has absolutely nothing to do with raising a child though.

Well you see thats where you interpreted me wrong, I never said homosexuals are bad with children or that they cannot raise children well. all I said was that they are not MEANT to have children seeing as nature does not allow it.

Also I don't want to fight with you Satya, so I don't understand why you are aggitated and become like a madman.

 

[Black Swan]

Mayflow, I was sitting here reading your post with my husband sitting next to me (his parents are lesbians). And though I can see the connection you made between homes lacking a specific gender parent and children being raised by a homosexual couple, there is a difference. You have 1 parent vs 2 parents, that's going to make it harder to raise a child, regardless of sexual orientation. I believe that is why Satya was offended.

Satya...that was totally unnecessary... You are a very intelligent individual, and obviously full of passion... Even if someone is speaking in ignorance, there is no reason to lash out of anger, that's not going to make it better. I didn't read Mayflow's post as being purposely dishonest, it's a connection a lot of people would make initially, I'm not excusing it. But, not all of us have sat and reflected on this as deeply as you may have, as it is a topic near to your heart. If you want people to have understanding, you must show understanding and patience as well, people are learning things about themselves and others for the first time because of this forum. Being disrespectful, both ways, is only going to alienate people and then we gain nothing. I myself have stopped posting in controversial threads for this very reason.

Since I'm here already, and I can speak for my husband, sometimes he does feel like he's struggling as a husband and a father. He does contribute much of this to only being raised by two women. Whether that was a failure on his parents part or just not having a male role model, I'm not sure we will ever know.

 

[Satya]

Sorry to stick my nose into your discussion. But I have input, it indicates timplications to e.g. lesbian couples who assumably have adopted a child.

How? Virtually all of the statistics she provided were from single heterosexual parent homes. The don't indicate a thing about two parent same sex homes. And the actual studies of same sex homes indicate that children raised in them are just as well adjusted as children raised in heterosexual homes. That means all mayflow's statistics represent is the difference between single parent homes and two parent homes. A child raised by a single mother is far worse off that a child raised by a homosexual couple.

 

[Pristinegirl]

Since I'm here already, and I can speak for my husband, sometimes he does feel like he's struggling as a husband and a father. He does contribute much of this to only being raised by two women. Whether that was a failure on his parents part or just not having a male role model, I'm not sure we will ever know.

This was informative, purehearted and honest. I am glad to hear this input from someone with some experience. Your contribution is highly appreciated and I am happy to hear that your husband does his best to be a good husband and father =) Its a good day to be alive and I'm sorry if I came out sounding the least bit ignorant.

 

[Satya]

Satya...that was totally unnecessary... You are a very intelligent individual, and obviously full of passion... Even if someone is speaking in ignorance, there is no reason to lash out of anger, that's not going to make it better. I didn't read Mayflow's post as being purposely dishonest, it's a connection a lot of people would make initially, I'm not excusing it. But, not all of us have sat and reflected on this as deeply as you may have, as it is a topic near to your heart. If you want people to have understanding, you must show understanding and patience as well, people are learning things about themselves and others for the first time because of this forum. Being disrespectful, both ways, is only going to alienate people and then we gain nothing. I myself have stopped posting in controversial threads for this very reason.

You are right. Now that I see Pristine has made the same error, I can understand that people can make that mistake unintentionally.

And I apologize mayflow for my reaction.

 

[Black Swan]

:grouphug:

There's the Satya we know and love.

 

[Pristinegirl]

How? Virtually all of the statistics she provided were from single heterosexual parent homes. The don't indicate a thing about two parent same sex homes. And the actual studies of same sex homes indicate that children raised in them are just as well adjusted as children raised in heterosexual homes. That means all mayflow's statistics represent is the difference between single parent homes and two parent homes. A child raised by a single mother is far worse off that a child raised by a homosexual couple.

Well the emphasis lies on the fact that no father was present, yes single parent but again NO Male. Of course they may be as well adjusted as heterosexual homes, again, I am not questioning homosexuals ability to raise a child. Mayflows statistics represent information on children who were raised by a Mother (thus, no father, no male). Therefore it is to see that the lack of presence of a male will have an effect on the child. The children may be well adjusted but sexlinked - No. A child raised with 2 females will lack male attributes and behaviour usually arising from the father.

What error did I make?!?! I have not been ignorant, I have merely been trying to discuss the subject. Taken peoples input and reasoned around it. I have not drawn absolute conclusions, subsiding stubbernly, which an ignorant person would have...?