Homosexual Marriage and Adoption

[Satya]

Well the emphasis lies on the fact that no father was present, yes single parent but again NO Male.

This is why the word "fatherless" is a loaded term. The actual studies on same sex homes have indicated that there is no difference between them and heterosexual homes. That means that the statistics mayflow presented are not indicative of not having a father but only of being raised in a single parent home. If there were not studies of same sex homes, then she could make the argument that the home being "fatherless" is an issue, but since there are, and they have demonstrated that that variable doesn't have a significant impact, she can't make that emphasis.

Of course they may be as well adjusted as heterosexual homes, again, I am not questioning homosexuals ability to raise a child. Mayflows statistics represent information on children who were raised by a Mother (thus, no father, no male). Therefore it is to see that the lack of presence of a male will have an effect on the child. The children may be well adjusted but sexlinked - No. A child raised with 2 females will lack male attributes and behaviour usually arising from the father.

A single mother has infinitely more problems to deal with than a homosexual couple does. A single income, having to deal with all the parenting herself, dealing with the stigma of being a single parents, etc. Of all those variables, you are pulling out the variable, "no male figure being present" as what causes poor adjustment in her children. That is despite the fact that there is 20 years of evidence that shows that children from lesbian homes are just well adjusted as heterosexual homes. There is no evidence to support the assertion that the variable of "no male figure" plays any role in the adjustment of a child.

What error did I make?!?! I have not been ignorant, I have merely been trying to discuss the subject. Taken peoples input and reasoned around it. I have not drawn absolute conclusions, subsiding stubbernly, which an ignorant person would have...?

You made the error of assuming that single parent homes are exactly the same as two parent homosexual homes. In order to use mayflow's statistics, that is pretty much the assumption you would have to make.

 

[Pristinegirl]

This is why the word "fatherless" is a loaded term. The actual studies on same sex homes have indicated that there is no difference between them and heterosexual homes. That means that the statistics mayflow presented are not indicative of not having a father but only of being raised in a single parent home. If there were not studies of same sex homes, then she could make the argument that the home being "fatherless" is an issue, but since there are, and they have demonstrated that that variable doesn't have a significant impact, she can't make that emphasis.



A single mother has infinitely more problems to deal with than a homosexual couple does. A single income, having to deal with all the parenting herself, dealing with the stigma of being a single parents, etc. Of all those variables, you are pulling out the variable, "no male figure being present" as what causes poor adjustment in her children. That is despite the fact that there is 20 years of evidence that shows that children from lesbian homes are just well adjusted as heterosexual homes. There is no evidence to support the assertion that the variable of "no male figure" plays any role in the adjustment of a child.



You made the error of assuming that single parent homes are exactly the same as two parent homosexual homes. In order to use mayflow's statistics, that is pretty much the assumption you would have to make.

The only thing I have to say is that I get that you say this, but where is the absolute empirical verifiable data that you say there is?
Black Swan indicated that her husband, a man of lesbians, can struggle on on how to be a father and a husband (male). Although he does his best. That is again something strengthening the fact that a male is needed. I'm not saying that those children have poor adjustment but may have problems with their self-perception.

I understand the difference between a single parent familly and 2 homosexuals. Of course everything is different. 2 incomes, 2 supporters of the child etc. Hence still the same sex supporters and the lack of the other gender. The lack of a father is likely to cause the child to be uncomfortable around boys or on the contrary seek out to them instead.

 

[mayflow]

You are right. Now that I see Pristine has made the same error, I can understand that people can make that mistake unintentionally.

And I apologize mayflow for my reaction.

Apologies are not needed nor desired by me in this, but you are still saying (maybe along with Blackswan) that Pristine Girl and I have made errors here and have been ignorant here. I beg to differ on both accounts. I think we have each been reasonable and you are the only one here I see degrading to call others ignorant and error-makers and the like.
I cited the most objective census type info I could find on anything close to the subject, and offered ideas about looking up how adopted kids do in general. There really is no need to say that I or others are making errors here.

O, Also, If you would look at some more of my posts and my profile, I am not a "she."

 

[alcyone]

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census)
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes
85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes (Source: Center for Disease Control)
80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978.)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.)
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes (Source: Rainbows for all God`s Children.)
70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988)
85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home (Source: Fulton Co. Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. of Corrections 1992)

Satya et al. Mind citing your sources on your "objective" analysis' here?

I didn't find any objective census stats on the gay-couple's adopted children yet, but another idea may be to see how adopted kids in general fare?

If anything, what these statistics support would be making it illegal for a woman to be a single parent as when the father is out of the picture do 'those kids go bad'. Maybe primary custody should automatically revert to males then.

 

[lazyhappy]

OMG am i going to be come a suicide rapist who goes to jail cuz i dont have a daddy .

Lol honestly why must people put such stereotypes on gender? i've seen more motherly men then women before (one of my friends and the gay couple that used to live next to me) and i seen more fatherly women then men before (my mom). Must people need to look at it so black and white?

 

[TK*]

Lol!

 

[mayflow]

If anything, what these statistics support would be making it illegal for a woman to be a single parent as when the father is out of the picture do 'those kids go bad'. Maybe primary custody should automatically revert to males then.

That wouldn't help, I don't think. I mean some women will make great moms and some guys great dads, but for the most part the people who have kids out of wedlock or get divorced are probably not very good parents in any case. Some kids are going to grow up and be awesome people whether from "good families" or circumstances or not, but others may need better role models and guidance. Not sure of the courts and how they do it, but for the most part in the USA - there are just a huge amount of girls that have babies and have the daddies leave. This is emotionally and financially childish on both parts, but it happens continuously.

 

[lazyhappy]

That wouldn't help, I don't think. I mean some women will make great moms and some guys great dads, but for the most part the people who have kids out of wedlock or get divorced are probably not very good parents in any case. Some kids are going to grow up and be awesome people whether from "good families" or circumstances or not, but others may need better role models and guidance. Not sure of the courts and how they do it, but for the most part in the USA - there are just a huge amount of girls that have babies and have the daddies leave. This is emotionally and financially childish on both parts, but it happens continuously.

lol yes it was my mom that made my dad leave =.=. XD That bad mom, throwing out a drug addict who shoots up infront of kids :/... where did you get your sources on this? The fact that , "for the most part the people who have kids out of wedlock or get divorced are probably not very good parents in any case" and "there are just a huge amount of girls that have babies and have the daddies leave.". How does one know all the situations? Most of my friends have divorced parents... I think you are just taking information and molding it to your cause. Not to be a meanie. I do think kids need a rolemodel, but does it really matter what gender or what sexuality that person is as long as they are good people?.... >.>...

 

[alcyone]

Black Swan indicated that her husband sometimes struggles with how to be a father....presumably due to his lack of a male role model in his childhood.

However, I see this differently. I believe that Black Swan's husband has a better chance to be a good father than someone from a dysfunctional hetero childhood. He can make himself into the kind of father he wants for his kids. He doesn't have any bad modeling behavior to overcome. He never had to witness his Daddy beating the shit out of his mommy because Daddy was drunk. Maybe he is struggling because he is bombarded by the media's idea of 'what' he should be doing as a father. But ultimately I see that he has the ability to be whatever kind of father he wants to be!

What mayflow did was use statistics incorrectly. Fatherless did not mean that all (or even any) of those stats came from a same-sex female household.

You want to know about what life is like as a single parent? I can tell you that. Who else involved in this discussion has that experience?

I've been in the single parent role countless times in the course of my marriage to my MILITARY husband. We were seaparted for a year and a half after he retrained and I was left behind in Nebraska to care for 4 kids and try to sell our house.

One parent to do all the chores associated with kids, laundry, cooking, cleaning, school. And all the chores a couple generally details to one person or the other. Getting trash out, maintence on the vehicle, mowing the lawn, shoveling snow, raking leaves. We had a pool, add that to my daily routines....brushing down the sides, emptying basket filters, skimming out bugs and leaves and the occasional dead critter. Testing the water and adjusting chemical levels. Backwashing and vaccumming.

And in the background four kids to keep an eye on. Fights to referree, birthdays to plan, gorcery shopping....HELL ANY kind of shopping was a chore!

I did it for a year and a half and couldn't do a single job well. Couldn't keep up with a single chore. Couldn't give each of the kids the time and attention they wanted cause there was always three or four things I was trying to accomplish simultaneously. And this was all without me having to have some sort of job to provide money for myself. I can't even imagine how much more difficult it is when a woman is also the breadwinner as well as the sole careprovider.

Those statistics were a slap in my face. And they were a slap in the face to any mother who is abandoned by the 'man' in her life and left to do the best she can as a single parent. They are a slap to any woman who leaves a bad situation because of the man in her life in order to try and create a better life for her kids. It's not like there are guys lining up somewhere to raise some other man's abandoned kid. And having kids seriously cuts into any womans time and ability to date as well as limits the dating pool. Once again because generally, guys don't want to be involved with another man's kid.


I don't blame satya for getting pissed. I don't blame him for losing his cool. Hell, I've lost my cool right about now.

I recall watching a documentary about a gay couple who were allowed to foster and adopt a severly special needs baby boy. One of those baby's who were born addicted to cocaine and crack because their bio-moms were addicts and used throughout the pregnancy. These two men, took in a kid NO ONE ELSE wanted and raised him, loved him, cherished him. I saw this years and years ago. Probably more than a decade. But it left an impression. Gay couples who want to adopt, want to adopt because they want a child they both can care for and love. I'd wager that most same-sex couples are more aware of the need for a child to have a good gender specific role models in it's life and have friends who fill those roles as good as any average hetero parent does. I have yet to meet a gay man or a lesbian woman who did NOT have close friends of the opposite gender. Not saying they don't exist, but I have yet to meet one, or know of one.

 

[mayflow]

lol yes it was my mom that made my dad leave =.=. XD That bad mom, throwing out a drug addict who shoots up infront of kids :/... where did you get your sources on this? The fact that , "for the most part the people who have kids out of wedlock or get divorced are probably not very good parents in any case" and "there are just a huge amount of girls that have babies and have the daddies leave.". How does one know all the situations? Most of my friends have divorced parents... I think you are just taking information and molding it to your cause. Not to be a meanie. I do think kids need a rolemodel, but does it really matter what gender or what sexuality that person is as long as they are good people?.... >.>...

I was never implying that one gender or another is a better parent. Still, your mom did pick a drug addict for a spouse, before she threw him out and so maybe your mom wasn't really
ready to be a mom yet? I am in no way wanting to lay blame soley on either gender in this.
This is straying a long ways from the topic about adoption though. PS: Taking info and molding it to my cause? Just what "cause" is it you think I am championing here?

 

[alcyone]

That wouldn't help, I don't think. I mean some women will make great moms and some guys great dads, but for the most part the people who have kids out of wedlock or get divorced are probably not very good parents in any case. Some kids are going to grow up and be awesome people whether from "good families" or circumstances or not, but others may need better role models and guidance. Not sure of the courts and how they do it, but for the most part in the USA - there are just a huge amount of girls that have babies and have the daddies leave. This is emotionally and financially childish on both parts, but it happens continuously.

Well in that case then you've made a great argument to re-open orphanages all around the country and have any children born out of wedlock and all children of divorcing parents taken away by the State since obviously kids from 'fatherless' homes have a greater than 70% chance of being delinquents.

Since the percentage of kids who will make it isn't enough to leave it to 'chance', I think it would be better to just err on the side of the statistics.

 

[lazyhappy]

I was never implying that one gender or another is a better parent. Still, your mom did pick a drug addict for a spouse, before she threw him out and so maybe your mom wasn't really
ready to be a mom yet? I am in no way wanting to lay blame soley on either gender in this.
This is straying a long ways from the topic about adoption though. PS: Taking info and molding it to my cause? Just what "cause" is it you think I am championing here?

*twitch* excuse me? Shit, I wasnt planning on killing somone and becoming one of those statistics. lol jk jk

I dont know if you know this but people dont start as a drug addict. How do you know that my mom didnt marry a sober person who turned into a drug addict? you just cant assume...
*sigh*... i'm taking this personally now, this isnt fun v.v... I'm off to go on a different board.
And P.s. that "cause" would be proving that having a one parent upbringing/one gender upbringing is bad.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

FATHERLESS HOMES.

MOST OFTEN meaning the parents were somehow separated. The likelyhood is that it was the separation that's the problem, not the fact that the father is not present.

If the parents separate (excluding death of a parent), the mother is most likely to gain custody. The "fatherless home" is loaded because it is more likely that a single parent household will be one where the father is not present.

Also, anyone that knows the dynamics of a single-parent household in comparison to that where both parents are present...well, frankly, they are not as stable. One parent is trying to make all of the money; often times, there is more resentment in the household; divorce and death often effects children very negatively; etc. etc.

Those statistics can be effected by too many factors pertaining to the fact that the household is run by a single parent, or by the circumstances on how the household became fractured in those instances.

In other words, because they describe too many other static factors, they cannot be used in this circumstance to prove anything. In fact, those statistics are pretty misleading.

Get away from the fatherless household stuff.

 

[mayflow]

*twitch* excuse me? Shit, I wasnt planning on killing somone and becoming one of those statistics. lol jk jk

I dont know if you know this but people dont start as a drug addict. How do you know that my mom didnt marry a sober person who turned into a drug addict? you just cant assume...
*sigh*... i'm taking this personally now, this isnt fun v.v... I'm off to go on a different board.
And P.s. that "cause" would be proving that having a one parent upbringing/one gender upbringing is bad.

Or maybe my "cause" would have been to cite actual real census data no matter what it had to offer? I already said I firswt tried to look up stuff about gay marriage adoptions and if anyone can find any such stuff that I failed to find, let them post it? On a personal level, I seriously doubt your dad was not a drug addict before the marriage. If he wasn't, what drove him to it? I am not trying to be mean, but just realistic here.

 

[Pristinegirl]

I think that this topic makes everybody frustrated because PEOPLE don't listen to one another, instead they assume.

1. Like the statistics were never intended to be implied as 'same sex statistics' but merely statistics for fatherless children. = Children without a dad with a single parent mother.
2. This is not a gender issue, the statistics only indicate the importance of both genders. A mother may raise a child excellently, hence the lack of a male perspective will have persisting effects on the child.
3. Gay parents may be the most loving parents on earth as far as I assume. Although the question is on Homosexual '(marriage) and adoption not whether they can are good at raising a well adjusted child.
4. Black Swan knows her husband better than any of us, and nonetheless does he. So in his case it is to see that it can be hard to be father and a male figure as he never had one and was raised with lesbians. End of story. He said so himself according to Swan.

So does these point make me ignorant and quick to draw conclusions?
I don't think so and if so, please clarify for I am 'too stubbern' to see it for myself. I think that I am merely reasoning around information that is provided by everyone here and there like a puzzle sort of, on what seems likely and not.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

I never said you were too quick to draw conclusions. However, that set of data does not do much for this particular argument.

It was really easy to draw those conclusions from the Fatherless child statistics; however, further investigation shows that the data is too incomplete to accurately make good conclusions from.

 

[Pristinegirl]

I never said you were too quick to draw conclusions. However, that set of data does not do much for this particular argument.

It was really easy to draw those conclusions from the Fatherless child statistics; however, further investigation shows that the data is too incomplete to accurately make good conclusions from.

Oh I'm sorry I was not pointing out you specifically. We need to cheer up ^^

 

[gloomy-optimist]

I'm fine I wasn't that effected by this thread, actually.

I just wanted to say to get away from that set of data, since it is not and will not really help anyone's arguments.

 

[Ophelia]

Lol, it's times like these where I wonder how many people would be willing to argue with a large group of gay people protesting on the streets or how many people would be willing to argue with God or something both excaiming that they are right. I should right a short story about this...there is too much negative enery in this forum. It won't go anywhere in my opinion because everyone thinks their right exept me, I know I am right *smiles confidently* *uses feng shui to change forums energy* *puts dancing monkey there* There

 

[NaeturVindur]

Lol, it's times like these where I wonder how many people would be willing to argue with a large group of gay people protesting on the streets or how many people would be willing to argue with God or something both excaiming that they are right. I should right a short story about this...there is too much negative enery in this forum. It won't go anywhere in my opinion because everyone thinks their right exept me, I know I am right *smiles confidently* *uses feng shui to change forums energy* *puts dancing monkey there* There

I would LOVE to get into an argument with the christian god on gay rights. that would be fun as all hell, and I am now jealous of Satan. Also, the chi in here really needs some

there, much better.