How can we take it back?

Skarekrow said:
It is helpful in the same way any history is helpful…it helps us not make the same mistakes twice hopefully.
There were those who clearly understood what they were doing was going to be detrimental to those under them…like trickle down economics is now an oxymoronic idea.
Those in that generation were swindled for the most part, some people really thought that Reaganomics would raise all boats, and some were wildly successful because of those policies.
There is some generational blame that should be placed upon them, such as allowing our higher educational system to put people in debt for the rest of the lives….or not speaking up when the government tapped social security (and still does) back in the 80’s.
In many, many ways, the bulk of that generation, on purpose or not, allowed shit like banks and investment houses to be one entity where that was illegal before…and it was all done in the name of greed.
Just like the movie ‘Wall Street’, it was a perfect reflection of the mentality that anyone could get rich, and the more you had the better of a person you were.
This permeated my childhood with constant commercial bombardments on TV that continues to this day, designed to make you scared and feel insecure or unworthy.
Like I said, I don’t blame everyone…it was the times.
I still say it’s historically accurate to say that these detrimental changes to the US were made under the watch of that generation.
I could post link upon link to back that up…you’ve now taken one line out of context and expanded upon it because why?
Do you think that it is not so?
Did I sit there and curse the baby-boomers to hell?
Click to expand...

Wall Street is a good film.

I like Gordon Gekko. He was a honest type of guy. He did never hide his ambition to make money.

"Greed is good."

That eventually landed him in jail.
 
ImaginaryBloke said:
Thanks @Kgal ! :yo:

Ronnie was an actor and natural PR performer. He knew how to connect with people.

I am an ex-Friedmanite, so I also had a lot of "homework" to do. I fell out with neoliberalism after the second Iraq war.

But I did never really understand "how things work". INTPs are not street-smart. But somehow Ayn Rand did not appeal to me when I was a teenager in the 1990's. I was not completely helpless.

What saved me was reading about psychopaths. I read two books about the subject. That explains the behavior of Ayn Rand followers, and how business and politics works in the USA. It is also explains movie characters such as Gordon Gekko. (Not every businessman or right-wing politician is a psychopath, but many are on the psycopathic spectrum.)

And a big thanks to the NY Times. More exactly, there are street-smart people in the commentariat who tell people how the big world really works. :w:

The Economist is a right-wing magazine, but you can find similar comments that those in NYT if you spend some time looking.
Click to expand...

Yep.... understanding there was such a thing as a psychopath opened my eyes wide open too. I can see why they'd be attracted to being a politician with power.

:) Hey...it's cool to know someone else reads the commentary to get a feel for the truth.
 
ImaginaryBloke said:
Sometimes the cognitive processes get in the way of communication and understanding other people. I see that you are an INTJ.

Te is about breaking a problem down into smaller parts and then try to solve each subproblem. It is also about taking action to do things.

Ti is about understanding how things work. I think that @Skarekrow's blog is an attempt for himself to record and process information. (It is disorganized and impossible to follow subthreads, but that is none of my business.)

And then there is the Fe side to inform people and attract a crowd.

I learnt all of this on http://www.intjforum.com and I would never understand it otherwise. Those INTJs are observant guys.
Click to expand...

Point being, and how is this relevant?
 
the said:
Point being, and how is this relevant?
Click to expand...

I will ask the moderators to ban a particular subset of all rhetorical questions. :lalala:
 
Kgal said:
Looks like the Pope is stirring up that hornets nest we know of as The Capitol.... woohoo

[h=4]Pope Rejects Lunch with Boehner, Pelosi, McConnell, Reid: He will be Dining with the Homeless[/h]
We now know why the United States Congress absolutely did not want Pope Francis to come to America. He makes them look like the complete as*holes they are. Obviously, Congress thought Pope Francis would be honored to dine with them, and all their pomp and prestige. They were wrong.

Pope Francis says he didn’t have the time because he already had a date eating with the homeless. In fact, he is not only going to be eating with them, but serving them. The meal will take place at St. Patrick’s Church in Washington, D.C........ringoffireradio.com/2015/09/pope-rejects-lunch-with-boehner-pelosi-mcconnell-reid-why-he-will-be-luncheoning-with-the-homeless/
Click to expand...

I almost fell off my chair when I saw this. Lucky me that I did not get a concussion. :hurt:
 
Did you guys see this? I've long held the view equity amongst employees would bring better outcomes.

It's good to see this coming up to forefront of news! Marketwatch is main stream news! This is a loosening of the reins it seems.... :bounce:

***Revenue is growing at twice the rate it was before Chief Executive Dan Price made his announcement this spring, according to a report on Inc.com. Profits have doubled. Customer retention is up,...***

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-70000-minimum-wage-is-paying-off-for-that-seattle-company-2015-10-25
[h=1]The $70,000 minimum wage is paying off for that Seattle company[/h]


Published: Oct 25, 2015 5:38 p.m. ET


Gravity Payments, that Seattle credit-card-payments processing company that said all its employees would earn at least $70,000 in three years, is defying the doomsayers.
Revenue is growing at twice the rate it was before Chief Executive Dan Price made his announcement this spring, according to a report on Inc.com. Profits have doubled. Customer retention is up, despite some who left because they disagreed with the decision or feared service would suffer. (Price said he’d make up the extra cost by cutting his own $1.1 million pay.)
Barely any employees have left – although some outsiders, including some commenting on a MarketWatch article about the decision earlier this year, warned that employees could start putting in less effort because everyone is being paid the same regardless.

Perhaps not surprisingly, plenty of people want to work for Gravity. One who now works there is a former Yahoo executive who says she took an 80%-to-85% pay cut to take the job, according to Inc.
The company has hired an extra 10 people to handle the anticipated new business, Gravity’s vice president of operations, Maria Haley, told Inc.
Price, meanwhile, has invested another $3 million in the company after selling all his stocks, emptying his retirement accounts and taking out mortgages on two homes, according to Inc. (He told the New York Times three months ago that he was “renting out my house right now to try to make ends meet.)
“Having to depend on modest pay is not a bad thing,” he told the magazine, speaking about himself. “It will help me stay focused.”
Still hanging over him is a lawsuit filed by his brother, a Gravity co-founder and minority shareholder, that alleges Dan Price had previously paid himself “excessive compensation.” Lucas Price’s lawsuit isn’t related to the pay increases, Inc. said, citing Lucas Price’s lawyer.
 
the said:
as you may recall, I didn't disagree with the historical accuracy. It's just when I read these things over and over and do not see any action taken on the subject it becomes nothing more than blame shifting.
Click to expand...

I’m not trying to shift blame onto anyone particular, only trying to expose injustice where it exists…if no one realizes it’s going on, then no one cares and no one does anything - you are right.
I mean, THIS is what can be done via the internet, besides signing online petitions and writing e-mails to your so-called representatives.
There are a lot of groups trying to fight for justice, to fight to get money out of politics, etc. etc.
If it seems like I’m placing undue blame or just blaming people without the article also offering solutions (which many do offer ideas) then I will reevaluate my postings as this isn’t my intent.
 
Perhaps denying, getting angry, getting despondent, etc. don't effect an active, constructive path forward. It seems too much like wallowing in the past and can seem like envy of others in the present, without realistic plans for the future.

Everyone is at some level aware of the broad situation. If their response is denial, or trying to conform and get ahead within it - there's no point trying to change their reaction; they might as well try to get you to change how you react to the situation. Nor am I saying you should, or even could respond differently.

I think if things are going to change people need to get beyond their own emotions about the system and imaginings which might include exposing, undermining, overthrowing, etc. It takes a very short time to destroy a civilisation; but it takes a very long time to build one (or even a replacement one) - possibly a lifetime, or ten.

Much like the process of evolution, situations occasionally arise where one system outlasts the collapse of another. When the current dinosaurs eventually consume themselves into oblivion under the asteroid-impact cloud of debt, there has to be something viable which continues. If society is going to change as a whole to something more viable, then some viable pockets will need to already exist. Whether this means community based (independent of tax revenue) hospitals, universities (originally run by monks), etc., or barter systems, or whatever I do not know. But part of the difficulty for people like me, who are fairly well off after only a few years work, in listening to counter-culture stuff is that despite wanting to do something constructive, there is no VIABLE alternative at present. I'm sort of retired at present - just keeping myself busy to stave off boredom, awaiting middle-age. If there were an alternative to the two present approaches: playing the system game and getting snooty about it; or struggling with the system and getting resentful - I would want in. At present the only viable option have come across is becoming a monk and trying to promote monasteries that provide education/skill based services/training/education for free. I just don't know if I'm cut out for it, or whether it is realistic at all - but once you take personal gain and macro-economics out of an equation it involves personal poverty and self-sacrifice... and someone has to DO something eventually.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
Perhaps denying, getting angry, getting despondent, etc. don't effect an active, constructive path forward. It seems too much like wallowing in the past and can seem like envy of others in the present, without realistic plans for the future.

Everyone is at some level aware of the broad situation. If their response is denial, or trying to conform and get ahead within it - there's no point trying to change their reaction; they might as well try to get you to change how you react to the situation. Nor am I saying you should, or even could respond differently.

I think if things are going to change people need to get beyond their own emotions about the system and imaginings which might include exposing, undermining, overthrowing, etc. It takes a very short time to destroy a civilisation; but it takes a very long time to build one (or even a replacement one) - possibly a lifetime, or ten.

Much like the process of evolution, situations occasionally arise where one system outlasts the collapse of another. When the current dinosaurs eventually consume themselves into oblivion under the asteroid-impact cloud of debt, there has to be something viable which continues. If society is going to change as a whole to something more viable, then some viable pockets will need to already exist. Whether this means community based (independent of tax revenue) hospitals, universities (originally run by monks), etc., or barter systems, or whatever I do not know. But part of the difficulty for people like me, who are fairly well off after only a few years work, in listening to counter-culture stuff is that despite wanting to do something constructive, there is no VIABLE alternative at present. I'm sort of retired at present - just keeping myself busy to stave off boredom, awaiting middle-age. If there were an alternative to the two present approaches: playing the system game and getting snooty about it; or struggling with the system and getting resentful - I would want in. At present the only viable option have come across is becoming a monk and trying to promote monasteries that provide education/skill based services/training/education for free. I just don't know if I'm cut out for it, or whether it is realistic at all - but once you take personal gain and macro-economics out of an equation it involves personal poverty and self-sacrifice... and someone has to DO something eventually.
Click to expand...

I actually do things IRL that reflect what I post on here - there is just no point it flaunting it because then people really do look at you like you are snooty or something.

it seems you have the freedoms that money can provide and yet you seem utterly lost as an individual and what your purpose here is in this lifetime…no? Did I read that wrong?

You are correct that undue amount of anger, resentment, and frustration permeate our society - and you can see this thread in that light (which it is not intended to be), or you can see it for what I originally intended it to be, a source to shine a light on the broken bits, with a calling for suggestions on how to fix some of the current issues.

I however, don’t see giving up as an option for me, thanks.
 
Skarekrow said:
I actually do things IRL that reflect what I post on here - there is just no point it flaunting it because then people really do look at you like you are snooty or something.

it seems you have the freedoms that money can provide and yet you seem utterly lost as an individual and what your purpose here is in this lifetime…no? Did I read that wrong?

You are correct that undue amount of anger, resentment, and frustration permeate our society - and you can see this thread in that light (which it is not intended to be), or you can see it for what I originally intended it to be, a source to shine a light on the broken bits, with a calling for suggestions on how to fix some of the current issues.

I however, don’t see giving up as an option for me, thanks.
Click to expand...

My background is that I got into a line of work which was extremely regimented and demanding. At the time that kind of thing appealed to me - and I suppose that I was good at it. Personal development was obviously set back, but personal preference/expression/etc. wasn't really a helpful trait in that line of work. So I guess there is a bit of self time now. However, that kind of thing is probably too far gone now anyway - I mean, your mentality is pretty much set by the time you're 24-ish, so I'm not too interested in finding my place/myself/etc. It took me years to basically make myself redundant - and I hope to keep things that way in the many senses of the word.

My interest is in growing stuff. Literally, one of the first things I did with my new-found freedom was to cultivate a crazily productive garden - more because of satisfaction of bringing something from potentiality to super-abundance (a seed to fruit kind of thing). Right now I'm turning a wreck of house on a large isolated property from perfectly repellent to perfectly welcoming (again just for the satisfaction of bringing what seemed to have no good potential to something good).

Hobbies and time-wasters have their place - I'm not interested in a playboy lifestyle (bought a Merc convertible out of boredom, kept it 6 months and sold it as a completely impractical and frustrating waste of time, that made me angry when I saw it sitting there). What you do so aptly in this thread is to shine a light on the broken bits of society and its structures. What is apparent is that we're in a broken down sewer slowly backing up with shit. So, what I'm looking for right now is how do you either get the sewer working, or even make it something better; or where's the light at the end of the tunnel, so people can just leave the shit behind? I'm a problem fixer and operation grower - just need to know how to fix the bigger problems, or make them redundant, working from a limited sphere of influence (not a politician-type).
 
Flavus Aquila said:
My background is that I got into a line of work which was extremely regimented and demanding. At the time that kind of thing appealed to me - and I suppose that I was good at it. Personal development was obviously set back, but personal preference/expression/etc. wasn't really a helpful trait in that line of work. So I guess there is a bit of self time now. However, that kind of thing is probably too far gone now anyway - I mean, your mentality is pretty much set by the time you're 24-ish, so I'm not too interested in finding my place/myself/etc. It took me years to basically make myself redundant - and I hope to keep things that way in the many senses of the word.

My interest is in growing stuff. Literally, one of the first things I did with my new-found freedom was to cultivate a crazily productive garden - more because of satisfaction of bringing something from potentiality to super-abundance (a seed to fruit kind of thing). Right now I'm turning a wreck of house on a large isolated property from perfectly repellent to perfectly welcoming (again just for the satisfaction of bringing what seemed to have no good potential to something good).

Hobbies and time-wasters have their place - I'm not interested in a playboy lifestyle (bought a Merc convertible out of boredom, kept it 6 months and sold it as a completely impractical and frustrating waste of time, that made me angry when I saw it sitting there). What you do so aptly in this thread is to shine a light on the broken bits of society and its structures. What is apparent is that we're in a broken down sewer slowly backing up with shit. So, what I'm looking for right now is how do you either get the sewer working, or even make it something better; or where's the light at the end of the tunnel, so people can just leave the shit behind? I'm a problem fixer and operation grower - just need to know how to fix the bigger problems, or make them redundant, working from a limited sphere of influence (not a politician-type).
Click to expand...

I think that is really awesome that you have that financial freedom and you don’t seem to squander it stupidly like some.
I too love growing gardens and plants, my house is filled with plants, and my garden outside is still making vegetables even though it’s getting colder here now.
There is a certain amount of catharsis from fixing things isn’t there?
When my marriage fell to hell, I moved into this bungalow build in the 20’s, beautiful bones, but decades of neglect.
I must have patched hundreds of nails holes, repainted it all, retiled the bathroom floor, refinished the hardwood floors, etc.
I credit my time spent fixing that place also fixing the bits in me that took a hit from the divorce.

Yes, the sewer is backed up full of shit.
But the light that I see at the end of the "tunnel of shit” (lol), is the fact that money is so much a part of our political structure here in the US anyhow that it’s opening people’s eyes. They are starting to take an interest where they didn’t before, starting to ask “how did we get here?” “what happened to this or that law protecting us from bank failures?” etc. etc.
This election cycle is turning into a circus side-show, and it’s reflective in both the extreme right of Trump and Carson and the left with Bernie Sanders.
When folks like the Koch brothers and their other shell groups and super-PACs are spending and have budgeted $889 Million to influence the elections (publicly known anyhow) how can America call itself a democracy anymore? We don’t choose the candidates who get whittled down to always a Republican and a Democrat, we don’t have a popular vote in the US rather a broken system of electoral votes (which was clearly shown to be unrepresentative with the defeat of Al Gore despite him actually winning the most votes).
We now have a law saying “money = free speech” and our Congress for the most part is run by the groups of lobbyists for the various corporations that donate to the Congresspeople’s campaigns .
We have groups like ALEC who write write the laws on behalf of large corporate entities and many get passed in our country as laws word for word in some cases.
We have groups actively trying to suppress the votes of the poor and/or being an ethnic minority.
We have gerrymandering of our votes on both sides of the table and redistricting of counties to benefit one side or another.
Our supposed “freedom” in the US - we have the most incarcerated society in the world.

I would say, we are a sad excuse for a “democracy” much less the country that likes to go invade and spread it around like an STD.
It’s all these things though that are starting to get people involved, starting to show them, that hey - our media lies to us a good portion of the time.
I guess what I’m saying is - it is my belief that all the pressure building up in that line of shit is about to blow out the plug.
Like maybe French Revolution style…though I personally hope it’s peaceful.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
My background is that I got into a line of work which was extremely regimented and demanding. At the time that kind of thing appealed to me - and I suppose that I was good at it. Personal development was obviously set back, but personal preference/expression/etc. wasn't really a helpful trait in that line of work. So I guess there is a bit of self time now. However, that kind of thing is probably too far gone now anyway - I mean, your mentality is pretty much set by the time you're 24-ish, so I'm not too interested in finding my place/myself/etc. It took me years to basically make myself redundant - and I hope to keep things that way in the many senses of the word.

My interest is in growing stuff. Literally, one of the first things I did with my new-found freedom was to cultivate a crazily productive garden - more because of satisfaction of bringing something from potentiality to super-abundance (a seed to fruit kind of thing). Right now I'm turning a wreck of house on a large isolated property from perfectly repellent to perfectly welcoming (again just for the satisfaction of bringing what seemed to have no good potential to something good).

Hobbies and time-wasters have their place - I'm not interested in a playboy lifestyle (bought a Merc convertible out of boredom, kept it 6 months and sold it as a completely impractical and frustrating waste of time, that made me angry when I saw it sitting there). What you do so aptly in this thread is to shine a light on the broken bits of society and its structures. What is apparent is that we're in a broken down sewer slowly backing up with shit. So, what I'm looking for right now is how do you either get the sewer working, or even make it something better; or where's the light at the end of the tunnel, so people can just leave the shit behind? I'm a problem fixer and operation grower - just need to know how to fix the bigger problems, or make them redundant, working from a limited sphere of influence (not a politician-type).
Click to expand...

Skarekrow said:
I think that is really awesome that you have that financial freedom and you don’t seem to squander it stupidly like some.
I too love growing gardens and plants, my house is filled with plants, and my garden outside is still making vegetables even though it’s getting colder here now.
There is a certain amount of catharsis from fixing things isn’t there?
When my marriage fell to hell, I moved into this bungalow build in the 20’s, beautiful bones, but decades of neglect.
I must have patched hundreds of nails holes, repainted it all, retiled the bathroom floor, refinished the hardwood floors, etc.
I credit my time spent fixing that place also fixing the bits in me that took a hit from the divorce.

Yes, the sewer is backed up full of shit.
But the light that I see at the end of the "tunnel of shit” (lol), is the fact that money is so much a part of our political structure here in the US anyhow that it’s opening people’s eyes. They are starting to take an interest where they didn’t before, starting to ask “how did we get here?” “what happened to this or that law protecting us from bank failures?” etc. etc.
This election cycle is turning into a circus side-show, and it’s reflective in both the extreme right of Trump and Carson and the left with Bernie Sanders.
When folks like the Koch brothers and their other shell groups and super-PACs are spending and have budgeted $889 Million to influence the elections (publicly known anyhow) how can America call itself a democracy anymore? We don’t choose the candidates who get whittled down to always a Republican and a Democrat, we don’t have a popular vote in the US rather a broken system of electoral votes (which was clearly shown to be unrepresentative with the defeat of Al Gore despite him actually winning the most votes).
We now have a law saying “money = free speech” and our Congress for the most part is run by the groups of lobbyists for the various corporations that donate to the Congresspeople’s campaigns .
We have groups like ALEC who write write the laws on behalf of large corporate entities and many get passed in our country as laws word for word in some cases.
We have groups actively trying to suppress the votes of the poor and/or being an ethnic minority.
We have gerrymandering of our votes on both sides of the table and redistricting of counties to benefit one side or another.
Our supposed “freedom” in the US - we have the most incarcerated society in the world.

I would say, we are a sad excuse for a “democracy” much less the country that likes to go invade and spread it around like an STD.
It’s all these things though that are starting to get people involved, starting to show them, that hey - our media lies to us a good portion of the time.
I guess what I’m saying is - it is my belief that all the pressure building up in that line of shit is about to blow out the plug.
Like maybe French Revolution style…though I personally hope it’s peaceful.
Click to expand...

You guys have beautiful hearts.
 
#INFJSGardenTowardGreatness

I'm. So. In.
 
3 days.

[video=youtube;FoqvNB3fLm4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoqvNB3fLm4[/video]
 
That's kind of vague... If you made that one...you should at least tell people how/where to stand shoulder to shoulder with Anon. :tongue1:
 
Skarekrow said:
I actually do things IRL that reflect what I post on here - there is just no point it flaunting it because then people really do look at you like you are snooty or something.
Click to expand...

What do you do IRL?
 
the said:
What do you do IRL?
Click to expand...

Donate my time and my money to various causes I find important.

Am I on trial here or what?
Want me to scan my tax return, receipts and pictures in for you so you can verify it?

What is the point of all this @the ?
 
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