How do you feel about cat calling?

[54tjsioU]

I didn't actually correct myself.
There's a difference between involvement in a car accident and


Tones and mannerisms are incredibly important and valuable sources of information. I still believe they're highly subjective. Even our interpretations of plain text are subjective. But I think we simply differ in our views in the philosophy of science.


I stand corrected. I assumed you did based on your previous post.


The bolded part makes me curious. While I used some sarcasm in my initial post, which is arguably 'not appropriate', I believe your behaviour is much less appropriate. You made it personal. You made claims about me and now admit that you're deflecting and bitching about others. How is this appropriate? I perfectly realise that you don't appreciate my 'shit', but I think you could've worded it more 'appropriate'.
Yes, I realised a high possibility of someone taking issue with my post. Is this a reason to not post it? Not to me. I'm not afraid to hurt of be hurt in discussions and debates. Heck, I even think in a few cases it's good for a discussion to be slightly provocative.
Did you expect someone to take issue with your post before you posted it? If you expected so, we agree that even if someone might take issue we'd still post our message.


I believe that behaviour is inappropriate. I understand it better now, because you explained it, and that helps. Thanks for being honest.


I understand. I do care a lot about what other people think of me. That's why I am replying to you in a reasonable way to explain my point of view. It feels weird that you frame your judgements as facts if you don't know me


I agree, but I'm afraid that such a solution won't help you right now. And that's the solution I was working for. If we consider our daughters I think your point on education is very good.
That's what I missed in my second post (quoted relevant part below). I didn't specify that I was looking for short term solutions, while long term solutions are probably even more important. Education is the key there.

In that sentence where I believe you corrected yourself and maybe I'm not using the right word there, it's more of a back-peddle I suppose in you covering your bases, you said 'I guess' and you said 'I assumed.' Those words and that phrasing to me mean that you understand that that is not accurate and then you write what is more accurate. Other than that though, I'm sure we could argue about this for about another hour, is as long as I'm going to care for it, but this is how I saw it with the words and phrasing you used. You believe you didn't correct yourself or back-peddle, I believe you did, we should both just agree to disagree.

There's philosophy of science and then there is insight to human behavior. I agree we see the world way differently in what we think should be analyzed first or analyzed at all. That's just a difference in us; we don't have to be the same and the fact that we aren't makes life more interesting.

Nope, it's not appropriate of me and I understand that and it's something that I have to deal with and I think it sucks. The only way that I know to let others know that I'm not being rational and I'm getting hurt too easily is by telling them that I'm PMSing and I am very very appreciative that you could understand that. I am more than sure that in a couple days I'll feel real bad for all of this and I might apologize to the people who I believe deserve an apology and it's a shitty thing that I have to deal with. Try to lock myself in my room to have less collateral damage and then I get on the internet so that doesn't work lol... You want to find a fix to help women find a cure for PMS. I think everybody would be happier if bitches didn't go crazy every once and a while.

I don't know if there's any solution for cat calling right now. I think some things that would help is if those times when men are walking with women and hear those women get cat called have those men stick up for those women. But then again how many of those times are going to result in fist fights between the two. You already know that cat callers are ignorant, are they also angry and horny? It's all about picking your battles and at the same time understanding which ones you can win. I was at a friends graduation a long, long time ago and there were two women having a heated argument. Now I was pretty happy and pretty giddy and I watched them argue and from their tone and their stature and what kinds of things they were saying I knew that if I went up to them I could stop their fighting and I did. I went up to them like a stoner and told them that 'today's such a beautiful day man, just, just look at the flowers' and they laughed and they forgot their angst with each other and they laughed together at how weird I was and how weird that situation was to them. I directed their bitching and moaning at each other to laughing with each other and that's where I believe tone and behavior makes a huge difference and really does matter. A woman being cat called has to make a split second decision of, 'Is this person going to hurt me? Is this person going to expect more from me if I say good morning back?' And that's what is cycling through their minds during these times so more often than not keeping your head low and not saying anything and just get out of there as quick as you can can be the best solution. I don't know that there's a real quick fix. It's something that has happened for forever and I believe will continue to happen so long as there are ignorant people in the world.

 

[Erlian]

In that sentence where I believe you corrected yourself and maybe I'm not using the right word there, it's more of a back-peddle I suppose in you covering your bases, you said 'I guess' and you said 'I assumed.' Those words and that phrasing to me mean that you understand that that is not accurate and then you write what is more accurate. Other than that though, I'm sure we could argue about this for about another hour, is as long as I'm going to care for it, but this is how I saw it with the words and phrasing you used. You believe you didn't correct yourself or back-peddle, I believe you did, we should both just agree to disagree.

There's philosophy of science and then there is insight to human behavior. I agree we see the world way differently in what we think should be analyzed first or analyzed at all. That's just a difference in us; we don't have to be the same and the fact that we aren't makes life more interesting.

Nope, it's not appropriate of me and I understand that and it's something that I have to deal with and I think it sucks. The only way that I know to let others know that I'm not being rational and I'm getting hurt too easily is by telling them that I'm PMSing and I am very very appreciative that you could understand that. I am more than sure that in a couple days I'll feel real bad for all of this and I might apologize to the people who I believe deserve an apology and it's a shitty thing that I have to deal with. Try to lock myself in my room to have less collateral damage and then I get on the internet so that doesn't work lol... You want to find a fix to help women find a cure for PMS. I think everybody would be happier if bitches didn't go crazy every once and a while.

I don't know if there's any solution for cat calling right now. I think some things that would help is if those times when men are walking with women and hear those women get cat called have those men stick up for those women. But then again how many of those times are going to result in fist fights between the two. You already know that cat callers are ignorant, are they also angry and horny? It's all about picking your battles and at the same time understanding which ones you can win. I was at a friends graduation a long, long time ago and there were two women having a heated argument. Now I was pretty happy and pretty giddy and I watched them argue and from their tone and their stature and what kinds of things they were saying I knew that if I went up to them I could stop their fighting and I did. I went up to them like a stoner and told them that 'today's such a beautiful day man, just, just look at the flowers' and they laughed and they forgot their angst with each other and they laughed together at how weird I was and how weird that situation was to them. I directed their bitching and moaning at each other to laughing with each other and that's where I believe tone and behavior makes a huge difference and really does matter. A woman being cat called has to make a split second decision of, 'Is this person going to hurt me? Is this person going to expect more from me if I say good morning back?' And that's what is cycling through their minds during these times so more often than not keeping your head low and not saying anything and just get out of there as quick as you can can be the best solution. I don't know that there's a real quick fix. It's something that has happened for forever and I believe will continue to happen so long as there are ignorant people in the world.

Thanks. I gladly agree to disagree where we disagree, but I think there's plenty on which we agree
I hope you get through it quickly.

 

[bionic]

have you ever met someone you liked through their cat calling, or do you know someone who has?

No, Cat calling has never worked on me. It's low-class behavior, imo. As for the other women in my life -- No. I find that it makes women around here feel unsafe, alarmed, and anxious. A lot of it is because rape and sexual harassment is constant in the city and on the news.... and it not just men harassing women. I've had guy friends who were groped on the subway by other guys or even women. Groping happens A LOT on the subway. A girlfriend of mine actually pulled a knife on a guy because he constantly taunted her while they were waiting on the subway platform. As she was making it inside, he grabbed her ass and she threated to kill him. Stuff like this happens a lot. I think its one of the reasons why New Yorkers or *I* come off so "tough". We're so used to crap like this happening that we become so mistrustful and standoffish toward people.

The only realistic solution is changing your own interpretation.
Yeah, that seems weird, because you have to adapt because someone else does something wrong. I agree. It sucks. But if you want change anytime soon, it's your best bet.
(Unless, of course, you simply move somewhere where there are no or less cat callers. But that also involves you changing for them.)

Change my "interpretation" of the issue? I don't have to change shit. Fuck off with that bullshit. I have every right to get angry, upset, and feel violated if I have been taken advantage of. Don't fucking tell me how I should act or feel. My god, opinions like this are what is wrong with society.

You have balls that I don't have. I can't say that I'd have the guts to live there unless I was able to drive... and run people over lol.

That's the thing though... your only options for transportation is by foot, subway, or taxi (which is VERY expensive). Driving around in a car isn't really an option unless you're in the other boroughs or tri-state area.

I've taken a lot of responses in this thread very personally because this subject IS very personal for me. So I've been upset with a lot of posts that make fun of the subject or try to dismiss the issue. I've showed my perspective on things to hopefully shine light on just how serious this is. I wish the police or NYers would speak up more when they see women being verbally harassed or even stalked on the streets but unfortunately people here are usually oblivious to these things in the city cause they're so focused on getting to their next destination. I appreciate your empathetic response. I do have balls, they're just up higher!

 

[54tjsioU]

Am in love with [MENTION=3799]bionic[/MENTION] right now x3 *wages tail*

 

[SpecialEdition]

That's the thing though... your only options for transportation is by foot, subway, or taxi (which is VERY expensive). Driving around in a car isn't really an option unless you're in the other boroughs or tri-state area.

I've taken a lot of responses in this thread very personally because this subject IS very personal for me. So I've been upset with a lot of posts that make fun of the subject or try to dismiss the issue. I've showed my perspective on things to hopefully shine light on just how serious this is. I wish the police or NYers would speak up more when they see women being verbally harassed or even stalked on the streets but unfortunately people here are usually oblivious to these things in the city cause they're so focused on getting to their next destination. I appreciate your empathetic response. I do have balls, they're just up higher!

Yeah I definitely think your perspective is valuable because you have experienced it on this level first hand which I think most people haven't. I haven't run into this with strangers on the street. Just in offices I worked in (my career deals with a lot of long distance, lonely truckers) and guys who have tried to manipulate and guilt me into fucking them. I have had maybe 5 cat calls in my life, ever. So to me it's manageable in that sense. However, if I had to walk down a street just minding my own business and had people drawing attention to me ALL the time I would become a shut in. I don't have the emotional strength to handle something like that on a regular basis.

haha. At least they're hidden and safe up high unlike the balls of men you probably want to slice off lol.

Have you ever thought of moving out of the city? Or is there enough about it that you love to stay? I would find it so hard not to become an agoraphobe.

 

[bionic]

@bionic – Thanks for the explanation. It's not something I've seen (or noticed before - but then again I'm not the most observant person) but on this occasion it caught my attention. It's not something you see in the UK, certainly not where I live. Three men sitting in front of shops, in a row, on a busy road...passing the day, people watching (specifically women) and that would explain why women walking past would be a target for their social entertainment.

I've been to NY several times (it’s a completely different atmosphere in comparison to other parts of the US) but I didn't venture out to unfamiliar territory. I can’t get my head around what it must be like to experience a bombardment of personal and sexual taunting (not the “Have a nice day” sentiments) AND to experience it everywhere and ALL THE TIME - I can't really say I know what that feels like except to say it's beyond belief AND the impact it would have on my sense of well-being…..hmmmmm I don't know. I never take the feeling of being safe for granted - as I tend to be in my head a lot when walking, I'm rarely ever conscious of my surroundings...so to have the freedom to walk without being sexually pounced upon gives me a sense of peace.

Oh yea. If you go to Harlem, Washington Heights, parts of Queens or Brooklyn, you'll see a lot of men sitting out with others in front of shops. It's just their version of socializing. There aren't many social clubs available (that's for rich ppl, lol) so this is their ghetto version, lol. Puerto Ricans and Dominicans have been migrating over to NYC since the 50s. It's very common in Puerto Rico or Dominican Republic to hang out in front of stores or on the street. So since a lot of these men do it on the mainland, they treat their neighborhoods in NYC just the same.

Yeah, I don't mind the "Have a nice day beautiful!" or "Dayum!" comments. I roll my eyes at it because I don't care for the attention. I only want attention from my man. It is crossing the line when guys make rude comments on my body, walk next to me for awhile, or just invade my space. There is a line and I think more people should be aware of it.

 

[JGirl]

i didn't find any of the comments made by the so called cat callers offensive in the least. (some) men are dolts sometimes and for some it's the only way they speak to women, sadly enough lol
in today's culture of 'everything equals rape' i find this to be predictably over the top. none of the men i saw were in the least threatening. the worst was the guy who followed along with her but she did nothing to stop him either, so i don't consider that to be something threatening or dangerous - more like annoying.
i'm not suggesting that being called out to on the street is the dream compliment of every woman but what i am saying is that it's not abuse. it amounts to nothing more than words - unsolicited compliments. so what?

 

[bionic]

Yeah I definitely think your perspective is valuable because you have experienced it on this level first hand which I think most people haven't. I haven't run into this with strangers on the street. Just in offices I worked in (my career deals with a lot of long distance, lonely truckers) and guys who have tried to manipulate and guilt me into fucking them. I have had maybe 5 cat calls in my life, ever. So to me it's manageable in that sense. However, if I had to walk down a street just minding my own business and had people drawing attention to me ALL the time I would become a shut in. I don't have the emotional strength to handle something like that on a regular basis.

haha. At least they're hidden and safe up high unlike the balls of men you probably want to slice off lol.

Have you ever thought of moving out of the city? Or is there enough about it that you love to stay? I would find it so hard not to become an agoraphobe.

Ugh... truckers are the worst. I've heard some stories about them too. Some of them can be overly friendly.

Yeah I'm moving to WA and in with [MENTION=6964]Colt[/MENTION] next year after I graduate. I don't love anything about NYC anymore. The only thing I would miss is my big ol' family and some friends. Maybe the fact that I can still go out in the middle of the night for chinese food if I want it, lol. Otherwise, I don't care for it. I always feel most at ease when I travel. I'm not moving b/c of the cat-calling, it's just a by-product of living here. It's mainly financial since its VERY expensive to survive here, let alone have a decent life. I like a more relaxed, safe, stable way of life.... and NYC doesn't provide that, obviously. It'd be nice not to live paycheck-to-paycheck. I'm more anxious about having to learn how to drive. I'm not really looking forward to it, lol.

 

[SpecialEdition]

Ugh... truckers are the worst. I've heard some stories about them too. Some of them can be overly friendly.

Yeah I'm moving to WA and in with [MENTION=6964]Colt[/MENTION] next year after I graduate. I don't love anything about NYC anymore. The only thing I would miss is my big ol' family and some friends. Maybe the fact that I can still go out in the middle of the night for chinese food if I want it, lol. Otherwise, I don't care for it. I always feel most at ease when I travel. I'm not moving b/c of the cat-calling, it's just a by-product of living here. It's mainly financial since its VERY expensive to survive here, let alone have a decent life. I like a more relaxed, safe, stable way of life.... and NYC doesn't provide that, obviously. It'd be nice not to live paycheck-to-paycheck. I'm more anxious about having to learn how to drive. I'm not really looking forward to it, lol.

Yep. I have had to be escorted to my car by co-workers because of creepy drivers, been told I need to be "spanked," and all kinds of other garbage by them. I've been dealing with that kind of stuff since I started working around truckers when I was 15.

Washington is gorgeous. Hopefully you enjoy it there! Don't worry about learning how to drive. It's a bit scary at first but at least you won't be learning how to drive in the insanity of NYC haha.

 

[JGirl]

[MENTION=3799]bionic[/MENTION]
sorry you couldn't disagree without thumbing down my opinion.
how unfortunate that one cannot have a differing opinion without that stigma

 

[JGirl]

This is interesting.

I agree with the point of your post. If it happens too often and a lot, it gets annoying and possibly scary.

The right of personal space in public in a huge city is probably an issue. Some questions on this.

1) Can one expect to have optimum respect of personal space in public in a huge city?
2) When is one's personal space invaded and when isn't it?


On the first question.
For example in my country people are allowed to film anything in public. I'd still consider it an invasion of my personal space or privacy of someone does this to me.
By going into public we sacrifice some privacy and personal space, simply because the space we are in isn't personal, but public. This is inevitable.

On the second one.
I think is what the debate is about. Is a random guy yelling "You're hot!" an invasion of your personal space? Some will say it is, some say it isn't. I'm on the fence with this. At first this seems harmless to me, but as you explain if you hear it everyday I agree that it becomes too much. The same about sexist or racist jokes. I can laugh about them once in a while, but if you repeat them too often it'll bother me.
What I still can't see as invasion of personal space is a text like "How are you doing, miss?". This doesn't imply anything sexual ("hot" could imply that) and seems like a regular polite question. Maybe their intentions are sexual, but maybe they aren't. But saying that any approach of another person is an invasion of your personal space, makes me think one shouldn't leave his house at all.

I'm trying to think in solutions here.
My suggestion in my previous post in this thread was changing the interpretation of the cat called woman. This is because I think some cat calling can be seen as a regular compliment, rather than "I want sex".
Any solutions in laws don't seem possible. We cannot deny each other the right to approach someone in public.
Any influencing of the cat callers seems too hard to me to bother. Firstly, I cannot reach them in any way right now. Secondly, likely no one here can reach them, except maybe the cat called, but I doubt they want to approach cat callers. Thirdly, simply creating awareness in media isn't going to reach the lions share of the cat callers. Fourthly, even if it reaches them I sincerely doubt if they will change their behaviour. And finally, changing the behaviour and underlying culture of the guys that cat call would at least take years, probably decennia, to accomplish even if large scale effort is put into it.

The only realistic solution is changing your own interpretation.
Yeah, that seems weird, because you have to adapt because someone else does something wrong. I agree. It sucks. But if you want change anytime soon, it's your best bet.
(Unless, of course, you simply move somewhere where there are no or less cat callers. But that also involves you changing for them.)

i don't know about changing your interpretation per se, but i agree for the most part with your comments otherwise.

 

[bionic]

@bionic
sorry you couldn't disagree without thumbing down my opinion.
how unfortunate that one cannot have a differing opinion without that stigma

You can go ahead and read my posts about my personal experience being a New York City woman. I'm sure if you encountered what that woman in the video goes through and what *I* along with countless other NY women endure on a daily basis, you would be more thoughtful about your response. I doubt you would enjoy being groped on the train or having men stalk you down the street. So before you try to start a stupid argument with me, think about being in that woman's or my shoes... and THEN think about how it would feel to endure that everyday while you're commuting to work, school, or back home. I highly doubt you would want to go through that or have any female family members go through it either.

So go ahead and actually READ the whole thread and think before you post.

I go through this on a daily basis, you do not. Don't try to dismiss my feelings because you do not understand it.

 

[JGirl]

You can go ahead and read my posts about my personal experience being a New York City woman. I'm sure if you encountered what that woman in the video goes through and what *I* along with countless other NY women endure on a daily basis, you would be more thoughtful about your response. I doubt you would enjoy being groped on the train or having men stalk you down the street. So before you try to start a stupid argument with me, think about being in that woman's or my shoes... and THEN think about how it would feel to endure that everyday while you're commuting to work, school, or back home. I highly doubt you would want to go through that or have any female family members go through it either.

So go ahead and actually READ the whole thread and think before you post.

I go through this on a daily basis, you do not. Don't try to dismiss my feelings because you do not understand it.

first things first. i have no desire to argue with you. not the least bit interested in that, especially where the topic is opinion. there is no point in ever arguing something based on opinon. yours or mine. having said that, i do not live in a bubble, and i have lived in m,any large cities and have been groped thank you - i have also lived probably at least twice as long as you and have many more experiences to draw from

i am no stranger to cat calls bionic. i just see it differently than you do. and i said not one word about your personal experience, i was merely giving my opinion based on mine. Kind of like what you did no?
in any case, a thumbs down is a bit of an insult to me, so thanks for that

 

[muir]

I was listeing to a clip online recently that was talking about rape

The guys were saying that in some countries it is possible for women to retrospectively accuse someone of rape

In other words it's possible for a woman to willingly sleep with a guy then decide later on that it was actually 'rape'

So if a woman sleeps with a man and then the man leaves and the woman feels jilted then she can then call the police and accuse him of 'rape' out of spite

 

[bionic]

first things first. i have no desire to argue with you. not the least bit interested in that, especially where the topic is opinion. there is no point in ever arguing something based on opinon. yours or mine. having said that, i do not live in a bubble, and i have lived in m,any large cities and have been groped thank you - i have also lived probably at least twice as long as you and have many more experiences to draw from

i am no stranger to cat calls bionic. i just see it differently than you do. and i said not one word about your personal experience, i was merely giving my opinion based on mine. Kind of like what you did no?
in any case, a thumbs down is a bit of an insult to me, so thanks for that

Then why call me out for thumbs downing you? You walked into this.

I have talked about my opinion but also *MY* experiences. You can go ahead and read my prior posts. I don't care whether you're my age or not. You do not KNOW me and what I have been through. You also don't have the right to say that you have more experience than me because of my age. I've been through a lot of shit in my life and then some. I have plenty of scars.

Since you're a woman of an older age who has supposedly experienced difficult stuff, I'm VERY disappointed at your absence of sensitivity to a subject like this... which effects SO many women (AND men) of many different ages living in NYC. I'm just looking for some understanding here and obviously you're devoid of it.

This is my piece. I hope you put your view aside and try to see where I'm coming from.

 

[muir]

men should stop wolf whistling and women should stop sashaying down the street in high heels, short skirts and their tits on display and their hair all done up nice

Or should men notice but not comment?

If they should notice how long is it acceptable to look for?

is it ok to glance?

What about a lingering look? is that ok or is that creepy man behaviour?

It's all so complicated these days

maybe women should just go back to venus and men should go back to mars

 

[muir]

There was recently a Uk footballer who was jailed for rape. There has been some discussion in the media if he should be able to be a professional footballer again when he gets out of prison

I wasn't really interested in the story until it became part of another story...

A female breakfast TV host who is very famous here in the UK said that he should be able to be a footballer again because the rape was non violent

An internet 'troll' then said the hosts daughter should raped; this then got blown up into the whole legal action against trolls issue

But it got me thinkig about how rape can be 'non violent'

I don't know the specifics of his case other than that he met a girl on a night out and that she was drunk and came back with him to his hotel room.

I don't know anything beyond that but i did start thinking about how easy it would be for a woman to try and pull a guy then go back with him to a hotel or bedroom, sleep with him and then when he leaves in the morning saying he does not want to take things any further for her to feel like she did not manage to bag the guy she made a move for and then out of spite accuse him retrospectively of 'rape'

I'm not speaking of the footballer case because i don't know the specifics but i could see how a footballer could get into trouble along those lines because that footballer for example had a girlfriend, so if a guy like that slept with a girl and then said in the morning: ''sorry can't see you again as i have a girlfriend'' that she might then take revenge by falsly accusing him

Perhaps its time that the law gave men some protections by convicting any women who falsly accuse men of rape with the same sentences a man would be given if convicted of rape

 

[Gaze]

There was recently a Uk footballer who was jailed for rape. There has been some discussion in the media if he should be able to be a professional footballer again when he gets out of prison

I wasn't really interested in the story until it became part of another story...

A female breakfast TV host who is very famous here in the UK said that he should be able to be a footballer again because the rape was non violent

An internet 'troll' then said the hosts daughter should raped; this then got blown up into the whole legal action against trolls issue

But it got me thinkig about how rape can be 'non violent'

I don't know the specifics of his case other than that he met a girl on a night out and that she was drunk and came back with him to his hotel room.

I don't know anything beyond that but i did start thinking about how easy it would be for a woman to try and pull a guy then go back with him to a hotel or bedroom, sleep with him and then when he leaves in the morning saying he does not want to take things any further for her to feel like she did not manage to bag the guy she made a move for and then out of spite accuse him retrospectively of 'rape'

I'm not speaking of the footballer case because i don't know the specifics but i could see how a footballer could get into trouble along those lines because that footballer for example had a girlfriend, so if a guy like that slept with a girl and then said in the morning: ''sorry can't see you again as i have a girlfriend'' that she might then take revenge by falsly accusing him

Perhaps its time that the law gave men some protections by convicting any women who falsly accuse men of rape with the same sentences a man would be given if convicted of rape

Do you mind restarting a new thread about women accusing men of rape? I don't think it's appropriate in this thread. Thank you.

 

[Gaze]

I think some of the comments are giving the impression that there should only be one perspective on cat calling and that was not the original point of the thread. Varying opinions are welcome.

 

[muir]

Do you mind restarting a new thread about women accusing men of rape? I don't think it's appropriate in this thread. Thank you.

Ok i just thought it tied into modern perceptions of attitudes relating to male/female relations which is the foundation of this thread