How do you feel about cat calling?

[muir]

@muir


I see what you are saying. But approaching or 'making the first move' is different than cat-calling."Cat-calling" is defined by a person who whistles, shouts, or makes comments of a sexual nature to a woman passing by.

I don't see that as making a first move. I see it as harrassment.

I think what you're talking about is not the same as cat-calling.

I commented after someone mentioned work place problems of sexual harrassment (and men not being taken seriously)

 

[muir]

Alright if you really insist on continuing this line of discussion I guess I'll bite.

I'm not advocating some Mike Tyson-style punchout like that one J-Lo movie (good movie tho) because most people, let alone most women, never have such a high level of training in striking. It is absolutely feasible for a woman to use her fists against a man, but she needs the capability to offset the sheer size difference.

But one thing everybody can do, especially women, is to kick. Kick anything from the abdomen down (solar plexus, abs, groin, quads, kneecaps, shins, ankles/feet). All of these are very vulnerable spots that any physically healthy but otherwise incapable person can exploit.

Woman misses the groin and suddenly has escalated the situation into one where the guy is now acting from self defence (he might have been harrassing but she has now taken the situation into a violent situation)

if there are no witnesses then there is no one to testify to the prior harrasment but someone might easily see the woman striking the man and before she knows it she has not only been whacked by some unstable person but she also has bystanders telling the police that she threw the first shot

 

[muir]

If we're talking about the definition of empowering as "giving someone the authority or power to do something", in this case letting others use you as a sex object, then yes.

However, I am talking about empowering in the sense that someone becomes more confident in life by knowing they're sexually attractive.

More confident from drawing unwanted attention?

Does a person want to select a potential partner or do they want to try and attract potential partners by setting out their stall to the world saying through the medium of body language and dress: ''i'm open for business'' (and thereby also attracting potentially unwanted attention as well)

Maybe they should wear a sign around their neck saying: ''losers need not apply''

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] If this keeps up we'll be wearing burqas.

Keep in mind that "confidence" doesn't entail dressing like a pornstar or intentionally being enticing to anyone. It means not being forced to dress down extensively simply because some people can't handle themselves.

You know what we typically do with people who make their own issue become somebody else's problem? We lock them away. Or at least try to keep them out of society. A man who can't control himself and abide by etiquette and compulsively leers and jeers because he's seen too many sexy women is hypothetically a danger to society. It's no excuse.

And yes, women too.

 

[SealHammer]

Woman misses the groin and suddenly has escalated the situation into one where the guy is now acting from self defence (he might have been harrassing but she has now taken the situation into a violent situation)

if there are no witnesses then there is no one to testify to the prior harrasment but someone might easily see the woman striking the man and before she knows it she has not only been whacked by some unstable person but she also has bystanders telling the police that she threw the first shot

Most people don't pay attention to individuals in a large group until they distinguish themselves. The distinguishing factor would be the strike. All that's left afterwards is the motivation.

I'm following your line of logic, and your constant assumption is that women are incapable of completing an act of physical violence against others. Why? Why do you think women should not have absolute sovereignty over their bodies?

 

[Rcs6r]

More confident from drawing unwanted attention?

Does a person want to select a potential partner or do they want to try and attract potential partners by setting out their stall to the world saying through the medium of body language and dress: ''i'm open for business'' (and thereby also attracting potentially unwanted attention as well)

Maybe they should wear a sign around their neck saying: ''losers need not apply''

You're combining perspectives that I already separated up above, and no where did I say someone had to dress in a way that says "I'm open for business."

Unwanted attention comes with living around other people, it's unavoidable. You can be sexually attractive and not dress like, I assume you mean, a "slut". Natural beauty is a thing that exists regardless how you dress and people who know they are physically attractive can get a confidence boost from this.

However, what one person considers attractive, another may not. There is no one-size-fits-all on attractiveness on a certain level, until you start talking about tabloids and a culture's definition of attractiveness. And before you even respond, yes we are ALL aware that it's the elite using the media to divide us and tell us what we should think is attractive. This thread is not about social engineering.

People are going to be cat called by someone who doesn't give a fuck about respect and finds them attractive, regardless of what we think.

 

[sassafras]

If you want to avoid cat calling, just walk around looking as disgusting as possible.

Actually, that doesn't work. Women who do not live up to the standard of beauty get harassed just as much, if not more, because it is assumed that their self-esteem is low enough that they're easy pickings. They're seen as being less likely to turn around and embarrass you in front of your friends (and anyone else who is watching) for being an asshole. And in the event that they do anyway, their lack of attractiveness doesn't hold the same amount of social currency as an attractive who does the same and they're brushed off.

Edit: Horatio just pointed out to me that he was being facetious and I'd like to acknowledge that. But at the same time, I'm not going to delete my post because I think it touches up on the other facet of cat-calling that is not about sexual attractiveness, but assertion of dominance.

 

[cvp12gh5]

I personally could care less what a cat-caller looked like, how much money he made, what type of car he drives etc. If he's making comments of a sexual nature to me while I'm walking down the street, then he's not my type. Not interested.

It's a sign of disrespect.

 

[La Sagna]

More confident from drawing unwanted attention?

Does a person want to select a potential partner or do they want to try and attract potential partners by setting out their stall to the world saying through the medium of body language and dress: ''i'm open for business'' (and thereby also attracting potentially unwanted attention as well)

Maybe they should wear a sign around their neck saying: ''losers need not apply''

The woman in the video was just wearing jeans and a t-shirt and minding her own business, are you suggesting that she should be wearing something baggy and unattractive or else she's selling herself?

 

[La Sagna]

I believe that pornography has caused too many men to believe that women are only meant to fulfil men's fantasies and that if they don't want to do that then they are not doing what they are 'supposed to do'.

 

[La Sagna]

[video]https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/83C44446241103412200556953600_2b1b1aec164.1.1.6152 915889774224396.mp4?versionId=BaNkWqS1wRPgmoTCnUal Txhw7Y3alL3b[/video]

 

[sprinkles]

I believe that pornography has caused too many men to believe that women are only meant to fulfil men's fantasies and that if they don't want to do that then they are not doing what they are 'supposed to do'.

Yes and this points out a flaw in the argument which posits that women are selling themselves and are somehow being too sexy because the media uses women for advertising and therefore it's somehow women's fault.

It's flawed due to the fact that this happens because there's a market for it. For sake of argument let's say that most women stop "being too sexy". The hornballs will start seeking out the women who still meet their sexual requirements.

Yes it's true that sex sells and is always in the face of men and women alike. But the argument that catcallers feel victimized doesn't hold water because they aren't going to complain about it, on the contrary I would argue many like it that way.

If sexy women go away they're [the catcallers] not going to feel liberated, they're going to be unhappy about it and go looking for the sexy women elsewhere.

 

[Lark]

Most people don't pay attention to individuals in a large group until they distinguish themselves. The distinguishing factor would be the strike. All that's left afterwards is the motivation.

I'm following your line of logic, and your constant assumption is that women are incapable of completing an act of physical violence against others. Why? Why do you think women should not have absolute sovereignty over their bodies?

They should be and if they want equality they will be.

I'm a total and utter subscriber to the idea of amazon feminism, the sort of ideas with which the creator of Wonder Woman had to have had at least a passing acquaintence with, its strangely associated these days with women who are power lifters and body builders and also women of great, tall stature, complete with its fetishistic scene, but at a time it meant a feminism which wasnt going to make the intellectual case for equality so much as practically make it happen, no one claiming to be the equal of anyone else unless they were already.

I think this is an important aspect of any emancipatory ideology worth its title at all, dont wait on your liberator, dont abdicate your own responsibility for yourself and dont suffer and injury without answering it yourself.

 

[Lark]

I believe that pornography has caused too many men to believe that women are only meant to fulfil men's fantasies and that if they don't want to do that then they are not doing what they are 'supposed to do'.

I dont think its pornography, I think its a much wider phenomenon, which tells people they can expect, and are entitled to, the respect of others, that others are at their service and ought to be servile to them, all simply as a matter of course.

The sorts of bad attitudes which were once the preserve only of tyrants and elites are now as widespread as the rotten ideologies which keep those individuals in power, the lowest dog now believes that others ought to be at his beck and call.

 

[La Sagna]

I dont think its pornography, I think its a much wider phenomenon, which tells people they can expect, and are entitled to, the respect of others, that others are at their service and ought to be servile to them, all simply as a matter of course.

The sorts of bad attitudes which were once the preserve only of tyrants and elites are now as widespread as the rotten ideologies which keep those individuals in power, the lowest dog now believes that others ought to be at his beck and call.

I agree that a lot of people believe that others should be at their service but you cannot discount the negative effects of pornography. Most pornography is aimed at men and therefore portray women doing whatever the man wants and there is very little pornography that takes into consideration what 'turns on' women. If men have good male and female role models in their lives that can mitigate the effect of the pornography but if they don't they get a very warped view of male and female sexual relationships.

Edit: Women have also gotten a warped view of male and female sexual relationships from pornography, not just men.

 

[SealHammer]

I believe that pornography has caused too many men to believe that women are only meant to fulfil men's fantasies and that if they don't want to do that then they are not doing what they are 'supposed to do'.

Not really. That has more to do with the socialization of children into gender roles than it does pornography. Expectations created in early youth matter a hell of a lot in a person's development.

 

[Lark]

I agree that a lot of people believe that others should be at their service but you cannot discount the negative effects of pornography. Most pornography is aimed at men and therefore portray women doing whatever the man wants and there is very little pornography that takes into consideration what 'turns on' women. If men have good male and female role models in their lives that can mitigate the effect of the pornography but if they don't they get a very warped view of male and female sexual relationships.

I totally agree that pornography gives a distorted version of sexuality, I dont believe what it portrays for the most part is sex at all but a string of bizarre fetishes which it produces itself to begin with as unique selling points, the idea that it could be shaping public perceptions and expectations among males and females isnt something I like to give over a lot of thought to really. Although I think it fits with wider tendencies which are seeking to militate against anything like traditional norms of sexuality or any natural feeling when it comes to sexuality too. A lot of what is promoted through pornography and, curiously, liberal academic abstract theorising I think fits under the rubicon of abnormal psychology.


The standard criticism of porn that it makes sex look easy, consequence free and available is a very, very fair one but it has its female corollaries too.

I remember a radio presenter from the BBC who had been in a storm and even publically violent relationship talk about how she'd had to go through therapy in order to discover that everyone was afflicted by beliefs that everyone else was having a better time than them, had better relationships, had better everything pretty much, leaving anyone feeling this way disatisfied with their own relationships, leading to addiction and all sorts of dreadful psychologically compensatory behaviours and ill coping strategies. To me that all should be patently obvious. Its just advertising to blame for that, although its part of it. People too easily engage in fantasy and slip into believing they have it worse than others when they dont.

 

[Lark]

Not really. That has more to do with the socialization of children into gender roles than it does pornography. Expectations created in early youth matter a hell of a lot in a person's development.

Sometimes that's alright you know, sex and gender isnt the same thing, sex roles are cultural constructs which vary with time and place, gender is what you are, male or female.

I personally dont think that sex roles are worthy of being demonised as they have been sometimes, radical feminists have actually campaigned for the recognition and appreciation of the differences between women and men, blinkered equality and equality as uniformity or standardisation has been a gross error and virtually discredited equality as a concept. Something a lot of the people campaigning for the redefinition of marriage to mean something other than what it has meant almost universally in all cultures and over historical time have failed to realise.

Sometimes I think the disappearence of, or repression of male sexed roles as patriarchal or chauvinistic has been a gross error too. I'm no conservative on this topic, not really, but validating the role of men as protectors, providers and personally responsible for the consequences of their actions, such as bedding down with women at random, wasnt that bad a thing. That's not to down play the actual patriarchal oppressions which have existed in the past or that do now, its disgusting and a betrayal of manliness.

 

[Lark]

Cat calling's cowardice!

Approach someone and speak with them like a human being.

Or dont.

Dont think that shouting shit at them is fair play though because that's being an asshole.

 

[flower]

[video=youtube;7YQ1PhOnM3I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YQ1PhOnM3I[/video]