I find it hard to date....

Speaking of protection, @VH; I like your theory but without the component of provision it's hard to see the whole picture. I think for females, their instinct compels them to seek not just protection but provision. They are driven to assure that their children will be protected as well as provided for until the children can do so themselves.
VH said:
The bonds in the communal network don't need to be especially deep. If a few people aren't enamoured, that's fine, so long as they aren't enemies. (This is where the drive to "be friends" comes from). So long as there are a number of people who will offer assistance out of an emotional bond that stems from empathy, the communal netowrk serves its purpose. The mate protector however, has to be such a deep bond that he will be willing to risk his life to defend her.
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Females also need emotional support. And since today many women are capable of providing for the basic physical needs of their children without the assistance of a man, I would argue that this makes emotional support an even more valuable commodity. In our society it's much easier for women to find someone to have a sexual relationship with, than finding someone who is going to support them emotionally. So this begs the question, once you have found emotional support, why risk it by introducing a sexual relationship?
 
Part of my problem is that I'm too picky. I admit it.

But the sad part is that when I finally find someone I'm interested in AND attracted to (both important), I find out she's already dating someone. UGH!

This happened to me last night.
 
I identify almost word for word with you on this. It is even more difficult when you have someone on your mind all the time.
 
Norwich said:
Speaking of protection, @VH; I like your theory but without the component of provision it's hard to see the whole picture. I think for females, their instinct compels them to seek not just protection but provision. They are driven to assure that their children will be protected as well as provided for until the children can do so themselves.Females also need emotional support. And since today many women are capable of providing for the basic physical needs of their children without the assistance of a man, I would argue that this makes emotional support an even more valuable commodity. In our society it's much easier for women to find someone to have a sexual relationship with, than finding someone who is going to support them emotionally. So this begs the question, once you have found emotional support, why risk it by introducing a sexual relationship?
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Yeah, I forgot to mention the evolutionary urge to find the best provider, aka hunter. That's also huge. bad hunter = not enough food to make more people and pass on genetic traits.

I also think you're onto something. It could just be my skewed perspective because I'm so often the emotional support provider, but it seems like we're living in a day and age when women are looking to 'guy friends' more and more for emotional support.

I think I should start telling women who I am interested in that they need to have a good job, be financially independent, and able to protect me if we are attacked by strangers if they want me to provide emotional support and meet their affection needs. Hehe.
 
[MENTION=4242]dvdt24[/MENTION]
"It's a dumb paradox considering the fact that when we are more interested in someone we're more likely to protect them even against ourselves while at the same time suffering the conflict of wanting the same person. But then, for me my protective side still wins over my selfish side."

:( This has proved true in many circumstances for me. No matter how much they want me, they wanna protect me from themselves more. I suppose I should be grateful...
 
I have noticed that women (around suburbia anyway) seem very impatient and somewhat superficial about relationships. I'm not faulting them...this is coming from an INFJ perspective, people for whom it may take quite a bit of time to get to know and truly appreciate.

Here's an interesting cycle I have noticed (based on my non-dating life-choice):

1) Initial interaction phase: friendly and pleasant. I do not ever overstep here...they probably have pepper spray. (1-2 weeks)

2) "Curious" phase: more conversation, pleasant interaction. Still no overstepping. (6 months)

3) Assertion of barriers phase: she disidentifies barriers (rightly so) to any romantic relationship. No overstepping. She may move on to other conquests at this point. (2 weeks)

4) "Are you for real?" phase: More conversation and much time for her to process this odd workings of this guy. Mutual listening and exchange of ideas. (1-2 years)

5) Release of barriers phase: She realizes I am very complex, maybe unknowable, but very real, open, and honest. I am also content. (1 week)

6) Love and appreciation phase: Deep friendship sets in that lasts a lifetime through thick and thin...a soul friend. Still no overstepping.

7) Deep friendship becomes something more: no, this has never happened, but overstepping might be a possibility here. :)

Note time sequence involved. This is why I have been single for 20 years. The whole thing now gives me quite a chuckle. At least I am content.

Frankly, I have been busy raising kids who I dearly love and life gets more complicated as the years go by. My life is not as flexible as it once was, and is for you youngsters.

I have little interest in the whole primal "Me Tarzan, you Jane" game.
 
VH said:
I think I should start telling women who I am interested in that they need to have a good job, be financially independent, and able to protect me if we are attacked by strangers if they want me to provide emotional support and meet their affection needs. Hehe.
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Good one!

I've been thinking about how difficult it must be for the INFJ male to navigate that fine line between showing sexual interest and the fear of coming off as a creep interested only in personal gratification.

My first love was this amazing guy I got to know in youth group. We dated throughout high-school. He never once pressured me to do anything sexual. This was really cool. He had an obvious appreciation for how I looked, but never showed much desire to be close to me physically. Except for the occasional friendly hug and a chaste kiss at the end of the date, he never really touched me. As it turns out he was gay and, at the time, in the closet to even himself. Since I didn't want to have a sexual relationship with anyone, at first it was very comfortable being in a relationship with him. But after a while it started having some negative effects on my self esteme. Females are conditioned, from a very young age, that much of their value is in being attractive to males. My eldest daughter once uttered a comment that made me realize she was already grasping this notion. She was only three at the time.

Anyway, I would just like to point out that for some women putting men in the friend zone may be a way of protecting their ego.
 
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randomsomeone said:
I'll bet that threw you for a loop!
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Yeah, I was really freaked out. Dealt with it then by assuming it had something to do with what she'd been exposed to before we were able to provide her protection. But still, if a three year old can pick up on it.......
It disgusts me how much marketing is aimed at exploiting the need many females have to be desired! :rant: But I won't get started on that and derail this thread.
 
technics said:
Yes, and not only that. You have to signal to your potential mate that you're not going to be her friend (aka Mr. Nice Guy), that your own values and your own fulfillment will always be more important than her, and you have to subject all other men within your peer group under your power.
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"Hunt like a predator" in others terms would be noticing someone's interesting to you and actually go out of your way to introduce yourself to them? And I'm not sure how exactly we're using the stereotype of "nice guy". Nice guy, to me, on the surfaces implies that a guy is good natured and all that but almost always, deep down, the guy (or girl) actually just seems to be spineless. And, by contrast, is being a nice guy means that you have to place another person's values and fulfillment over your own, especially at the beginning of the relationship, I can kind of see why "nice guys" are attractive. I've noticed that "Alphas" tend to wan to make everyone else submit to them but I've actually never noticed a large flux of women who were actually turned on by that. It implies confidence but if you have a group of weak willed individuals, women don't tend to flock to the mat all. Even the strongest one can be, by a large margin, weak willed.

(sorry if post seems awkwardly phrased)
 
Wyst said:
Part of my problem is that I'm too picky. I admit it.

But the sad part is that when I finally find someone I'm interested in AND attracted to (both important), I find out she's already dating someone. UGH!

This happened to me last night.
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I can relate to that... hahaha!!!..
Hang in there!
 
CiMoon said:
1) Then, learn to be happy as single. Don't think that you will only be happy with a partner. your partner can't make you happy, it's only you that make yourself happy.

2) So, what really matters is friendship, not romance, the ideal of love, the combination of sexual attraction and the "attraction of the souls."
CiMoon
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to 1) i think that everyone needs friendship (according to his/her temperament/ needs/ interests a playmate, helpmate, a soulmate, a "knowledge mate (or a combination) or whatever...)
but romance, a love relationship isn't necessary to survive of course, though it may complete your feeling of happiness. So, i correct myself: it's not completely true that s.o. can only make himself happy (without a friend definitely not and not fully without a love mate, based on friendship and bilateral attraction).

to 2) this is subjective: the need for romance varies from individual to individual from temperament to temperament, from lifetime to lifetime. (see also 1)
(i try to make more i/I-messages than you- messages now)
 
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dvdt24 said:
i constantly talk my self out of taking risks
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why?

most people talk themselves INTO taking risks

i take a lot of risks when it comes to relationships. i am a girl. and i always pursue what i want until i am satisfied. i am always satisfied.

my last 2-year relationship started this way:

- cute polite foreign coworker who is unskilled at english
- find out he is 12 years older than me?

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.
 
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Norwich said:
Anyway, I would just like to point out that for some women putting men in the friend zone may be a way of protecting their ego.
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=> explain please
 
VH said:
it seems like we're living in a day and age when women are looking to 'guy friends' more and more for emotional support.
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True. I hear and read on FB all the time how women hate to even have to interact with other women. And I dont care how spineless these nice guys are, I dont want to date or marry a lady who has exclusively guy friends. Women will just have to work something out so that they can get along.
 
CiMoon said:
to 2) this is subjective: the need for romance varies from individual to individual from temperament to temperament, from lifetime to lifetime.
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agree.
 
You're right about that, in these modern times, dreamers have it hard, and that includes romantics. I am a romantic for sure, and I think for the most part many INFJs are romantics too. I've met one INFJ guy who was into me, but was not a romantic at all and looked at relationships and sex in a strange way. But I've also met one who is very old fashioned, and I find it so lovely because I am also an old fashioned lady ;) Don't worry, it's rare but she will come around. Keep yourself the way you are because there's bound to be a girl searching for an old fashioned guy like you.
 
My best relationships always began as friendships (with no intent of a romantic relationship). I've never been close friends with many people. So it was never a matter of whether they were male or female, but if there was a connection. The connection includes (but not limited to) respect of differences, trust and ability to be oneself.

Finding this type of connection is difficult, but when I found it with a man ... the relationship would only blossom. In the beginning I may never have given this person a second glance as far as looks are concerned, but their beauty would surface from deep within and my attraction would grow. This is probably the reason I choose to not be close friends with males (as a married woman.) It's called damage control. :D
 
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