dudemanbro
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Make a damn Enneagram subforum ya dolt
Don't dolt me, yo, I'ma dolt you!
INFJ Leaders of History
- Thread starter Ryanbutler
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Don't dolt me, yo, I'ma dolt you!
muir
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The INFJ forum mushroom eating fertility cult!
You might find John Allegros book: ''The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross'' interesting!
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54tjsioU
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muir
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Graham hancock INFJ leader! Thats relevant to the thread
I think that the OP was heading off in the wrong direction regarding the people he mentioned
BrokenDaniel
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There's a valid point in [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] 's argument.
There aren't too many INFJs out there who have been on the bad side. I'm all for tearing down stereotypes, but then, stereotypes do have some truth in them. Think about it...
There are some types that when unhealthy tend to punish and do harm to others more. There are others who tend to retreat in their own world, and/or start self punishing themselves more, without doing much harm to others direclty. INFJs fit that category imo. This may come off as self flattering since that i'm an INFJ, and this is an INFJ forum, but there ARE some type configurations that seem more likely to develop sociopathic behaviour, and INFJs aren't one of them.
However, i'm talking about probabilities here, the only INFJ leader that i can think of, who seemed to show sociopathic behaviour was Hitler, and he has been a subject of a lot of fascination by historians, almost like if he was an exception to the rule. Don't know about the others, i'm not too well versed on politics, Osama Bin Laden seems unlikely though.
And i agree on the socionics/USSR idea, haven't made a research though. But i can see it, some theories seem scary and suspicious. It gave me the feeling of concentration camps and mass control, specially the intertype theories. Don't know about the INFJ portrait, since i don't think there's a direct translation between MBTI and socionics.
Now staying a little bit more on topic...
The other day i saw The Passion Of Joan Of Arc, i knew next to nothing about her before, she seems like an INFJ candidate imo. But i'm not sure, need feedback on this one.
There aren't too many INFJs out there who have been on the bad side. I'm all for tearing down stereotypes, but then, stereotypes do have some truth in them. Think about it...
There are some types that when unhealthy tend to punish and do harm to others more. There are others who tend to retreat in their own world, and/or start self punishing themselves more, without doing much harm to others direclty. INFJs fit that category imo. This may come off as self flattering since that i'm an INFJ, and this is an INFJ forum, but there ARE some type configurations that seem more likely to develop sociopathic behaviour, and INFJs aren't one of them.
However, i'm talking about probabilities here, the only INFJ leader that i can think of, who seemed to show sociopathic behaviour was Hitler, and he has been a subject of a lot of fascination by historians, almost like if he was an exception to the rule. Don't know about the others, i'm not too well versed on politics, Osama Bin Laden seems unlikely though.
And i agree on the socionics/USSR idea, haven't made a research though. But i can see it, some theories seem scary and suspicious. It gave me the feeling of concentration camps and mass control, specially the intertype theories. Don't know about the INFJ portrait, since i don't think there's a direct translation between MBTI and socionics.
Now staying a little bit more on topic...
The other day i saw The Passion Of Joan Of Arc, i knew next to nothing about her before, she seems like an INFJ candidate imo. But i'm not sure, need feedback on this one.
muir
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You're right man...it's not to say INFJ's don't have their faults or do wrong but they're not the ones causing the havoc out there
As for hitler i don't think he was an INFJ
I think he was choreographed for a start...the passion was used as part of the psychological manipulation...they knew exactly what they were doing
Its not like INFJs to behave like that...they're more softly spoken; they're not consistently forceful like that
They can have moments of anger but its not sustained like hitler was...he was seething all the time it seems...he couldnt release
INFJ's can release
Concerning mein kampf how do we know his writings weren't part of the conspiracy.....look at Obamas writings....now i just see all that as part of the deception before the election to help sell obama to the american people
These guys have him as ENFJ but i'm not convinced
Personality Types
Idealist (Choleric)
| ENFJ | Pedagogue | Control. The conscientious men and women, strong moral principles, work very hard. Obsessive-Compulsive. |
[TD="width: 29%"]Entertainer,
writer,
politician,
psychologist,
program designer[/TD]
[TD="width: 37%"]Mohandas K. Gandhi,
Bill Clinton,
George Harrison,
Adolf Hitler,
Martin Luther,
George Bernard Shaw,
Margaret Thatcher[/TD]
http://www.uniphiz.com/digital_physiognomy/personality-types.htm
I think ENTJ is more likely especially after debating with some
http://www.entjpersonality.info/p/famous-entjs.html
Famous ENTJs
Below is a list of great, popular or unpopular but surely well known ENTJs who have made a huge impact on world's history. Celebrities, historical figures and leaders of all kinds:
[TABLE="class: tr-caption-container"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tr-caption, align: center"]Famous ENTJ Warren Buffet[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
- Margaret Thatcher (former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom)
- Oskar Schindler (German industrialist credited with saving almost 1,200 Jews during the Holocaust)
- Vladimir Putin (former president and prime minister of Russia)
- Tony Robbins (self-help author and motivational speaker)
- Simon Cowell (music executive, television producer and entrepreneur)
- Napoleon Bonaparte (historical figure, military and political leader of France)
- Hannibal (Carthaginian military commander and tactician)
- Gaius Julius Caesar (Roman military and political leader)
- Winston Churchill (former Prime Minister of the UK, great wartime leader)
- Adolf Hitler (Nazi dictator)
- Franklin D. Roosevelt (American President)
- Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (1st President of Turkey)
- Dave Letterman (American television host and comedian)
- Jerry Seinfeld (stand-up comedian, actor and writer)
- Edward Teller (theoretical physicist, father of the hydrogen bomb)
- Warren Buffett (investor, industrialist, and philanthropist)
- Donald Trump (business magnate, socialite, author and television personality)
- Hillary Clinton (US Secretary of State)
- Charles de Gaulle (French general and statesman)
- Angela Merkel (Chancellor of Germany)
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LucyJr
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Then you should be able to explain how it is that the first christians worshiped Jesus as the Son of God...surely the "black dodge" didn't translated their minds. I hope you understand what I mean...the theory simply contradicts the facts, because the first christians worshiped only Jesus as the Son of God, so I don't think the Bible was misstranslated.
Ok...I understand that this is your philosophy, and it might be even true. Do you think it can stand the test of logical consistency?
I'm sure there are really nice theories with regard to the Old Testament. If I were to play the devil advocate, I could invent one righ now for you.
But that is not the problem...the problem is...is that true? Because maybe the Old testament is true, and your whole theory is false, and every other theory.
So I suggest to change your point of view...if you think
"Ah, this story of the flood sounds like this myth, and this story of the cross with Jesus sounds like this myth and this myth. So yeah, everything makes sense now. This myth with this myth, forced by this yellow lodge created this cult, which in many years become religion known as Christianity...yeah, everything makes super sense now!"
But the question is muir...is it true? Or are you just playing with myths, creating ingenious theories...the question you have to answer yourself with all honesty is if it is true...otherwise, alot of thinks make sense apparently, but it doesn't mean they are necessarely true.
I use biographies and autobiographies, and every information that I think is sound.
I don't think that is true, firstly. Because Socionics identify INFJs as the main and most numerous type in Russia. They named INFJs as their national type.
Secondly, even if it were like you say, it doesn't have anything to do with wether the Socionics descriptions are accurate or not. To suppose it has anything to do with it, is a logical absurdity.
My perception of the INFJ type is from personal perception and experience. How about that? And I have a great variety of exeperience with INFJ type.
BrokenDaniel
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I think ENFJ may be even more likely. He was overtly histrionic in speeches, and had huge artistic inclinations.
What's interesting about him, (i don't too much about his life, but given how much attention he gets, it's impossible not to know at least his name nowadays, lol) it's how much psychological speculations sorrounded his persona. Some say he was a suppressed homosexual, some that he was schizophrenic, mommy issues, inferiority complex, batsh!t crazy overall. However, he's not the first perpetuator of mass genocide in history, not even in recent history, so, i don't know, seems interesting how much justifications of lunacy sorrounded his historical figure, also the fascination that has sorrounded him until today.
muir
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When i see his name amongst that other list of ENTJ's i think: ''yup he fits in there quite well''
To give him his dues he was by all accounts very brave winning a medal for courage in the trenches, but bravery isn't everything
he failed to get into art school because he was crap at artistic creativity and art....sound like an INFJ? No....sounds like another type though
BrokenDaniel
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Could be...
My reasons to think he was a feeler, were his expressions, there's video in the internet that show a really pissed off Hitler ranting against his subordinates (it's fncking hilarious btw, because the subtitles adress things that are completely unrelated to the scene, like Hitler found out... (insert a current and completely unrelated event)), in a really emotional fashion, he seemed out of control, dripping with emotion, also his expressions seemed to suggest that he was higly sensitive, seems like Extraverted Feeling lead. ENTJs don't seem to have much trouble at keeping it together to accomplish their goals, or at least act like they are.
I can't argue this further, don't know too much about him, and i'm aware of the mythologization that surrounds him, so i'll give you the benefit of doubt
muir
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I think people often do deify gurus...it happens all the time
I visited a temple in India where the guru had put a mirror up at the front of the temple and he told his students to respect whatever they saw in the mirror
ie he was using it is a device to help people become more self realised but after he died his followers took the mirror down and put a picture of him up instead...now they worship him instead of the divinity they see in the mirror...they have deified him and are now looking outwards instead of looking inwards
"Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes." Carl Jung (the kingdom of heaven is within-jesus)
Also bare in mind that the Christian religion template of a guy on a cross dying and being resurrected was an old template that pre-dated jesus going back to Horus and krishna and other solar deities where they were personifications of the sun which dies as it drops beneath the horizon each day and then is reborn the next day
If you want to understand the bible i suggest you study qabalah
Thats what the priesthood was working with
I perceive a certain person in Jesus....as you can see i quoted him above as an example of an INFJ leader; the part where he challenges the money changers resonates strongly with me!
Now even if he didn't physically exist someone writing the story has managed to capture an INFJ teaching a non dualist message very well!
But overshadowing the issue of whether or not jesus was real are two major issues
Firstly a bunch of books were excluded from the bible (apocryphal)...something like 50 i think if i remember rightly
Then there have been translations and edits done all by powerful institutions with vested interests
If you want to see a modern day example of this process at work then look into the drama surrounding the translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls and how the only agnostic member of the team John Allegro was defamed by the rest of the international team who were all ordained catholic priests for his translations which threatened the catholic churches version of history; i'm reading an interesting book about it at the moment called: ''Astrotheology and shamanism-Christianitys pagan roots'' by Jan Irvin and Andrew Rutajit...it's worth a look
The other major issue is the jesus as solar deity issue
That's what i'm saying...autobiographies should be seen as highly suspect; biographies too can be dodgy because if you think about it...who are the people who are motivated to write about a person? Often they are either someone who admires the subject of their attentions in which case it will be biased towards them or it is someone who hates the subject of their book in which case they will seek to paint them in as bad a light as possible...either way its likely to be skewed
A truely impartial view might not be that common
Its like the guru with the mirror...go back to the words and deeds of the person (judge a tree by its fruits)
Yes because they wanted to persecute a lot of people!
Any troublesome artistic types would have been seen as highly suspect by some sort of people who weren't very artistic or artistically creative ie the black lodge...ie people who cannot release...who hold onto all the rage, the bile, the bitterness, the anger, the sexual tension etc
I'd go with MBTI...it all adds up regarding INFJ's and there is not the motive to demonise artistic types that there was in the USSR
Imo the spiritual path is often about letting go
No you have experience of what you thought was the INFJ type
You've been asessing the wrong people
If you want to knownthe INFJ type and what their essence is then look at the people i have mentioned in this thread
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muir
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The most dangerous people are not the emotional people...they release their emotions and then they move past it
The dangerous people are the ones who are out of touch with their emotions and who cannot release so the poison is a slow but consistent release...they're more calculating
Also there is this idea of people expressing their opposite functions when they are under extreme stress...shadow functions
What do you think....do you think a guy who was nearly killed a bunch of times in the trenches including being gassed only to see his country betrayed, who then got involved with a bunch of industrialist and financial ocultists before surviving a hail of bullets during the munich putsch only because his body guard managed to save his life by pulling him to the ground with such force that he dislocated hitlers shoulder but took the bullets intended for hitler in the process (and died in hitlers arms), before then being thrown in the slammer might have been a bit stressed?
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Cornerstone
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Good points in the post above. But does this explain or excuse these people? At what point, despite emotional manipulation, are humans still responsible for their actions?
LucyJr
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Do you even know what you are talking about?
Emotional people lack power, because they are very emotive.
Unemotional people have emotions, but keep their emotions in check, under the ruleship of reason. They rarely do stupid things, because they are not lead by their emotions.
What Broken Daniel said is a very good point, and his observation is true. Emotional people are very easily lead by emotions, and especially by anger. Hitler was like that.
LucyJr
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I think people often do deify gurus...it happens all the time
I visited a temple in India where the guru had put a mirror up at the front of the temple and he told his students to respect whatever they saw in the mirror
ie he was using it is a device to help people become more self realised but after he died his followers took the mirror down and put a picture of him up instead...now they worship him instead of the divinity they see in the mirror...they have deified him and are now looking outwards instead of looking inwards
"Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes." Carl Jung (the kingdom of heaven is within-jesus)
Also bare in mind that the Christian religion template of a guy on a cross dying and being resurrected was an old template that pre-dated jesus going back to Horus and krishna and other solar deities where they were personifications of the sun which dies as it drops beneath the horizon each day and then is reborn the next day
If you want to understand the bible i suggest you study qabalah
Thats what the priesthood was working with
I perceive a certain person in Jesus....as you can see i quoted him above as an example of an INFJ leader; the part where he challenges the money changers resonates strongly with me!
Now even if he didn't physically exist someone writing the story has managed to capture an INFJ teaching a non dualist message very well!
But overshadowing the issue of whether or not jesus was real are two major issues
Firstly a bunch of books were excluded from the bible (apocryphal)...something like 50 i think if i remember rightly
Then there have been translations and edits done all by powerful institutions with vested interests
If you want to see a modern day example of this process at work then look into the drama surrounding the translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls and how the only agnostic member of the team John Allegro was defamed by the rest of the international team who were all ordained catholic priests for his translations which threatened the catholic churches version of history; i'm reading an interesting book about it at the moment called: ''Astrotheology and shamanism-Christianitys pagan roots'' by Jan Irvin and Andrew Rutajit...it's worth a look
The other major issue is the jesus as solar deity issue
That's what i'm saying...autobiographies should be seen as highly suspect; biographies too can be dodgy because if you think about it...who are the people who are motivated to write about a person? Often they are either someone who admires the subject of their attentions in which case it will be biased towards them or it is someone who hates the subject of their book in which case they will seek to paint them in as bad a light as possible...either way its likely to be skewed
A truely impartial view might not be that common
Its like the guru with the mirror...go back to the words and deeds of the person (judge a tree by its fruits)
Yes because they wanted to persecute a lot of people!
Any troublesome artistic types would have been seen as highly suspect by some sort of people who weren't very artistic or artistically creative ie the black lodge...ie people who cannot release...who hold onto all the rage, the bile, the bitterness, the anger, the sexual tension etc
I'd go with MBTI...it all adds up regarding INFJ's and there is not the motive to demonise artistic types that there was in the USSR
Imo the spiritual path is often about letting go
No you have experience of what you thought was the INFJ type
You've been asessing the wrong people
If you want to knownthe INFJ type and what their essence is then look at the people i have mentioned in this thread
*face palms* *face palms*
I don't even know what to say.
muir
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I already explained to you about shadow functions
If Hitler as an ENTJ was extremely stressed and i thinks its fair to say he was then he would express his opposite functions
But in general there is nothing wrong with emotion as long as people find a healthy expression for it; we are emotional creatures; but some people cannot express themselves....they keep all that emotion inside and it then poisons their soul and seeps out into their life in negative ways
that is a key word here: EXPRESSION
Every human behaviour is simply an expression but the black lodge are not able to express themselves properly and they grow hateful of any people who can...creativity and artistic expression is something they can't do
Hitler failed to find healthy release through artistic expression and his expressions then took a very dark turn
Have a look at that list of famous ENTJ's...they are mostly conquerors, as was Hitler
Black culture has always been very expressive and the black lodge HATE black culture and always look to appropriate it and subvert it and bend it to their own will:
[video=youtube;ZR_e4JsJQC4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR_e4JsJQC4[/video]
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muir
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Just open your mind
[video=youtube;BtiMw0-akAM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtiMw0-akAM[/video]
God bless!
LucyJr
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[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]
ENTjs are not conquerors. ENTJs can be quite shy but are hidding it, just like INTJs do it. I guess you never met ENTJs in real life to see how much of a conquerors they really are. You just read MBTI description and take them for granted.
ESTPs play the role (supposedly) role of the conqueror. They are natural tacticians, with a cast-iron self control and a will of steel. ESTPs are the natural leaders in a military movement.
If there is a ESTP the kind of "hard" one (like my brother is), he moves like he has electricity in all his body and movements, with cat-like smooth walk and self-confidence. They just dominate by strenght of will in any situation, any type, be it ENTJ or even ESTJ.
Yet still, they are human, and they DO have feelings. My brother is very sentimental, despite his tough appearence. Inside, he is sentimental, and toward his girlfriend romantic and emotive, like a little child. Yet still he is very strong, because that's how ESTPs are, and that's their natural strenght and ability.
ENTjs are not conquerors. ENTJs can be quite shy but are hidding it, just like INTJs do it. I guess you never met ENTJs in real life to see how much of a conquerors they really are. You just read MBTI description and take them for granted.
ESTPs play the role (supposedly) role of the conqueror. They are natural tacticians, with a cast-iron self control and a will of steel. ESTPs are the natural leaders in a military movement.
If there is a ESTP the kind of "hard" one (like my brother is), he moves like he has electricity in all his body and movements, with cat-like smooth walk and self-confidence. They just dominate by strenght of will in any situation, any type, be it ENTJ or even ESTJ.
Yet still, they are human, and they DO have feelings. My brother is very sentimental, despite his tough appearence. Inside, he is sentimental, and toward his girlfriend romantic and emotive, like a little child. Yet still he is very strong, because that's how ESTPs are, and that's their natural strenght and ability.