INFJ or INTJ?

Ok, maybe feel right or not is not the best way to put it, but Fe is a judging function, so it would be applied on the information received. Meaning that it would judge that someone is angry, or judge that the general athmosphere is tense.

Where in this model do I find the action that follows judgement ? I mean, if someone is feeling sad, I might put my arm around her (or not).
Ok then you are in clear :)

As far as I can tell the model is more focussed on information processing. What you do with the information is still up to you personally. There is another model (the Enneagram) we like to use in the forum that focusses on behavioural expressions. They aren't mutually exclusive, they kind of overlap without interfering with one another. What the MBTI could do, as I see it, is to perhaps imply a likelihood to act in a certain way in accordance with how information was processed.

Think about how many things you have to consider before you act at all. Past experiences, psychological issues, energy levels - anything could have an impact on how you act in the moment.
 
Ok, maybe feel right or not is not the best way to put it, but Fe is a judging function, so it would be applied on the information received. Meaning that it would judge that someone is angry, or judge that the general athmosphere is tense.

Where in this model do I find the action that follows judgement ? I mean, if someone is feeling sad, I might put my arm around her (or not).

It's a bit obvious by the way you write that you lean more on the side of infj rather than intj. INTJs operate in a sort of deconstruction mode whereas INFJs are more sort of compositionally grounded, if that makes sense.
 
To clear that up: I wasn't referring to you nor addressing you in particular.
Have a good night.

Sorry, my dear, I was making a joke. I really do need to be balanced! It is a good thing for me to hear, and I'm glad you said it -- even if it was to everyone.

And INTJ:

Si retrieves internal input (from memory?) and Ne external patterns (?). Then they apply logic to it (Te) and they pass it through their internal value system?

Oh, no. INTJ is not Ne/Si. It is Ni/Se like INFJ. The only difference is INTJ is Te/Fi and INFJ is Fe/Ti.

Here is a chart that I always use:

meyers briggs function stacks.webp
 
Oh, no. INTJ is not Ne/Si. It is Ni/Se like INFJ. The only difference is INTJ is Te/Fi and INFJ is Fe/Ti.

Here is a chart that I always use:

Easy way to remember: everything is exactly the same except T and F are switched. The i/e stay in the same place tho ;)
 
INTJ is not Ne/Si. It is Ni/Se like INFJ

Yeah, I mixed it up, I was too tired I guess. The night brought me insight, anyway. I think I neglected that we have all functions available, we just have a preferred mode to work in. Of course I have Se and Si, Fe and Fi. That strengthens my idea that I am INFJ with a better developed Te (not Ti, but the INTJ's Te) because of my engineering / programming education, skills and surroundings. In such an environment, Fe is not likely to grow much I suppose.
 
Since I don't have a chart at hand all the time, I cracked the pattern code down in my mind to this (See left circles. Everything from the middle to the right is just visual explanation):

mbti code.webp

(Maybe you find it useful as well to generate the stacks whenever need to be.)


INFJ > Ji > clockwise
rest builds up on the concept of contrast/juxtaposition
 
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Yeah, I mixed it up, I was too tired I guess. The night brought me insight, anyway. I think I neglected that we have all functions available, we just have a preferred mode to work in. Of course I have Se and Si, Fe and Fi. That strengthens my idea that I am INFJ with a better developed Te (not Ti, but the INTJ's Te) because of my engineering / programming education, skills and surroundings. In such an environment, Fe is not likely to grow much I suppose.
It makes very much sense. If you concentrate a lot on Te, Fe is going to suffer because it is not its natural complementary function. But if you still prefer to use it in other walks of life, why would it not develop some as well? I am wondering, however, if that has implications on Ti not developing well.
One question: what makes you think that having this better developed Te doesn't make you an INTJ? What do you think is the state of your judging functions in relation to one another?


Since I don't have a chart at hand all the time, I cracked the pattern code down in my mind to this (See left circles. Everything from the middle to the right is just visual explanation):

View attachment 46228

(Maybe you find it useful as well to generate the stacks whenever need to be.)


INFJ > Ji > clockwise
rest builds up on the concept of contrast/juxtaposition
I make charts myself too, I posted one of them in my blog as well. :)

Sometimes, you just need to make one to express a certain dynamic. I think it's beneficial that you make them yourself to properly ground the information in a way that makes most sense to you.
I don't think I understand what you mean by Ji/Pe (I suppose you mean Judging and Perceiving, but we have two of them which have different orientations, so I cannot follow your reasoning directly). Could/would you explain it to me?
 
I make charts myself too, I posted one of them in my blog as well. :)
Oh, you did? I figured you tend towards this as well but I didn't know ^^

Sometimes, you just need to make one to express a certain dynamic. I think it's beneficial that you make them yourself to properly ground the information in a way that makes most sense to you.
I very much agree ^^

I don't think I understand what you mean by Ji/Pe (I suppose you mean Judging and Perceiving, but we have two of them which have different orientations, so I cannot follow your reasoning directly). Could/would you explain it to me?
Sure! Jep..

clockwise (start perceiving - end perceiving)
Ji = Judging types (introverted) .....INFJ
Pe = Perceiving types (extraverted) ...ENFP

counter-clockwise (start judging - end judging)
Je = Judging types (extraverted) ...ENFJ
Pi = Perceiving types (introverted) ....INTP


The stacks follow some rules:
  • i and e always switch like a rythm.. (N)i / (F)e / (T)i / (S)e
  • stack always starts with your preference (either I > Xi or E > Xe)
  • first part of the stack ist always in the name as capital letters (I) N F (J)
  • second part is the total opposite (N>) S and (F>) T

  • Ji and Pe are directional siblings which go clockwise (for example INFJ.. means they start on the first capital letter N.. and due to I it's Ni ...following is clockwise, therefore the second capital letter F which gets an e due to the rythm... Fe..go further clockwise you hit the counterpart T.. (Ti) and then finally S..(Se) ) = Ni-Fe-Ti-Se
  • Je and Pi are directional siblings which go counter-clockwise (for example ENFJ.. starts with the second capital letter F..and due to E it's Fe ..following is counter clockwise, therefore the first capital letter N which gets an i due to the rhythm ..Ni.. go further counter clockwise you hit the counterpart S.. (Se) and finally T.. (Ti) ) = Fe-Ni-Se-Ti
  • it works with all of them... no remembering by heart necessary.

To sum it up: you only need to know Ji is clockwise ...
(the directional sibling is the counterpart Pe.. and the other pair that goes counter clockwise is Je + Pi)

Explanation is way more confusing than it actually is :)



It's totally a circle thing ...again ;)


mbti code_ex.webp mbti code_ex3.webp
(reduced details / example of INFJ and ENFP)

mbti code_ex2.webp mbti code_ex4.webp
(example of ENFJ and INFP)
 
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So you think the aptitude (or dare I say potential?) for each function to be developed just as well as in a Fx-dominant person is there all the time? Ready to be developed in spite of our developed preferences? Or do you think there is a limit to it?

I think we all use all the functions, pretty well all of the time, but we don't have awareness, conscious control or proficiency in many of them - according to our type. A reasonable analogy is handedness. I'm right handed but still use my left hand for a lot of things, but it doesn't work as well as my right and works best when both are engaged together in a common task, like driving or playing a musical instrument, or typing on the keyboard I'm using now for example. If I try writing with my left hand, I can just about make it legible, but it looks awful and takes ages, and does my head in :sweatsmile:. I did persist once in my teens out of curiosity and got fairly ok at writing but it wasn't fun and I've lost that now.

It might be useful to look at this interview with Katherine Myers who is Isabel Myers' daughter in law - Topic 8 is the most relevant to this discussion, but the whole interview is very useful.
http://tap3x.net/EMBTI/j4kmyers.html

Sorry :unhappy:, I feel like I am close to understanding, combined with being tired means I am getting jumpy. Time to go to bed.
It's a bit obvious by the way you write that you lean more on the side of infj rather than intj.

If I were you, I'd read through this thread again one more time, refresh your understanding of the description of infj from an mbti text book if you have one, or one of the main mbti websites, then let it alone for a few days. You will go round in circles otherwise - so let your Ni do its work without flooding it with too much thinking - I've been there and done that :sweatsmile::tearsofjoy:. You may find the answer just jumps out at you in a few days time.

Am I right that you mentioned you are in your late 40s? Jung was always very clear that people start developing away from their main type in the second half of their lives and this can confuse the way you complete type questionnaires, or experience your preferences. You need to be aware of this, but your primary and secondary should still be clear because they will feel the most easy and natural to use once you have grasped what they are.

Just one more thought - the way you shut out your brother and sister is very typical of infjs. We are so sensitive to the negative feelings from major inter-relational difficulties that we may terminate contact as a self-preservation thing. There's a lot in the mbti literature about the infj "doorslam".

By the way, I scored a 5 in the enneagram. Slightly towards wing 4, so 5w4.

As you can see from my personal details, I'm Enneagram 5 with 4 too, with 9 in the 3rd place of the enneagram trigram - this is consistent over several tests over some period of time. @Wyote , I seem to remember seeing a comment from yourself some months ago about this being unusual for infjs. It certainly puts us firmly on the intellectual end of the mbti spectrum. I think this could be why you are getting cross talk with the F v T thing because I've had the same issue in the past
 
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One question: what makes you think that having this better developed Te doesn't make you an INTJ? What do you think is the state of your judging functions in relation to one another?

I favor INFJ because I am pretty sure I use Fe far more than Fi. Fi really doesn't sound like me. I am aware of the feelings of others, but lesser aware of my own feelings. Because I connect very good with people (maybe less caring on a deeper level). Because I can't say no very well and when someone asks me for help, I nearly always respond with a yes, of course.
That kinda rules out INTJ I suppose.
The only logical conclusion I found so far is that I score high on Te, like a INTJ. And I ca justify that because I am highly into engineering/programming. It's a theory :-)

I am not sure where it leaves my devlopment of Ti, or how my T relates to F, I think I'll need to understand MBTI a bit more.
 
If I were you, I'd read through this thread again one more time, refresh your understanding of the description of infj from an mbti text book if you have one, or one of the main mbti websites, then let it alone for a few days. You will go round in circles otherwise - so let your Ni do its work without flooding it with too much thinking - I've been there and done that :sweatsmile::tearsofjoy:. You may find the answer just jumps out at you in a few days time.

Am I right that you mentioned you are in your late 40s? Jung was always very clear that people start developing away from their main type in the second half of their lives and this can confuse the way you complete type questionnaires, or experience your preferences. You need to be aware of this, but your primary and secondary should still be clear because they will feel the most easy and natural to use once you have grasped what they are.

Just one more thought - the way you shut out your brother and sister is very typical of infjs. We are so sensitive to the negative feelings from major inter-relational difficulties that we may terminate contact as a self-preservation thing. There's a lot in the mbti literature about the infj "doorslam".

Yeah, I wil leave it alone for a few days. I know that helps, I knew that before I knew about MBTI ;-)
And yeah, I read about the doorslam. I was under a lot of pressure then...but I am still ok with it. And I feel better than ever, I am way more balanced than I used to be. There is an upside on getting older :-)
 
Explanation is way more confusing than it actually is :)
It probably is, though or as I still cannot follow. It sounds to me like this logic would make more sense to me if applied to socionics.

I'm Enneagram 5 with 4 too, with 8 in the 3rd place of the enneagram trigram
8? but on the left it says 9 :confounded:

@Headstorm my tritype is 147, the "visionary"/idealistic archetype (1w2, 4w5, 7w6). It says I should be more balanced than others, but really I think it gets me into more trouble for being such a stickler to norms while my Te is simultaneously unfit/defying those same norms.
 
It probably is, though or as I still cannot follow. It sounds to me like this logic would make more sense to me if applied to socionics.

Don't worry ^^" It took me quite some time to get there tbh. Take some time.. rushing is the enemy ;)
Plus.. you get in contact with this in reverse.. I mean you see the outcome first from pondering alot over MBTI over months why some types are supposed to go well together in daily live and some don't..
 
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