INFJs and Enneagram

[charlatan]

@Ginny -- why don't I strike you as 1 primary (if 1 I'd say 1w9 for me)

 

[Ginny]

@Ginny -- why don't I strike you as 1 primary (if 1 I'd say 1w9 for me)

Because you don't come across as angry. That's why I mentioned the instinctual variants, that perhaps I am only primarily angry because I am a sx, so I might be wrong.
I am obsessed with doing something the right way, so much so that it can inhibit me from acting at all. I think about acting, the different possibilities, but it can take me months to actually get around to doing it, taking the plunge, unless I know deeply that this is the path to pursue. It is not something cerebral, really, not even entirely about morals and ethics, but an ineffable yet simple quality.

You strike me as more cerebral, and cautious, and not as ruled by the 1 as I am. You know what I mean?

 

[charlatan]

@Ginny -- that's the weird thing, I'm very angry to those who know me closely. But I agree I'm very cautious with reasoning/cerebral in style too. I think they go together as I always felt nothing is to be gained by not aiming for perfect rationality...and most of what angers me in the world seems a consequence of not everyone trying hard enough at that/unreasonable situations.

 

[Ginny]

I think they go together as I always felt nothing is to be gained by not aiming for perfect rationality

Perhaps that is exaclty where the difference lies - rationality. The 5 is the rational one, more so than the 1. The 1 desires to be right because they can't bear to be wrong. This is the reason for a pursuit of knowledge, rather than rationality. Rationality is a side-effect for the 1, this is why they are often mistyped as fives.
The question is: do you think you are ruled by anger, or is the anger a side-effect?

 

[charlatan]

The question is: do you think you are ruled by anger, or is the anger a side-effect?

I think for me it's not so much not being able to bear being wrong as not being able to bear being unreasonable. That is, if I think I'm sincerely trying my hardest, and something is tricky, I won't fault myself. But I am pretty obsessive compulsive with trying to see every angle/not be unreasonable for not trying.

I'll swallow my anger if it was based on something that doesn't check out with rationality. I do feel a "slave" to reason.

I think when I was youngest I was more 'purely' angry, and over time grow more cerebral because I sorta tell myself "go sit down" if reason says so....but I haven't lost the fundamental spirit.


I can tell you the source of my anger: I don't accept pragmatic answers. That is, "that's just the way it is" type answers. If there isn't a deeper good reason, I just sorta react saying "so what?" I'm perfectly happy just rejecting reality. I won't deny that it is how it is (that would be irrational) but I have a hard time with people who go with the flow/are pragmatists.

 

[Ren]

@Ren what aspects render you torn between 5w4 and 4w5? Have you looked at disintegration and reintegration (the arrows)? It might be illuminating.

I'm quite self-absorbed. Not that this necessarily equates with 4 but in my mind it sort of conflicts with the 5's detachment. I often feel alienated from others and the way I tend to naturally deal with it is through the idea that I'm somehow different. It's true that my style and writings are quite analytical but I wonder sometimes if that's not partly a way of cultivating a kind of unique identity. My philosophical interests revolve around questions of meaning, which might be another expression of coping with a basic experiential feeling of alienation from the world.

Just some thoughts, nothing definite.

 

[Ginny]

I'm quite self-absorbed. Not that this necessarily equates with 4 but in my mind it sort of conflicts with the 5's detachment. I often feel alienated from others and the way I tend to naturally deal with it is through the idea that I'm somehow different. It's true that my style and writings are quite analytical but I wonder sometimes if that's not partly a way of cultivating a kind of unique identity. My philosophical interests revolve around questions of meaning, which might be another expression of coping with a basic experiential feeling of alienation from the world.

Just some thoughts, nothing definite.

So at least some of it depends on your definition of detachment? What if what you call "self-absorbed" is actually what they meant by "detachment"?? You could still be doing the one thing primarily, but for the motive of the other. As the motive isn't what is represented in your behaviour (but on your mind), which is the predominant one, the one that is you on a primitive level, all motives taken out of the equation?

 

[Ren]

So at least some of it depends on your definition of detachment? What if what you call "self-absorbed" is actually what they meant by "detachment"?

Yeah, it totally could be. It's hard to say, probably due to my limited knowledge of Enneagram. From looking at the disintegration of 4 (2) and 5 (7), disintegration into 7 seems more like me. I don't think I seem very 2ish when I'm stressed, however I can be quite impulsive / indulgent. I don't know if that suggests 7, a dark version of it maybe. The concept of being in the grip of Se speaks to me more.

 

[Ginny]

Yeah, it totally could be. It's hard to say, probably due to my limited knowledge of Enneagram. From looking at the disintegration of 4 (2) and 5 (7), disintegration into 7 seems more like me. I don't think I seem very 2ish when I'm stressed, however I can be quite impulsive / indulgent. I don't know if that suggests 7, a dark version of it maybe. The concept of being in the grip of Se speaks to me more.

The opposite is true for me. 7 is my direction of growth, and 4 my direction of disintegration. But as 4 is already part of me, it probably depends on the state of health of 4 I exhibit. Once I get down to 2 it probably gets dangerous. I'm just sort of whinging it right now.

Always assuming the healthy parts here: If the behaviour of 7 can be attributed to Se, then developing Se would be the optimum strategy for me in terms of growth, wouldn't it?

@everyone else, you're free to join in. I'd appreciate some input here.


I've just been looking at the system again, arrowwise, and the 5s growth/integration would be towards 8, "self-confident, decisive, willful, and confrontational" (I think the terms are descriptions for increasingly less heathy stages from left to right). Would you say that is true for you?

 

[hush]

Always assuming the healthy parts here: If the behaviour of 7 can be attributed to Se, then developing Se would be the optimum strategy for me in terms of growth, wouldn't it?

@everyone else, you're free to join in. I'd appreciate some input here.

That does make sense to me. I don't think there's exactly a direct correlation between the two, but when I think type 7, Se is the first function that comes to mind. This makes the struggle towards self-actualization, so to speak, even more difficult given that it's an INFJ's inferior function you'd need to nurture and encourage. As ID stated in another thread, conscious effort helps to stay present (Se), but as an Ni-dominant, it's also necessary to dwell in that nebulous Ni mindspace. Tricky.

This growth and stress business is making me increasingly want to pin down my enneagram... because I tend to switch between 2 and 5 - and stress for 2 disintegrates to 8, whereas growth for 5 is... 8. Hooray, opposites. Is there some foolproof 2 vs. 5 test out there?

(when I've taken a tritype test, I've gotten 259, but there are mixed thoughts about the validity of tritype)

 

[Ren]

I've just been looking at the system again, arrowwise, and the 5s growth/integration would be towards 8, "self-confident, decisive, willful, and confrontational" (I think the terms are descriptions for increasingly less heathy stages from left to right). Would you say that is true for you?

I'd have to look into it and engage in some reflection/introspection. It's not that easy to say. I'll let you know if I come up with something! I don't know if you know this but @Lady Jolanda thinks I'm a four

This growth and stress business is making me increasingly want to pin down my enneagram... because I tend to switch between 2 and 5 - and stress for 2 disintegrates to 8, whereas growth for 5 is... 8. Hooray, opposites. Is there some foolproof 2 vs. 5 test out there?

It's true that you really seem like you're a bit of both ^^ I don't know enough about Enneagram to help you out, though I'd say 259 sounds like a fair tritype.

 

[Ginny]

That does make sense to me. I don't think there's exactly a direct correlation between the two, but when I think type 7, Se is the first function that comes to mind. This makes the struggle towards self-actualization, so to speak, even more difficult given that it's an INFJ's inferior function you'd need to nurture and encourage. As ID stated in another thread, conscious effort helps to stay present (Se), but as an Ni-dominant, it's also necessary to dwell in that nebulous Ni mindspace. Tricky.

This growth and stress business is making me increasingly want to pin down my enneagram... because I tend to switch between 2 and 5 - and stress for 2 disintegrates to 8, whereas growth for 5 is... 8. Hooray, opposites. Is there some foolproof 2 vs. 5 test out there?

(when I've taken a tritype test, I've gotten 259, but there are mixed thoughts about the validity of tritype)

It could be that the tritype explains inconsistencies in our nature by claiming that we have one dominant of each centre. I'd say that we have the potential to be any type, but that the dominant of the dominant types, the first number, describes our fundamental attitude towards our environment, and as such is the only part in the tritype that is actually affected by disintegration. It doesn't explain my tritype to me (considering dynamics), but it could make sense. It's like the other two types are modifiers to the actual dominant type.

I have what I call meine schlaue Seite, where I can look up stuff on the tritypes. The only halfway complete source I could find (without buying stuff). 259 is on page 2, the link is here.

 

[Lady Jolanda]

Heh. Ginny I know I used to disintegrate to a 1 and now to a 2. That suggests 1) your enneagram can change or 2) multiple attitudes in your tritype can disintegrate.
Maybe there are other options as well but I'm tipsy from my uncle's birthday party.

Hush, 7 is just as much Ne as Se.

 

[Ginny]

The funny thing about the 1 is that they suppress feelings. Since their direction of growth is 7, does this mean that indulgence is the way a growing one deals with feelings? It's basically the same thing, only instead of suppressing emotions, it is ignoring them by doing something else. How is that growth?

 

[hush]

Hush, 7 is just as much Ne as Se.

True! I spoke before adequately gathering my thoughts, but since trying to gather all my thoughts before speaking can be like trying to trudge through 8 feet of snow with a ball and chain tied 'round my ankle... >.>

@Ginny I've perused that tritype link before, and have only ever found one other site with comparable info - comparable because it's just the same stuff copy/pasted. Also, does indulgence have to mean ignoring emotions for something else, or can it simply mean giving into those emotions, instead of attempting to ignore them? Just go for it, dive in, take that plunge you've been wanting to take?

 

[Ginny]

@Ginny I've perused that tritype link before, and have only ever found one other site with comparable info - comparable because it's just the same stuff copy/pasted. Also, does indulgence have to mean ignoring emotions for something else, or can it simply mean giving into those emotions, instead of attempting to ignore them? Just go for it, dive in, take that plunge you've been wanting to take?

I noticed that too.

It would result in very destructive behaviour. And a lot of crying.

 

[Wyote]

That does make sense to me. I don't think there's exactly a direct correlation between the two, but when I think type 7, Se is the first function that comes to mind. This makes the struggle towards self-actualization, so to speak, even more difficult given that it's an INFJ's inferior function you'd need to nurture and encourage. As ID stated in another thread, conscious effort helps to stay present (Se), but as an Ni-dominant, it's also necessary to dwell in that nebulous Ni mindspace. Tricky.

This growth and stress business is making me increasingly want to pin down my enneagram... because I tend to switch between 2 and 5 - and stress for 2 disintegrates to 8, whereas growth for 5 is... 8. Hooray, opposites. Is there some foolproof 2 vs. 5 test out there?

(when I've taken a tritype test, I've gotten 259, but there are mixed thoughts about the validity of tritype)

You are a 2 if you can confirm that you are currently not experiencing a shit ton of stress.
If you are currently losing it over there, and you are a 5, then you're doing a damn fine job hiding all the scatterbrained abuse and debauchery you are currently involved in.
Not ruling that out, just saying.

 

[Wyote]

It's like the other two types are modifiers to the actual dominant type

Yep!

 

[hush]

You are a 2 if you can confirm that you are currently not experiencing a shit ton of stress.
If you are currently losing it over there, and you are a 5, then you're doing a damn fine job hiding all the scatterbrained abuse and debauchery you are currently involved in.
Not ruling that out, just saying.

I, b-but... what about certain external factors causing stress? Like if the world is exploding and fireballs covered in mutant, flame-resistant giant spiders are raining down from the sky, while all flora steadily converts into man-eating variations of Venus flytraps before my eyes, wouldn't it be reasonable to be manifesting symptoms of stress, regardless of enneagram?

I can neither confirm, nor deny that shit ton of stress... ... ......... >.>

 

[Wyote]

I can neither confirm, nor deny that shit ton of stress... ... ......... >.>

the world is exploding and fireballs covered in mutant, flame-resistant giant spiders are raining down from the sky, while all flora steadily converts into man-eating variations of Venus flytraps before my eyes

A typical Wednesday afternoon in my mind sometimes, eh.
Comparisons make everything tricky. You gotta answer it for yourself :tiphat::tongue: