INFJs and Vegetarianism

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=1814]invisible[/MENTION]

I find that eating anything which lives makes me think about ethics, but it's something that I have to do. It some times concerns me that plants might feel pain which is why I don't really have house plants. I grow my plants outside and try to make them as happy as possible, even when I'm going to eat them.

I don't understand why people have to say that humans are conscious but animals are less conscious. Isn't that just arbitrary? At what level of consciousness does it become o.k. to eat a living thing? Do we actually know that plants don't feel pain anyway, or do we say that to make ourselves feel better?

I feel empathy for animals but I also feel for plants too. I don't like to hurt animals unnecessarily but I also don't like to hurt plants either. I don't like to see cut flowers that are just going to die anyway for someone's amusement.

Someone gave me a marigold in a small pot a while back, in a pot that was entirely too small for it. It was obviously meant to be a temporary novelty that wouldn't last, which bothered me because it's a living thing. I took it out of the pot and saw that the poor thing was already root bound and sick, and half the roots were rotted. I tried to save it but it had too much rot and eventually caught a plant disease and it died. That made me sad. Luckily I was able to harvest seeds from it before it got very sick and I was able to grow some of them to make up for it. I feel like I have to replace that plant.

 

[invisible]

[MENTION=1814]invisible[/MENTION]

I find that eating anything which lives makes me think about ethics, but it's something that I have to do. It some times concerns me that plants might feel pain which is why I don't really have house plants. I grow my plants outside and try to make them as happy as possible, even when I'm going to eat them.

I don't understand why people have to say that humans are conscious but animals are less conscious. Isn't that just arbitrary? At what level of consciousness does it become o.k. to eat a living thing? Do we actually know that plants don't feel pain anyway, or do we say that to make ourselves feel better?

I feel empathy for animals but I also feel for plants too. I don't like to hurt animals unnecessarily but I also don't like to hurt plants either. I don't like to see cut flowers that are just going to die anyway for someone's amusement.

Someone gave me a marigold in a small pot a while back, in a pot that was entirely too small for it. It was obviously meant to be a temporary novelty that wouldn't last, which bothered me because it's a living thing. I took it out of the pot and saw that the poor thing was already root bound and sick, and half the roots were rotted. I tried to save it but it had too much rot and eventually caught a plant disease and it died. That made me sad. Luckily I was able to harvest seeds from it before it got very sick and I was able to grow some of them to make up for it. I feel like I have to replace that plant.

sorry about the plant. i think that the distinction that is commonly made between plants on one hand, and human or nonhuman animals on the other hand, in terms of evidence we can obtain for consciousness and sensation, appears to be a reasonably meaningful distinction. but youre right, we really cant know for sure what kind of awareness exists inside a dandelion or potato, and its good that you are so thoughtful of plant life and the environment.

 

[sprinkles]

sorry about the plant. i think that the distinction that is commonly made between plants on one hand, and human or nonhuman animals on the other hand, in terms of evidence we can obtain for consciousness and sensation, appears to be a reasonably meaningful distinction. but youre right, we really cant know for sure what kind of awareness exists inside a dandelion or potato, and its good that you are so thoughtful of plant life and the environment.

Well even if a plant feels nothing, does that justify a total lack of respect? It's still alive. If a baby is born without a brain, as they are some times as a rare disorder, is it ok to treat it like a plant? Can't we eat it?

 

[Scientia]

If a baby is born without a brain, as they are some times as a rare disorder, is it ok to treat it like a plant? Can't we eat it?

You go first but tell us where you live so we can send some nice uniformed people over there to share dinner.

 

[invisible]

Well even if a plant feels nothing, does that justify a total lack of respect? It's still alive. If a baby is born without a brain, as they are some times as a rare disorder, is it ok to treat it like a plant? Can't we eat it?

i think its cool to treat a plant with respect. i think its important to treat plant life in general with respect. i dont like seeing plants treated with disrespect. im not really sure whether it is OK to treat a plant with disrespect. from a perspective examining the ethics of vegetarianism it doesnt seem to me to be as meaningful whether or not the life of a plant is treated with respect as it does that the life of an animal is treated with respect. im not really sure whether it is ok to eat a baby that is born without a brain, but that certainly does seem to be a special boundary case in the context.

 

[PintoBean]

... im not really sure whether it is ok to eat a baby that is born without a brain, but that certainly does seem to be a special boundary case in the context.

I would definitely lose my appetite anyway. A raw zucchini sounds more appealing really.

 

[invisible]

I would definitely lose my appetite anyway. A raw zucchini sounds more appealing really.

i also would prefer to eat the zucchini.

 

[sprinkles]

i think its cool to treat a plant with respect. i think its important to treat plant life in general with respect. i dont like seeing plants treated with disrespect. im not really sure whether it is OK to treat a plant with disrespect. from a perspective examining the ethics of vegetarianism it doesnt seem to me to be as meaningful whether or not the life of a plant is treated with respect as it does that the life of an animal is treated with respect. im not really sure whether it is ok to eat a baby that is born without a brain, but that certainly does seem to be a special boundary case in the context.

I'm pointing out a problem here though - if a meat eater said something like this in regards to animals vs humans, they'd often be accused of making excuses. Because meat eaters are obviously wrong and would murder small children if they were tasty.

It just bugs me that a lot of times only one side of the issue is allowed to feel justified in what they do, regardless of any logic or reason.

 

[invisible]

I'm pointing out a problem here though - if a meat eater said something like this in regards to animals vs humans, they'd often be accused of making excuses. Because meat eaters are obviously wrong and would murder small children if they were tasty.

It just bugs me that a lot of times only one side of the issue is allowed to feel justified in what they do, regardless of any logic or reason.

i definitely think that some vegetarians and vegans to tend to think that they are somehow morally more perfect people than other people who are not vegetarian. apart from that, i get it, i just dont think that polarised logical truths always realistically or meaningfully apply in the chaotic land of real world morality. i hope i am sort of making some sense. well anyway, i think its awesome that you limit your meat consumption to one portion a day. that is so sensible, i wish everyone could be more like that.

 

[sprinkles]

i definitely think that some vegetarians and vegans to tend to think that they are somehow morally more perfect people than other people who are not vegetarian. apart from that, i get it, i just dont think that polarised logical truths always realistically or meaningfully apply in the chaotic land of real world morality. i hope i am sort of making some sense. well anyway, i think its awesome that you limit your meat consumption to one portion a day. that is so sensible, i wish everyone could be more like that.

That's true of just about everything. Which is why I think it's important to not load everything up with emotive epithets that make things appear to be a double standard.

I just see a big cognitive dissonance in saying "You support the syndicated and organized abuse and torture of helpless animals which occurs on a nearly unspeakable level. But that's ok, let's be friends."

 

[invisible]

That's true of just about everything. Which is why I think it's important to not load everything up with emotive epithets that make things appear to be a double standard.

I just see a big cognitive dissonance in saying "You support the syndicated and organized abuse and torture of helpless animals which occurs on a nearly unspeakable level. But that's ok, let's be friends."

yeah, that is all OK by me.

i dont think that i see those words to be emotionally charged in a propaganda type sense. they appear to be somewhat neutral to me, in the way that the phrase "eating animal corpse parts" could be said to provide an accurate description of meat consumption. this is probably representative of some inner bias that i may not ever be able to liberate myself from.

i dont experience cognitive dissonance in that, because i dont expect people to be perfect. im not sure that i always necessarily judge people; i try not to, and in some cases i think i succeed. i do have boundaries about who i allow in my life, which may to some extent be arbitrary. but im fine with being arbitrary about certain things, because my emotions are not always rational.

 

[sprinkles]

yeah, that is all OK by me.

i dont think that i see those words to be emotionally charged in a propaganda type sense. they appear to be somewhat neutral to me, in the way that the phrase "eating animal corpse parts" could be said to provide an accurate description of meat consumption. this is probably representative of some inner bias that i may not ever be able to liberate myself from.

i dont experience cognitive dissonance in that, because i dont expect people to be perfect. im not sure that i always necessarily judge people; i try not to, and in some cases i think i succeed. i do have boundaries about who i allow in my life, which may to some extent be arbitrary. but im fine with being arbitrary about certain things, because my emotions are not always rational.

I don't expect people to be perfect either. But I would have a hard time just hanging out with people that I see as having a wanton disregard for life. If that happens then I'm not taking one of the two seriously. All things being equal it'd be like hanging out with the person who murdered your family and eats them in front of you. We make all kinds of thriller movies about going to great lengths to catch the psychotic mastermind cannibal killer. That's an infamous character, not somebody that we hang out with. So either people think it is to some degree more allowable to have this happen to animals on a massive industrial scale, or they're not taking themselves seriously.

 

[Uaeiaefhfe834nadi]

Meat's good and it's good for you. Just don't eat too much of it.

Also try not to kill more than you need and don't kill it in a cruel manner and it's all good. Things die, that's the way of life.

I've been a vegetarian my whole life (hippie parents..) and I agree. Most important: don't eat too much of it. In the U.S. and increasingly everywhere else as incomes rise, we eat wayyy more meat and dairy than we need to - thanks to advertising and the industries' power. With the right diet, we need very little to no animal protein to be healthy. I'm living proof! My main reasons for remaining vegetarian are environmental -- even if we raise animals humanely (which is almost never the case) our methods are still disastrous for the environment at this scale. We need to eat lower on the food chain.

 

[sprinkles]

I've been a vegetarian my whole life (hippie parents..) and I agree. Most important: don't eat too much of it. In the U.S. and increasingly everywhere else as incomes rise, we eat wayyy more meat and dairy than we need to - thanks to advertising and the industries' power. With the right diet, we need very little to no animal protein to be healthy. I'm living proof! My main reasons for remaining vegetarian are environmental -- even if we raise animals humanely (which is almost never the case) our methods are still disastrous for the environment at this scale. We need to eat lower on the food chain.

Also we really need to start growing our own vegetables. We really do. Industrialized farming is destroying land and the environment. The impact it has on soil health, ecological stability, and pollution from all the machines used in planting, harvesting, packing, shipping, and refrigerated storage before sale is not at all insignificant.

Not to mention it is more efficient because if you grow produce yourself you know what you're getting and you know that half of it hasn't been wasted because of minor aesthetic flaws. I have a couple hundred tomatoes that'll be ready soon and a lot of them have a deformity that growers call 'catfacing' which happens due to weather instabilities that cause the blossom to stick too long on the fruit and makes it grow irregularly and look mutated. If I were a commercial grower, half of my tomatoes would be thrown away even though they are perfectly edible, they just look weird.

 

[invisible]

I don't expect people to be perfect either. But I would have a hard time just hanging out with people that I see as having a wanton disregard for life. If that happens then I'm not taking one of the two seriously. All things being equal it'd be like hanging out with the person who murdered your family and eats them in front of you. We make all kinds of thriller movies about going to great lengths to catch the psychotic mastermind cannibal killer. That's an infamous character, not somebody that we hang out with. So either people think it is to some degree more allowable to have this happen to animals on a massive industrial scale, or they're not taking themselves seriously.

yes, it sure is a bit like hanging out with psycho serial killers for me at times. and i admit that over certain issues in life, i think to myself, what makes me any different to a psycho serial killer? but i try to remind myself that i think and believe that good and evil are not inherent to the world but are rather human created frameworks for understanding. i do not think that meat consumption is a puzzle that can be resolved, either through a yes or no equation, or any other means, unless by directing meat proteins to form in a vat. it is just an ethically very fraught issue.

i think that it is impossible to exist as a good person in this world, whether because of eating habits, clothing habits, waste creation habits, or some other reason; we are a flawed creature. and i think it is impossible for any person to understand and track all of the possibilities for ramifications of these life aspects within themselves. so i just try to believe that it is meaningful to reflect honestly and responsibly on actions done in the world, and to attempt to minimise harm done.

hope this explains myself.

 

[sprinkles]

yes, it sure is a bit like hanging out with psycho serial killers for me at times. and i admit that over certain issues in life, i think to myself, what makes me any different to a psycho serial killer? but i try to remind myself that i think and believe that good and evil are not inherent to the world but are rather human created frameworks for understanding. i do not think that meat consumption is a puzzle that can be resolved, either through a yes or no equation, or any other means, unless by directing meat proteins to form in a vat. it is just an ethically very fraught issue.

i think that it is impossible to exist as a good person in this world, whether because of eating habits, clothing habits, waste creation habits, or some other reason; we are a flawed creature. and i think it is impossible for any person to understand and track all of the possibilities for ramifications of these life aspects within themselves. so i just try to believe that it is meaningful to reflect honestly and responsibly on actions done in the world, and to attempt to minimise harm done.

hope this explains myself.

I agree. That's all I really needed to hear.

 

[AJ_]

DNA damage from eating red meat linked to cancer
Link to article

- Harmful compounds raise risk of bowel disease
- Volunteers fed diet heavy in beef and pork

Eating large quantities of red meat can increase your risk of bowel cancer by producing substances in the gut that damage DNA, a study reveals today.
A comparison of cells from the lining of the colon shows that people who eat a diet high in high red meat have a "significant" increase in levels of DNA damage compared with vegetarians. This damage can increase the risk of developing cancer, say researchers at the Medical Research Council's (MRC) Dunn human nutrition unit in Cambridge.

The finding follows a major European study last year which indicated that people who eat two portions of red or processed meat a day increase their risk of bowel cancer by 35% compared with those who eat one portion weekly. The research, part funded by the MRC, monitored the diets of nearly half a million men and women in 10 countries over five years.

The new study, led by Sheila Bingham and published today in the journal Cancer Research, looked for physiological changes that could explain this result. "The question was: what was the reason for this association?" she said. "With this research, we have established a direct link."

The scientists monitored 21 volunteers, who each undertook three 15-day diets. The first, high-meat, diet featured roast beef sandwiches, minced beef pie, sweet and sour pork and cottage pie; the second, vegetarian, cheese or egg sandwiches, vegetarian and pasta bake, egg and chips, and lentil bake; and the third, meat dishes but higher levels of fibre. Cells from every stool sample were then analysed to check for the presence of any alteration in DNA.

The researchers found that when the red meat diet was compared with the vegetarian diet, there was a "consistent and significant" increase in DNA damage, while damage was intermediate with the red meat/high fibre diet.

The damage was specific to substances called N-nitrosocompounds (NOC) found in increased levels in the large bowel of red meat eaters. Some of these compounds are thought to combine with DNA and destabilise it, making it more likely to undergo harmful changes that increase the risk of cancer. Fibre may reduce the risk because it gets rid of damaged cells.

Scientists welcomed the findings as 80% of bowel cancer is thought to be related to diet and therefore largely preventable. Each year 35,000 people in Britain are diagnosed with bowel cancer, and 16,000 of them die.

David Shuker, of the Open University, who had previously established a link between NOC derivatives in meat and DNA changes, said: "These combined discoveries have allowed us to link red meat consumption to an increased risk of bowel cancer and may give us some clues about developing a screening test for very early changes related to the disease."

Colin Blakemore, the MRC's chief executive, said: "Large bowel cancer is the second most common cancer in western countries and nearly 1m cases occur each year worldwide. This latest study, together with the compelling epidemiological evidence published last year, is an important step towards understanding and potentially preventing this common disease."

Ed Yong, of Cancer Research UK, said the study emphasised the need for a healthy, balanced diet with plenty of fibre, fruit and vegetables and reduced levels of red and processed meat.
But the Meat and Livestock Commission pointed out that the research assessed people eating 420g (15oz) of red meat a day - over five times more than the average man's quota of 80g (3oz), and over eight times the average woman's intake of 50g. An average fillet steak weighs 140g and an average burger about 100g.

"The danger is that people will take the message from this that red meat is unsafe," said the commission's spokesman, Guy Attenborough. "But they're talking about giving people the equivalent of two 8oz steaks a day, seven days a week. Anyone whose diet is that unbalanced is going to have problems."

I listened to an interview with Jaggi Vasudev, an author, philanthropist and teacher of Hindu philosophy, in which he talked about a family cow that shed tears when one of the owners died in a separate room — the cow just had an awareness and connection with the owner. I wondered more about cows actually crying and found the following video. (Yes the music in the background is a little cheesey but the video itself is pretty eye-opening).

[video=youtube;wV92bw6Np24]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV92bw6Np24[/video]

The interview about why most people in India don't eat cows:
[video=youtube;yneyNx-SRzg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yneyNx-SRzg[/video]

 

[flower]

[video=youtube;wV92bw6Np24]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV92bw6Np24[/video]

Aww, such a heartwarming video! <3 Cows have feelings too and aren't stupid. Of course she was sad if her baby wasn't there... Happy reconciling.

 

[RainbowGirlAli]

I've been a vegetarian since November 2012. It's only hard because I don't live in an area with proper resources for organic and such. Not a lot of choices in grocery stores. I kind of live on MorningStar, pasta and rice. I eat way too much pasta, bread and processed foods to keep me full. Therefore I have actually gained weight.

I myself grew up eating a lot of meat. But I'd always loved animals. It's easy for us to ignore what's happening to them when we don't have to watch. We just pick it up already slaughtered, cut up and packaged in the store. But I did watch some videos eventually. I kind of envied those I'd met who didn't eat meat, and always wanted to do it. Wasn't sure I'd be able to give it up. The first time I tried, I was in an educational program, we lived on center and ate whatever they made. The food was already horrible and I eventually had to convert back to eating meat because there wasn't a good selection of choices of anything else to eat. They did make a vegetarian plate, but they refused to give it to me because I'd eaten meat before and they wanted "documentation from a doctor to prove I was a vegetarian." Seriously. Vegetarianism is not something you can diagnose and I don't need someone with years of education and a medical license to tell me I've made a choice.

Anyway, when I finally made the choice and quit cold turkey, I was working as a cashier at McDonald's (smelling it and cleaning it up everyday). But I told myself that either I was going to stop being a hypocrite and not take part in something I hate, or shut up and deal with it. So I did it. I ended up working at that McDonald's for two more years, and never ate any meat. My diet is not great nutrition wise, but I'm still learning.

 

[Artisan]

I apologize for leaving my post incomplete. Whether you are INFJ or not, what are your thoughts about being/becoming a vegetarian? Saying it doesn’t matter is still a valid response

I am all for a good treatment of animals, but I would not become a vegetarian myself.
I can live with a vegetarian and eat vegetarian all day everyday, but if I want to eat a hotdog, burger or whatever, then I am going to.

That said I tend not to buy pigs meat because it's just too fatty and oily for my liking.
Beef, Lamb, Deer, Chicken, all works for me. But I do hope that they've been treated well and did not experience pain or fear during their passing.
I know that this is wishful hoping. But at the same time, it's not like me stopping to eat meat will discontinue the practice.
Your dogs and cats eat meat all the same, animals die everywhere all the same, it is part of nature.
And as long as we keep animals in any way shape or form, this industry will also exist.

If it was an option, I'd prefer to buy fresh meat from a local that I know treated the animal well, did not jack it up with antibiotics and hormones and made sure that it went quickly, painlessly and without fear.
But there is not much of a market left of that these days in this world. Mega-Corporations rule the food industry.


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But what if all human beings became vegetarians?
What would happen?

Have you ever wondered why not all living creatures are vegetarians?
What it would mean if they all competed for the exact same food source?
It would mean they would starve to death.

Lets imagine there is a pair of rabbits on a small island with only grass on it.
More and more rabbits come as the two rabbits procreate.
They all need to eat, eventually there is no more grass left and they all die.

now lets look at humans, what would it mean if we all became vegetarians?
We'd need more land to farm, so we'd be reclaiming more land from nature.
With this increase of demand for farmland comes the extinction of native creatures and plant species.

Ok but what if we then terraform mars and make that our farming planet?
Solarflare happens, the transportation is unable to continue duo say a pandemic, all people on earth die of starvation because of a consumption rate that means all stores are out of products within 3 days.


The only way to thus meet food demands would be if we could live off photosynthesis. Meaning we would feed of the energy we gather from the sun like plants do.
That would mean genetically modifying the human race to absorb energy as they sunbathe around naked outside during daylight. but if that was our only source, then would we not starve if we had a cloudy day ;p ?
Plants gain nutrients from the soil, from feces and dead plants and creatures.

The only thing we can really do is try to be as diverse as possible in our eating habit as we seek for a new way that has less impact on the environment.....


Trippy ain't it? when you stop focusing on a details and look at the big picture o.o but well, that's how I think about it.