Is psychology science?

[muir]

Complicated Grief Disorder (CGD)

When I read this, my first impression was "Oh, what a funny disorder. It must be psycho-comedy." Then I realise is something serious, and I go "Oh my/...."

[video=youtube;JI8AMRbqY6w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI8AMRbqY6w[/video]

 

[muir]

There's more than just black and white.

Disclaimer: i reserve the right to post weird shit on the internet without being called crazy







What is Advaita or Nonduality?

- by Dennis Waite
"So, Swami-ji, what would you say that Advaita is?" The eager young woman crossed her legs and sat expectantly, pencil poised above a pristine pad of paper.
"It simply means ‘not two' - the ultimate truth is nondual," replied the Sage, reclining in a large and comfortable-looking armchair and not sitting in an upright lotus position, as he ought to have been, for the sake of the photograph that she had just taken, if nothing else.
She continued to wait for further elucidation before beginning to write but it soon became apparent that the answer had been given. "But is it a religion? Do you believe in God, for example?"
"Ah, well, that would depend upon what you mean by those words, wouldn't it?" he responded, irritatingly. "If, by ‘religion', you mean does it have priests and churches and a band of followers who are prepared to kill non-believers, then the answer is no. If, on the other hand, you refer to the original, literal meaning of the word, namely to ‘bind again', to reunite the mistaken person that we think we are with the Self that we truly are, then yes, it is a religion. Similarly, if by ‘God' you mean a separate, supernatural being who created the universe and will reward us by sending us to heaven if we do what He wants, then the answer is no. If you use the term in the sense of the unmanifest, non-dual reality, then yes, I most certainly do believe in God."
The pencil raced across the paper, recording the answer for the benefit of the magazine's readers but, as the words clashed with previous ideas in her memory, the lack of a clear resolution of her questions was reflected by an increasing puzzlement in her expression.
He registered this with compassion and held out his hand towards her. "Give me a piece of paper from your pad." She looked up, mouth slightly open as she wondered why he could possibly want that. But she turned the pad over, carefully tore off the bottom sheet and placed it in his outstretched hand. He turned to the table at his right and deftly began to fold and refold the paper. After a few moments, he turned back and, before she had had time to see what he had done, he held the paper aloft and launched it into the air. It rose quickly and circled gracefully around the room before losing momentum and diving to meet a sudden end when its pointed nose hit a sauce bottle on the dining table. "Could you bring it back over here do you think?" he asked.
"So, what would you say that we have here?" he asked, as she handed it back to him.
"It's a paper aeroplane," she replied, with just a hint of questioning in her voice, since the answer was so obvious that she felt he must have some other purpose in mind.
"Really?" he responded and, in an instant, he screwed up the object and, with a practised, over-arm movement, threw it effortlessly in a wide arc, from which it landed just short of the waste paper basket in the corner of the room. "And now?" he asked.
"It's a screwed-up ball of paper", she said, without any doubt in her voice this time.
"Could you bring it back again, please", he continued. She did so, wondering if this was typical of such an interview, spending the session chasing about after bits of paper like a dog running after a stick. He took the ball and carefully unfolded it, spread it out on the table and smoothed his hand over it a few times before handing it back to her. "And now it is just a sheet of paper again," he said, "although I'm afraid it's a bit crumpled now!"
He looked at her, apparently anticipating some sign of understanding if not actual revelation but none was forthcoming. He looked around the room and, after a moment, he stood up, walked over to the window and removed a rose from a vase standing in the alcove. Returning to his seat, he held the rose out to her and asked, "What is this?"
She was feeling increasingly embarrassed as it was clear he was trying to explain something fundamental, which she was not understanding. Either that or he was mad or deliberately provoking her, neither of which seemed likely, since he remained calm and open and somehow intensely present. "It's a flower," she replied eventually.
He then deliberately took one of the petals between his right-hand thumb and fore-finger and plucked it. He looked at her and said, "And now?" She didn't reply, though it seemed that this time he didn't really expect an answer. He continued to remove the petals one by one until none remained, looking up at her after each action. Finally, he pulled the remaining parts of the flower head off the stem and dropped them onto the floor, leaving the bare stalk, which he held out to her. "Where is the flower now?" he asked. Receiving no reply, he bent down and picked up all of the petals, eventually displaying them in his open hand. "Is this a flower?" he asked.
She shook her head slowly. "It was a flower only when all of the petals and the other bits were all attached to the stem."
"Good!" he said, appreciatively. "Flower is the name that we give to that particular arrangement of all of the parts. Once we have separated it into its component parts, the flower ceases to exist. But was there ever an actual, separate thing called ‘flower'? All of the material that constituted the original form is still here in these parts in my hand.
"The paper aeroplane is an even simpler example. There never was an aeroplane was there? And I don't just mean that it was only a toy. There was only ever paper. To begin with, the paper was in the form of a flat sheet for writing on. Then, I folded it in various ways so that it took on an aerodynamic shape which could fly through the air slowly. The name that we give to that form is ‘aeroplane'. When I screwed it up, the ball-shape could be thrown more accurately. ‘Aeroplane' and ‘ball' were names relating to particular forms of the paper but at all times, all that ever actually existed was paper.
"Now, this sort of analysis applies to every ‘thing' that you care to think of. Look at that table over there and this chair on which you are sitting. What are they made of? You will probably say that they are wooden chairs?"
He looked at her questioningly and she nodded, knowing at the same time that he was going to contradict her. "Well, they are made of wood certainly, but that does not mean that they are wooden chairs! On the contrary, I would say that this, that you are sitting on, is actually chairy wood, and that object over there is tably wood. What do you say to that?"
"You mean that the thing that we call ‘chair' is just a name that we give to the wood when it is that particular shape and being used for that particular function?" she asked, with understanding beginning to dawn.
"Exactly! I couldn't have put it better myself. It is quite possible that I could have a bag full of pieces of wood that can be slotted together in different ways so that at one time I might assemble them into something to sit upon, another time into something to put food upon and so on. We give the various forms distinct names and we forget that they are ONLY names and forms and not distinct and separate things.
"Look - here's an apple," he said, picking one out of the bowl on the table and casually tossing it from one hand to the other before holding it up for her to examine. "It's round or to be more accurate, spherical; its reddish in colour and it has", he sniffed it, "a fruity smell. No doubt if I were to bite into it, I would find it juicy and sweet.
"Now all of these - round, red, fruity, juicy, sweet - are adjectives describing the noun ‘apple.' Or, to use more Advaitic terms, let me say that the ‘apple' is the ‘substantive' - the apparently real, separately existing thing - and all of the other words are ‘attributes' of the apple - merely incidental qualities of the thing itself. Are you with me so far?"
She nodded hesitantly but, after a little reflection, more positively.
"But suppose I had carried out this analysis with the rose that we looked at a moment ago. I could have said that it was red, delicate, fragrant, thorny and so on. And we would have noted that all of those were simply attributes and that the actual existent thing, the substantive, was the rose. But then we went on to see that the rose wasn't real at all. It was just an assemblage of petals and sepals and so on - I'm afraid I am not a botanist! In the same way, we could say that the apple consists of seeds and flesh and skin. We may not be able to put these things together into any form different from an apple but Nature can.
"If you ask a scientist what makes an apple an apple, he will probably tell you that is the particular configuration of nucleotides in the DNA or RNA of the cells. There are many different species of apple and each one will have a slight variation in the chromosomes and it is that which differentiates the species. If you want to explain to someone what the difference is between a Bramley and a Granny Smith, you will probably say something like ‘the Bramley is large and green, used mainly for cooking and is quite sharp tasting, while the Granny Smith is still green but normally much smaller and sweeter'. But these are all adjectives or attributes. What is actually different is the physical makeup of the cell nuclei.
"But, if we look at a chromosome or a strand of DNA, are we actually looking at a self-existent, separate thing? If you look very closely through an electron microscope, you find that DNA is made up of four basic units arranged in pairs in a long, spiral chain. And any one of these units is itself made up of atoms of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen, again arranged in a very specific way. So even those are not separate ‘things-in-themselves'; they are names given to particular forms of other, more fundamental things.
"And so we arrive at atoms - even the ancient Greeks used to think that everything was made up of atoms. Are these the final ‘substantives' with all of the apparent things in the world being merely attributes? Well, unfortunately not. Science has known for a long time that atoms mainly consist of empty space with electrons spinning around a central nucleus of protons and neutrons. And science has known for somewhat less time that these particles, which were once thought to be fundamental, are themselves not solid, self-existent things but are either made up of still smaller particles or are in the form of waves, merely having probabilities of existence at many different points in space.
"Still more recently, science claimed that all of the different particles are themselves made out of different combinations of just a few particles called quarks and that those are the ultimately existing things. But they have not yet progressed far enough. The simple fact of the matter is that every ‘thing' is ultimately only an attribute, a name and form superimposed upon a more fundamental substantive. We make the mistake of thinking that there really is a table, when actually there is only wood. We make the mistake of thinking that there is really wood, when actually there is only cellulose and sugars and proteins. We make the mistake of thinking there is protein when this is only a particular combination of atoms. "Ultimately, everything in the universe is seen to be only name and form of a single substantive.
The journalist was transfixed; not exactly open-mouthed but her pencil had not moved for some time. Eventually, she asked in a small voice: "But then where do I fit into all of this?"
"Ah", he replied. "That again depends upon what you mean by the word ‘I'. Who you think you are - ‘Sarah' - is essentially no different from the table and chair. You are simply name and form, imposed upon the non-dual reality. Who you really are, however... well, that is quite different - you are that nondual reality. You see, in the final analysis, there are not two things; there is only nonduality. That is the truth; that is Advaita." (by Dennis Waite)

www.advaita.org.uk.

 

[say what]

I already said it. You people have a crazy way of drifting to sides.
There is nothing scientific in psychology today, and actualy it never was. I linked here some videos and a article. If you are interested, watch the videos and read the article.

Then how do you define "scientific"?

 

[say what]

Woman A: “You’ll feel better if you get your
anger out.”
Woman B: “Anger? Why am I angry?”
Woman A: “Because he left you, that’s why.”
Woman B: “Left me? What are you talking
about? He died. He was an old man.”
Woman A: “Yes, but to your unconscious it’s no
different from abandonment. Underneath, you are
blaming him for not keeping his obligation to you
to protect you forever.”
Woman B: “That might have been true if I were
ten years old, Margaret, but I’m forty-two, we both
knew he was dying, and we had time to make our
peace. I don’t feel angry, I feel sad. I miss him. He
was a darling father to me.”
Woman A: “Why are you so defensive? Why are
you denying your true feelings? Why are you afraid
of therapy?”
Woman B: “Margaret, you are driving me crazy.
I don’t feel angry, dammit!”
Woman A (smiling): “So why are you shouting?”

It is not entirely easy to argue with a Freudian
devotee, because disagreement is usually taken as
denial or “blocking.
Imagine what psyhiatry can do with this approach. they can literarely accuse you of anything...

You need to broaden your scope of psychology- it's not all about leather couches and a person with a clip board asking you about your mommy issues

 

[say what]

Are you sure that she doesn't have Complicated Grief Disorder (CGD)?

Because according to the people behind the DSM if you feel sad at the loss of a loved one then you have a disease.....please keep your distance in case it is contagious

In psychiatry, complicated grief disorder (CGD) is a proposed disorder for those who are significantly and functionally impaired by prolonged grief symptoms for at least one month after six months of bereavement.[SUP][1][/SUP] It is distinguished from non-impairing grief[SUP][2][/SUP] and other disorders (such as major depressive disorder[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8][/SUP] and posttraumatic stress disorder).[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP][SUP][9][/SUP][SUP][10][/SUP] This disorder is currently “under review” by the DSM-5 work groups, who are considering whether there is enough evidence for it to be included in the new DSM.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complicated_grief_disorder


You know what she needs? drugs from our good friends in big pharma....drug the freak...shut her up...emotion is not allowed!

And remember: IGNORANCE is STRENGTH

The prescription of drugs in psychology certainly grew out of the industrial revolution, where people wanted quick fixes and pharmaceutical industries wanted money. However, malaise and hysteria (forms of depression and anxiety) were around before that. They use to prescribe retreats to nature to help remedy these illnesses, and understood them to be, partially, the cause of our environment.

While I don't disagree that there are diseases and illnesses out there solely for the purpose to prescribe medication, there are legit mental health issues within the DSM. Additionally, psychologist (who are not often able to prescribe medication, this is for psychiatrists), are now moving to more holistic and non-prescription based approaches. Mindfulness, meditation, retreats into nature, and other forms of prescription are being used to help mitigate symptoms of a variety of mental disorders.

I think with a lot of it, it's not as simple as you have x because of y, so you need to do z. Taking a broad holistic understanding of health and mental health will ultimately provide the best understanding of what an individual is going through, and how to help them through that period. Regardless of if it's the cause of external forces, there is a need to treat and help a lot of people who suffer from debilitating and awful mental illnesses

 

[say what]

Noy jsu drugs, but also some electro-shocks. I don't see the reasonong behind that but.... Maaaaaaaaaaaaadddddddddddddddddd doctors...

Do you still believe medicine looks like this:

If not, then why have you not updated your understanding of psychology?

There was an archaic point in the history of all disciplines...

 

[muir]

The prescription of drugs in psychology certainly grew out of the industrial revolution, where people wanted quick fixes and pharmaceutical industries wanted money. However, malaise and hysteria (forms of depression and anxiety) were around before that. They use to prescribe retreats to nature to help remedy these illnesses, and understood them to be, partially, the cause of our environment.

While I don't disagree that there are diseases and illnesses out there solely for the purpose to prescribe medication, there are legit mental health issues within the DSM. Additionally, psychologies (who are not often able to prescribe medication, this is for psychiatrists), are not moving to more holistic and non-prescription based approaches. Mindfulness, meditation, retreats into nature, and other forms of prescription are being used to help mitigate symptoms of a variety of mental disorders.

I think with a lot of it, it's not as simple as you have x because of y, so you need to do z. Taking a broad holistic understanding of health and mental health will ultimately provide the best understanding of what an individual is going through, and how to help them through that period. Regardless of if it's the cause of external forces, there is a need to treat and help a lot of people who suffer from debilitating and awful mental illnesses

Evereyone is crazy in some way or other but we are assessed on how well we adapt to the current system

“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society” Krishnamurti

Chemically coshing people is only treating the symptoms...it is not 'curing' people

To cure society we must change the environment

 

[say what]

Evereyone is crazy in some way or other but we are assessed on how well we adapt to the current system

“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society” Krishnamurti

I agree. But should we not try and help the people who are not resilient enough to bounce back or adapt enough to be able to live a life that they can enjoy?

 

[j654dgj7]

It's interesting how countries that have access to medicine and treatment of bipolar patients show lower death rates and higher life expectancies than those countries that do not:



Source

Edit: Bipolar patients also being of significance because the patients with the most extreme symptoms receive electroconvulsive therapy.

 

[say what]

It's interesting how countries that have access to medicine and treatment of bipolar patients show lower death rates and higher life expectancies than those countries that do not:

View attachment 20566

Source

Edit: Bipolar patients also being of significance because the patients with the most extreme symptoms receive electroconvulsive therapy.

Ooo! Great post!

I also wanted to mention too, that some people believe the drastic increase in mental health in the last century is due to the pharmaceutical industry. While I do agree that many cases of depression, anxiety, and ADHD can, and should, be treated without medication...there are other reasons for this increase.

One issue is that a lot of times the presence of such diseases doesn't manifest until late adolescence or early adulthood. Given the harsh environments and the rates of disease, it's quite possible that people who had disorders such as bipolar or schizophrenia may not have lived long enough for it to become fully developed. Additionally, many people went undiagnosed. Just because cancer is a relatively new phenomenon, doesn't mean it didn't exists for many centuries - our diagnostic tools have improved (I'm also talking about psychological diagnostic tools), so that we can often recognize symptoms before the illness/disorder/disease is in it's full or late stage. Even people who were deemed 'sick' were also misdiagnosed and mistreated, and we can't know for sure if that mistreated lead to a more complicated case/illness.

 

[Radiantshadow]

Ooo! Great post!

I also wanted to mention too, that some people believe the drastic increase in mental health in the last century is due to the pharmaceutical industry. While I do agree that many cases of depression, anxiety, and ADHD can, and should, be treated without medication...there are other reasons for this increase.

One issue is that a lot of times the presence of such diseases doesn't manifest until late adolescence or early adulthood. Given the harsh environments and the rates of disease, it's quite possible that people who had disorders such as bipolar or schizophrenia may not have lived long enough for it to become fully developed. Additionally, many people went undiagnosed. Just because cancer is a relatively new phenomenon, doesn't mean it didn't exists for many centuries - our diagnostic tools have improved (I'm also talking about psychological diagnostic tools), so that we can often recognize symptoms before the illness/disorder/disease is in it's full or late stage. Even people who were deemed 'sick' were also misdiagnosed and mistreated, and we can't know for sure if that mistreated lead to a more complicated case/illness.

I can relate to this pretty well. I work with autistic children and I've encountered some parents who think the autistic spectrum is just a device used to categorize deviant, but asymptomatic, behavior. They rightfully claim that the diagnostic rate for autism has increased to five times its rate a few decades ago, but then they go and use that as "proof" that the spectrum is a massive lie sold by psychologists and psychiatrists to get business. Though some of the diagnostic criteria can overlap with personality traits and high intelligence, resulting in a misdiagnosis, it's frustrating to see childrens' individual needs go unmet.

 

[muir]

I agree. But should we not try and help the people who are not resilient enough to bounce back or adapt enough to be able to live a life that they can enjoy?

Do you know what they do to 'help' people? They cart them off to a hosptial ward where they restrain them and give them a shot of '5 and 2' in the ass

Then they experiment with various cocktails of drugs until they pacify the person

I think the key as you say is to take a whole-istic approach to people. Look at them not as a biological robot but as a person with emotions who is reacting to their environment...a sick environment

But that would mean takign a critical look at our environment and the powers that be do not want to do that

 

[muir]

It's interesting how countries that have access to medicine and treatment of bipolar patients show lower death rates and higher life expectancies than those countries that do not:

View attachment 20566

Source

Edit: Bipolar patients also being of significance because the patients with the most extreme symptoms receive electroconvulsive therapy.

I posted evidence in the vaccines thread that showed the things that have had the most impact on public health are actually things like clean water, food and improved housing conditions and so on

Medicine does some good things but it has its flaws as well

 

[muir]

Ooo! Great post!

I also wanted to mention too, that some people believe the drastic increase in mental health in the last century is due to the pharmaceutical industry. While I do agree that many cases of depression, anxiety, and ADHD can, and should, be treated without medication...there are other reasons for this increase.

One issue is that a lot of times the presence of such diseases doesn't manifest until late adolescence or early adulthood. Given the harsh environments and the rates of disease, it's quite possible that people who had disorders such as bipolar or schizophrenia may not have lived long enough for it to become fully developed. Additionally, many people went undiagnosed. Just because cancer is a relatively new phenomenon, doesn't mean it didn't exists for many centuries - our diagnostic tools have improved (I'm also talking about psychological diagnostic tools), so that we can often recognize symptoms before the illness/disorder/disease is in it's full or late stage. Even people who were deemed 'sick' were also misdiagnosed and mistreated, and we can't know for sure if that mistreated lead to a more complicated case/illness.

What 'drastic increase in mental health'?

Since they started categorising disorders there has been an uptick in mental health problems

You say cancer is a new phenomenon but that's because we weren't using all the carcinogenic chemicals before world war 2

[video=youtube;_HyqK-EqOTQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HyqK-EqOTQ[/video]

 

[j654dgj7]

I posted evidence in the vaccines thread that showed the things that have had the most impact on public health are actually things like clean water, food and improved housing conditions and so on

Medicine does some good things but it has its flaws as well

You're right, except this isn't about public health but about an insular group of people that suffer from the same mental illness.

Which flaws are you referring to? How is it flawed in connection to treatment of people suffering from bipolar disorder?

 

[j654dgj7]

Sorry what 'drastic increase in mental health'?

Since they started categorising disorders there has been an uptick in mental health problems

You say cancer is a new phenomenon...well yes we weren't using all the carcinogenic chemicals before world war 2

You raise a valid point - why are there more people being treated for mental illness than ever before?

My grandmother died at a hospital when she was 37 years old. Through her life she had "episodes" where she would lock herself away from the world. Hospitals stuck a term on her that they would use for most mentally ill people - she was "hysterical". There was no treatment, no diagnosis, just agony for my grandmother. She tried to commit suicide multiple times, she would have crazy manic episodes and she would hate herself and my mother more than anything in the world. Periodically. Other times she would be normal, happy and like any other mother.

Because of medical science there are now diagnosis (i.e.: ways to get help) available to women like her. She could have gone to a psychiatrist, taken a few tests and gotten a diagnosis. She could have had a life. She could have been around for my mother. There is no reason for people to suffer in the dark. Medical science brings people peace of mind. Because that's the most important part of treatment, knowing that others have the same problems that you have and the same brain wirings as you.

So why are there more people being treated and diagnosed? Because we know more know. Why are there more people on antidepressants? Because people know that they can get help when they need it.

Regarding cancer. Cancer has been around since humans have been around. Check out this cool Wikipedia article on the Edwin Smith Papyrus - the first medical document in known existence that mentions cancer. Egypt, 1500 BCE.

 

[LucyJr]

Do you still believe medicine looks like this:

If not, then why have you not updated your understanding of psychology?

There was an archaic point in the history of all disciplines...

Actualy, I think is much more worse.

 

[LucyJr]

Then how do you define "scientific"?

How it is defined.

 

[muir]

You're right, except this isn't about public health but about an insular group of people that suffer from the same mental illness.

Which flaws are you referring to? How is it flawed in connection to treatment of people suffering from bipolar disorder?

I mentioned before about cognitive dissonance being a tension between how we are told things are and how we feel inside things are

Ou reality is a manufactured lie so of course there is going to be cognitive dissonance

The greater the polarity, the greater the tension, the greater the pendulum

 

[LucyJr]

You need to broaden your scope of psychology- it's not all about leather couches and a person with a clip board asking you about your mommy issues

You need to understand the point I was making. The story just ilustrates the point, is a image. The story by itself is nothing.