Is this a safe space for intelligent conversation?

bickelz said:
@zak Are you talking about this particular sub forum in particular or the whole forum in general?
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Re: "I'm hesitant to post anything personal in this subforum (or any other, to be honest)"

So, in answer to your question, it is (indirectly) about the entire forum.
 
zak said:
Easy for an ENTP to say. ;) No, I understand what you're saying. Good point. I think this may be tougher for some of us than others, though.
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I know this may be easier for me than for many other people, yet censoring yourself like that is a problem and it's a lot better to overcome it than to keep dwelling about it
 
zak said:
Re: "I'm hesitant to post anything personal in this subforum (or any other, to be honest)"

So, in answer to your question, it is (indirectly) about the entire forum.
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There's nothing but drama on the serious threads. I'm actually surprised how much not serious threads there are. When I joined, I though this place was inherently serious but I was kinda wrong. This is actually the only place where I'm not usually serious.

Sometimes it can be hard to shift gears between troll and serious when going between a troll and serious thread in one post.

If you take things with a grain of salt and call people out when they're being dicks, things might become more enjoyable.
 
You know these sort of discussions are making me very uncomfortable because in the back of my mind, I wonder if I am one of those causing offence. I don't think I am but who knows? I am not infj so I am well aware that I am not the primary target of this forum. If I feel this way, I suspect others do too.

I understand the need for serious discussion but I also appreciate the humour. If there is a problem with a member bring it up with them. If the problem is so severe that it could be considered trolling then bring it up with the staff. This sort of vague talking around the issue is very annoying because it achieves nothing and further increases the discontent.

Now to the solutions. As a threadstarter, meaning threadstarters in general, let your voice be heard if the thread is veering dangerously off-topic. It is very easy to misinterpret the intentions of threadstarters and responders. I for one don't believe I have commented in the mysticism forum because I don't believe in mysticism and I don't think that is a welcome opinion based on the responses some members have received. Fine, I don't think those people are bothered by it. However, I wonder if those opinions are also considered forum pollution.

As to the joking, I've participated in some of it and I hope it hasn't been offensive. However, what may seem like hostility in the open may actually be something else. There is a whole different world in the PMs and if you are not in the loop, not that I am, the public shenanigans can be misleading. I personally think that some of the carousing was excessive but I guess my attitude is that nothing stays the same forever. Every forum has its cycles.

I would say to members if people start to complain then consider toning it down a little bit. I've had a few problems with members here but all the issues have been happily resolved. To this point, I have found no one who is unreasonable or stubborn.
 
kiu said:
You know these sort of discussions are making me very uncomfortable because in the back of my mind, I wonder if I am one of those causing offence. I don't think I am but who knows? I am not infj so I am well aware that I am not the primary target of this forum. If I feel this way, I suspect others do too.
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Hi, kiu. I don't know you well enough to agree or disagree with your assumption that you've caused issues (I haven't had any problems with your posts myself), but I think there might be a misunderstanding. I wasn't calling anyone out in particular. There are a lot of people I really like on the forums who do this sort of thing regularly and probably don't even realize it. Really, please don't take it personally. I was simply trying to encourage dialogue about the problem.

kiu said:
I understand the need for serious discussion but I also appreciate the humour. If there is a problem with a member bring it up with them. If the problem is so severe that it could be considered trolling then bring it up with the staff. This sort of vague talking around the issue is very annoying because it achieves nothing and further increases the discontent.
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One of the issues seems to be that people are uncomfortable talking about the problem. I believe this is due to the fact that they feel they will become a bigger target for negativity if they speak up (and, in fairness, they might). One of the reasons I finally broke down and shared my feelings on this was due to an overwhelming sense of hurt and disconnection on the forums at the moment.

I didn't think I was vague or that I talked around the issue. Please re-read my original post. I was as clear and concise as I was capable of being.

kiu said:
Now to the solutions. As a threadstarter, meaning threadstarters in general, let your voice be heard if the thread is veering dangerously off-topic. It is very easy to misinterpret the intentions of threadstarters and responders. I for one don't believe I have commented in the mysticism forum because I don't believe in mysticism and I don't think that is a welcome opinion based on the responses some members have received. Fine, I don't think those people are bothered by it. However, I wonder if those opinions are also considered forum pollution.
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Thank you. These are great suggestions, and some people may not have considered them. And, yes, one of the biggest problems (I believe) is miscommunication. It's tough to pick up on the tone of someone's words when they're printed on a computer screen, especially if you don't know the person very well.

Personally, I'm accepting of all points of view (as I've been on both sides of the "Magic and Mysticism" debate), and don't have a problem with intelligent discussion from anyone who wants to join in. However, my concern was specifically about people coming in and making fun of others for those beliefs, even (maybe particularly) if they do so by subtly implying their distaste for the subject matter in a mocking tone.

kiu said:
As to the joking, I've participated in some of it and I hope it hasn't been offensive. However, what may seem like hostility in the open may actually be something else. There is a whole different world in the PMs and if you are not in the loop, not that I am, the public shenanigans can be misleading. I personally think that some of the carousing was excessive but I guess my attitude is that nothing stays the same forever. Every forum has its cycles.
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In terms of the joking, there is a distinct difference between INTJs and INFJs that I deal with on a daily basis (one of my closest friends is INTJ). INFJs, we have no sense of humor online. ;) This is a generalization, of course, but I've also found that INFJs don't appreciate debate as much as INTJs (I know I don't). My INTJ friend doesn't understand how we come to understand something if we don't debate it, and often finds it irritating when I tell him that he's hurt my feelings in some way. I know he doesn't do it on purpose, but his sense of humor is much sharper, and he doesn't have as much of that feeling thing attached to any given discussion. Most INFJs do, so we sometimes prefer to refrain from talking about things that might cause emotional distress, and when we do decide to speak about things that are important to us, we might put more of ourselves into those words and be more concerned about how they are perceived.

kiu said:
I would say to members if people start to complain then consider toning it down a little bit. I've had a few problems with members here but all the issues have been happily resolved. To this point, I have found no one who is unreasonable or stubborn.
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Yeah, that's the thing. Like you, I don't think anyone here is unreasonable or stubborn. In fact, I've found most people here fairly down to earth, friendly, and understanding. That's why this sort of thing bothers me.
 
Honestly, I don't understand really what is all about. I did not myself have bad experiences. if I feel that something is for public, I put it at as a post. If I don't, I write that thorugh pm. If I made it public, than I don't care if somebody is rude. That's his/her problem actually. Beside, I really can't say that anybody bully me...
Maybe you should report to mods such things.
 
This is a much different forum than 2 months ago, and completely different than when I took my first break in October.
 
[MENTION=3499]zak[/MENTION]; I have read both of your PAX threads, and I haven't seen any mocking or derogatory comments. Would you mind specifying what bothers you exactly?
 
Peppermint said:
@zak; I have read both of your PAX threads, and I haven't seen any mocking or derogatory comments. Would you mind specifying what bothers you exactly?
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As I stated in an early response, this isn't about specific comments or a particular person and it goes well beyond my threads. I don't mean to brush you off, Peppermint, but I feel like I've said as much as I have the energy to say at this point. Please take a look at my past responses if you're interested in more details.
 
zak said:
Hi, kiu. I don't know you well enough to agree or disagree with your assumption that you've caused issues (I haven't had any problems with your posts myself), but I think there might be a misunderstanding. I wasn't calling anyone out in particular....
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I do not take it personally and there is no misunderstanding but, the discontent being expressed here is getting to me. It's your first time coming forward with it and I don't begrudge you that. However, this issue has been hovering in the background for a good portion of the time that I've been here especially, in the anonymous confessions thread.

From my point of view, I call these discussions vague because no one can be named and specific examples are not given. Therefore, the offending parties are unlikely to identify themselves as a part of the problem. Those of us who are observing are not quite sure what is going on and how to identify it when it's happening so we can't make any real contribution to the solution. As an intj that is incredibly frustrating to me.

This is why I encourage the direct approach. The direct approach is not necessarily confrontational. It is possible to word your complaint in a way that addresses the heart of the problem without attacking the person. In fact, it is absolutely important the complaint be non-threatening if it is to have any chance of swaying the guilty party's behaviour. Also, the direct approach may not have immediate effect. Sometimes, it takes a little while for the offending person to process the complaint and come to accept the need to change. Therefore, some tenacity may be necessary.

After, what you've said I better understand that the difference in approaches is a result of the differences in the types. In fact, I believe the infjs empathic ways would probably wrangle a more satisfying outcome than mine would. I guess what I would like to see is the members dealing with these issues promptly, instead of letting them stew. I am a big believer in social pressure. If new members are allowed to rampage early on they will think it is fine all the time.

I hope this post has clarified my feelings and thoughts on the matter and that it hasn't implied that I want members to suffer silence.

One last issue. I'm not a fan of more rules and I have said so before. I fear more rules will kill the dynamism of the forum but, maybe, we need to be able to tell a member to stop hostile/disrespectful behaviour and have that be enforced.
 
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[MENTION=3499]zak[/MENTION], I've mentioned you because I would like to hear if you agree.

I wish to reemphasize my last point.

There is a need for a stop rule of some sort. If a member is being abused they should be able to issue a stop order and it should be enforced. Abuse is not acceptable in real life and it should not be acceptable here.
 
kiu said:
You know these sort of discussions are making me very uncomfortable because in the back of my mind, I wonder if I am one of those causing offence. I don't think I am but who knows? I am not infj so I am well aware that I am not the primary target of this forum. If I feel this way, I suspect others do too.

I understand the need for serious discussion but I also appreciate the humour. If there is a problem with a member bring it up with them. If the problem is so severe that it could be considered trolling then bring it up with the staff. This sort of vague talking around the issue is very annoying because it achieves nothing and further increases the discontent.

Now to the solutions. As a threadstarter, meaning threadstarters in general, let your voice be heard if the thread is veering dangerously off-topic. It is very easy to misinterpret the intentions of threadstarters and responders. I for one don't believe I have commented in the mysticism forum because I don't believe in mysticism and I don't think that is a welcome opinion based on the responses some members have received. Fine, I don't think those people are bothered by it. However, I wonder if those opinions are also considered forum pollution.

As to the joking, I've participated in some of it and I hope it hasn't been offensive. However, what may seem like hostility in the open may actually be something else. There is a whole different world in the PMs and if you are not in the loop, not that I am, the public shenanigans can be misleading. I personally think that some of the carousing was excessive but I guess my attitude is that nothing stays the same forever. Every forum has its cycles.

I would say to members if people start to complain then consider toning it down a little bit. I've had a few problems with members here but all the issues have been happily resolved. To this point, I have found no one who is unreasonable or stubborn.
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I, for the most part, feel the same way as the OP, and I understand where you are coming from kiu. Thank you for being conscious of what you are posting on the INFJ forum! I feel that some are not. I completely understand that this forum is open to all temperaments, and I enjoy having all the different ones here. But, this forum is a place where I came to talk about things that I could not talk about with people I know irl. Maybe that is a flaw on my part, but it made me feel better to do so. Since my return a few weeks ago, I have seen some criticism of Fe and Fi type thoughts/reactions to situations. This makes me think twice before posting anything. Like I said, I do not want the other temperaments to leave, I would just ask that they try to understand where we are coming from and that we do not all have the same outlook or perception.
 
kiu said:
@zak, I've mentioned you because I would like to hear if you agree.
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I appreciated much of what you had to say, kiu, but I honestly don't know what I think about it. I don't have enough brainpower to give you a thoughtful answer. This is not, in any sense, personal, but I'm sure it's frustrating and for that I apologize.

This thread and the ongoing situation are sucking the life out of me. I need to step away from it, sorry. I brought my thoughts and the feelings of myself and others to the attention of the staff and members and encouraged discussion, and that was my intention. I've spent all day exchanging PMs with people who feel both exceptionally positive and severely negative about what I've written, explaining my thoughts over and over again, and my feeling is that if I don't remove myself, I'll be running away from the forums in a matter of hours. I seriously don't know how you mods do it.

I hope the discussion will continue and that everyone can eventually come to some sort of understanding.
 
kiu said:
One last issue. I'm not a fan of more rules and I have said so before. I fear more rules will kill the dynamism of the forum but, maybe, we need to be able to tell a member to stop hostile/disrespectful behaviour and have that be enforced.
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+1

My sense is two things have to happen for this to be effective.

1) People who are aware of hostile/disrespectful behavior have to bring it to the attention of the moderation staff.

2) The moderation staff has to be committed to enforcement of rules when things are brought to their attention.

I hope these two things happen.
 
I didn't see "ignore" as a suggestion. If you notice a member is consistently sapping the energy of your threads, you can add that person to your ignore list.

Also, good point on the [PAX]. People who are here to horse around should stay away from such threads.
 
actually... yeah I think there is still a part of the forum that's safe enough I guess :))

I also kind of started not posting much because of the same reason. I was sort of addicted to this forum once then I just had to stop posting and even reading stuff here. I went back here just recently again just to check it out.
 
i love horsing around and i do a lot of it. it usually feels like a healthy escape for me. i generally try not to horse around on threads that are of a more serious nature and i do agree that it's important to be considerate in that way. i am a very sarcastic person though. sorry and i'll try to be more thoughtful.
 
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This is a reminder to members that it is possible to request that your blog readership is limited to certain members. This does not solve the problem entirely but perhaps, it can return some sense of control.
 
If a general question is addressed to the members of this forum, given the great diversity among INFJ's and other types, one should not be surprised that the answers posted will be equally diverse, including some that may be uncomfortable. Diversity of opinion is inevitable even when you join a forum devoted just to one personality type. How those opinions are expressed, respectfully or otherwise, should be the concern.
 
This forum is a lot safer to express your "inner side" moreso than irl. When you open yourself up, people always have that risk.. internet message boards are no different.
 
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