Jesus is pleated and other schizotypal thoughts.

[Billy]

The main moral of the New Testament, expressed in two simple laws that the sums up the entirety of the message. Love God with everything you have, and love your neighbor as you love your self. Is that not simple enough?

Oh sure its simple, thats from the abridged Bible? because the one I read through had a shit ton of stuff about killing non-believers and harlots and homosexuals and fearing god etc.

We must let go the concrete idea of God being a magical man in the sky though. All of a sudden, the idea of God is philosophical instead of close minded and concrete. Of course, you cant find wisdom in something you arent looking for it in.
@acd I need you to be more specific so I can be.

So you rebooted the Cathars version of Christianity? Impressive, the last time someone said God wasn't real they sent a crusade in and fucking killed them all... The only problem is that your religion is based on a tradition, you really cant call yourself a Christian if you dont buy into their marketing, which makes sense, the Protestants and Catholics pretty much own Christianity they saw to that with lots of blood sacrifice of Churches enemies. I understand what you mean when you say an abstract god, like a unifying force of intelligence in the cosmos, not like mentally intelligent, but how things are made of energy etc, where you see god, I see accidents, and even if it was "god" behind it all, it is either unaware of us or doesn't care about us, so its essentially irrelevant to our lives. I personally dont think there is anything there though, when I look at life, humans, civilization, I see organic machines, with preset functions, fulfilling their roles for survival. A fly or a maggot is not too dissimilar from a robot or a computer program when you break it down, the only thing that makes it special is that its naturally occurring and organic, but it runs on the same principles that life does, little 1's and 0's ons, and off's. yes and no, positive and negatives, the purest essence of energy/data.

If thats flowing from "God" then as I said, who needs it? Its unaware of us.

 

[Kmal]

Oh sure its simple, thats from the abridged Bible? because the one I read through had a shit ton of stuff about killing non-believers and harlots and homosexuals and fearing god etc.

I thought you were versed in the Bible?

34But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35One of them, a lawyer, asked Hima question, testing Him, 36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

If you read that part, youd realize it supersedes the old testament where it wants you to kill, or whatever other loophole you'll find.

I see all of humanity operate as a single unit. We're just now becoming intelligent and learning from our mistakes. Just like a teenager goes through a rebellious stage, so has mankind. We made mistakes. So the fuck what? We're a baby in our existence. We've been conscious for what, 10,000 years? 5,000? 20,000? Whatever it is, it is a couple seconds to a whole day. We have a lot of growing up to do, and we will, since we are more connected than ever before.

 

[Cornerstone]

If thats flowing from "God" then as I said, who needs it? Its unaware of us.

But why are you here now in this present moment when there has been so much before you? You are a human. You are a organic machine with preset functions, fulfilling your role for survival. Or are you just that? Do you think that is what you are? If you don't think you are and I'm going to guess that you wouldn't think your friends, family and other loved ones are either. So what you makes you think the rest of humanity is? Because you can count to a million?

I'm going to assume to agree with evolution but you seem to take yourself out of the equation as though you are somehow apart from this process. You can't be if it exists and we understand beyond a reasonable doubt that it does. So you (and I - grudgingly) are a part of this system. So what's the answer? How does it all tie together? Why are you here, on earth, today in the 21st Century and not any other time in human history or indeed the history of life on this planet. Why now?

 

[Billy]

You clearly liked the language and use of imagery in the Gospels.

Aesthetically both literature and art I Love it.

If you look at the entire history of world religion through them blinkers, yeah, you're going to end up a Nihilistic Atheist.

There is wheat and chaff in both religion and science. There is corruption where there is money and power and there is money and power in science and religion. Corruption causes the chaff. A really bad case of 'Chinese Whispers' I believe caused many of the details that just don't make any sense in the Old Testament but the New Testament was crafted many times. Refined, to suit the purposes of those in charge. These were real people, they had lives. They had issues and political rivalries. There were bribes, murders backstabbings and blackmail - just like today! You've just got to take what you can out of it and try to see past a lot. The way Muir is talking about societies and corruption and marketing in this thread is so applicable to religion. It's of supreme importance to know who has had control of which side of the story you get. Muir is talking about newspapers but the principle is completely transferable to all world relgions. The history of the religion and who has been in control of what is 'Orthodox' is as important to understanding as the texts themselves because without being able to separate the wheat from the chaff you'll never see the glimmers of truth that remain.

Yeah, like all human systems it was abused. What I find ridiculous though is how we still cling to these things that we inherited as a culture from our less advanced forefathers and need to find this sad need to put it into our modern lives in a palatable way so we don't have to feel guilty for abandoning our heritage, its nuts, just let it go.

It wouldn't be here in so many forms that have so many overlapping and complimenting aspects if it was 'crap' and there was nothing to it.

This is teetering on sloppy thinking. Effect doesn't make cause. I look at God and religion as a veil we draw to separate ourselves from scary thoughts, but its slowly being hemmed back and away with time and as we evolve away from needing place holder beliefs. I don't mean that offensively.

I don't think the Truth is limited to religious belief, either. Though the greatest teachers often have had religions built around them despite their teachings never appearing to want recognition and worship or idol status.

True, from what I have read of the historical Jesus (IF he existed) was more of a rebel and a naysayer of the Romans than a religious person. Kind of like a reformer type... of course his simple peasant illiterate followers couldnt think those things up on their own, they needed a leader, not just a leader but a GOD who could debunk the corrupt practices they felt were going down... my point is, why replace 1 god with another god?

It's a personal journey and I'm getting there my way and you've got to get to it your way. There's way more to religion and the everything than you could have possibly studied if you're coming to these conclusions. If you're looking at the answer to everything within any boxed off segment you just won't find it. Defining what is and isn't a characteristic of a religious person is no different than those who branded people 'Heretics' throught history. Do you see that?

That is of course a matter of opinion, I dont think there is anything more to Religion, certainly not cosmic truth. Its beautiful at times and it makes us FEEL good... but that doesn't make it real. And yes I CAN see that, as I said, its impossible to know the truth. Which is why I don't say Science is the truth, I don't say Jesus is the truth... ultimately I don't think there IS any truth, there is just what we make out of this soup of organic materials we are a part of. When I say (seemingly definitively) that Christianity/Religion is wrong, I dont mean to imply I know that (for a fact) but I am saying that chances are, its just wrong. Out of all the cosmos the son of god was born on Earth? pffft..... c'mon. Theres BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of planets in this Galaxy alone and chances are some of them have life of some form on it, why would we be so privileged? Statistically, we wouldnt be. Even so, in your previous statement you said that there are so many people into it that it cant be just coincidence (roughly) so why cant I do the same with religious people? I believe that the majority of religious people hold on to religion for a few basic reasons, and none of them are ultimately any good ( to me) which is why I left that stuff behind long ago.

Anyway, I've gone on enough. I'm sure you've thought about...many things. I've re-read this a couple of times and it seems to make sense so if there is anything I've missed that doesn't, just ask. I considered myself Atheist for the last five years but have been doubting it for about six months and I'm looking into it again for the reasons I've just talked about so I hope you don't think I'm taking digs or saying this like it's obvious stuff.

ha, I getcha, truthfully I would say I am an Agnostic since I find it arrogant to say something is factual when it is not, but I do lean towards atheism since it makes more sense.

 

[acd]

Some people lie and murder. Some people lie and murder while lieing about believing in a religion. What are we gonna do about the unchanging past?

Well, it's not just the past, it's also the present.

I suppose my point was that I see little in the world to validate religion or it's merits--a long history of cruelty and injustice that extends into the present.
To me, it seems to be the root of much of the world's strife and injustice...
But I'm not interested in getting into that with you here. We don't have to agree.

 

[Billy]

Some people lie and murder. Some people lie and murder while lieing about believing in a religion. What are we gonna do about the unchanging past?

Learn from it.

There are still people killing people in the name of religion everyday that has nothing to do with resources, do you think the guy who is strapping bombs on himself to kill infidels is worried about the land? He is appeasing God. He was put to task by someone who is using the religion to influence people, but that guy pulling the trigger isnt screaming "praise palestine!" he is saying "praise god"

They still burn witches in Africa by the way, you can find videos online.

Why is it that religion flourishes with the less educated and 3rd world?

 

[Kmal]

Well, it's not just the past.

When was the last massacre in God's name?

There are still people killing people in the name of religion everyday that has nothing to do with resources, do you think the guy who is strapping bombs on himself to kill infidels is worried about the land? He is appeasing God. He was put to task by someone who is using the religion to influence people, but that guy pulling the trigger isnt screaming "praise palestine!" he is saying "praise god"

I'd say he's more appeasing his country and the people who control his country. You dont appease God by disobeying what he said. Or, where in the koran does it say to kill infidels in his name? I'm completely unversed in it.

 

[Billy]

I can't take anyone who pulls that line seriously. If you think religion is what caused people to do those things, you're very naive. Take away religion, and some human beings will find another excuse to massacre people and wipe out entire cultures. You might as well be arguing that people kill people because guns want them to.

No. People kill people because they decide to. Anything that exists can be twisted by corrupt people and used for a bad purpose. Including religion. It can also be appropriated for good purposes, as religion often is.

Again, as I said, while the guys at the top (who are usually way smarter) tend to use religion for those purposes, they would be hardpressed to do it themselves if they didnt have so many volunteers, and I assure you the common religious man isnt killing in the name of land conquest, he is killing in the name of god. Why? Because he misunderstood that the bible wasnt written by god but by man, but then, thats why they invented faith and public shaming.

 

[acd]

When was the last massacre in God's name?

Seriously?
Just because it didn't happen in the US doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And massacres aren't the only vile thing people do in the name of God..
They may be the most extreme, but certainly not the most vile.

 

[Billy]

I thought you were versed in the Bible?

If you read that part, youd realize it supersedes the old testament where it wants you to kill, or whatever other loophole you'll find.

I see all of humanity operate as a single unit. We're just now becoming intelligent and learning from our mistakes. Just like a teenager goes through a rebellious stage, so has mankind. We made mistakes. So the fuck what? We're a baby in our existence. We've been conscious for what, 10,000 years? 5,000? 20,000? Whatever it is, it is a couple seconds to a whole day. We have a lot of growing up to do, and we will, since we are more connected than ever before.

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. — Luke 19:27

was Luke in the NT or OT I forgeeet....... hmmmm

Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent.

​

Revelation 19:11-21

describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). ​

He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).

I look forward to resisting Jesus and his armies of crazed faith followers in the apocalypse.

 

[Kmal]

@Billy so you believe it will come true? also, I like how the translations are all very different in their descriptions of things. some are more concrete, some are more abstract. That is telling in itself. some think it is a war within the self, some think it is a world war.

Seriously?
Just because it didn't happen in the US doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And massacres aren't the only vile thing people do in the name of God..
They may be the most extreme, but certainly not the most vile.

I won't get into who is making the rules. But you can think about that.

Do you know if and where in the Bible it says to kill in Gods name that isnt later revoked? People lie and use God for evil things, that doesnt make God evil.

 

[acd]

Do you know if and where in the Bible it says to kill in Gods name that isnt later revoked? People lie and use God for evil things, that doesnt make God evil.

The bible is contradictory.

People interpret it as they choose. If they want to kill, discriminate, or oppress, they will find a verse to back it up.

I have read the bible I know the verses, 'God causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust...' And all the verses about false prophets and false believers...
It doesn't matter. You choose to believe it or you choose not to. People choose to live their lives according to how they interpret the words.
You aren't any more right than me or anyone else. These things are unknowable and impossible to confirm..
That is what makes religion such a powerful tool for social control and injustice.



People are willing to believe anything to avoid being afraid. Religion plants that fear and then provides the 'solution'.
I don't find it surprising that people who have schizophrenic break downs often have religious delusions of grandeur.. There is a very thin line between insanity and fear.

 

[Billy]

But why are you here now in this present moment when there has been so much before you? You are a human. You are a organic machine with preset functions, fulfilling your role for survival. Or are you just that? Do you think that is what you are? If you don't think you are and I'm going to guess that you wouldn't think your friends, family and other loved ones are either. So what you makes you think the rest of humanity is? Because you can count to a million?

Dude, watching my loved ones is what lead me to believe we are organic machines with preset functions, you apparently don't know my mother. I am no different, the only thing that makes me any different is that I have LIMITED perception that is better than theirs and many people around me. I find this to be more of a curse than a blessing however, do you think I want to believe this stuff? If I could feel pumped up with love because I am doing what I was raised to do like most people when they discuss "that strange feeling in church you get" it is what it is, social conditioning. If I could take a pill and forget all this shit and wake up into that, I quite possibly would. The Reeaaalllly fucked up part is how many Religious people like my mother would ALSO want me to take that pill, because to most people following along the rule of life we have inherited is far more important than thinking for oneself.

I'm going to assume to agree with evolution but you seem to take yourself out of the equation as though you are somehow apart from this process. You can't be if it exists and we understand beyond a reasonable doubt that it does. So you (and I - grudgingly) are a part of this system. So what's the answer? How does it all tie together? Why are you here, on earth, today in the 21st Century and not any other time in human history or indeed the history of life on this planet. Why now?

Those questions lose their relevance in the vastness of the universe, thats the thing. I may as well not exist, since I wont sample 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 of all there is in this universe. I am a fucking speck, a fraction of a dot, a slight whisper lost a midst an orchestra. There is nothing special about me, my life, or my existence. Or yours on the big picture level. it only seems like there should be because we are still animals, stuck in 1 body, with 1 voice internally. Its natural to see ourselves as the center of existence when we are not. To me, there are no answers. We have answers and questions within the system of humanity, but that system is still very very young, around a million years old, and its still evolving. There is no point to any of it, which I suppose is why I never grasped the point of the question "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to see it, did it fall?" of course it fucking fell, the universe is much larger and older than mans perceptions of it. I am SO SICK of us elevating ourselves pridefully into this privileged position of existence, did you know that one day our sun is going to expand and incinerate the earth, then blow off its hydrogen and shrink to the size of a city block and be a dwarf star? The earth will be gone, so you tell me, whats the fucking point?

The only way I dont lose my sanity over such concepts is that I am a bit of an existentialist, I have said this here many times over. I create my OWN meaning for my brief life and what it is, inside the system of our civilization it has worth, outside of it, its nothing, its a cosmic jerkoff fest where we pretend we are better than the organic materials we come from.

 

[Billy]

When was the last massacre in God's name?


I'd say he's more appeasing his country and the people who control his country. You dont appease God by disobeying what he said. Or, where in the koran does it say to kill infidels in his name? I'm completely unversed in it.

They dont have a country, thats the whole point of why they are pissed, the British handed it over to the "white jews" from Europe and America, imagine if a bunch of people who didnt look anything like you or your extended family showed up and said hey this is our land now because we follow a religion some dead people did 1000s of years ago? you'd be pretty pissed. So I understand why the leaders are all against Israel etc, but if you think that the average suicide bomber is out there blowing himself up because he wants to appease his leaders you are deluding yourself.

 

[Billy]

@Billy so you believe it will come true? also, I like how the translations are all very different in their descriptions of things. some are more concrete, some are more abstract. That is telling in itself. some think it is a war within the self, some think it is a world war.


Do you know if and where in the Bible it says to kill in Gods name that isnt later revoked? People lie and use God for evil things, that doesnt make God evil.

No I dont believe it, but it would be pretty awesome to be on the sniper team who blows Jesus head off from 800 yards. Oh and to help ACD, I posted it right there the question you asked her, Jesus said to kill non-believers. Maybe you can show us where he later changed his mind and said not to do that?

 

[Saru Inc]

I dont know if you are religious or not. but if you were I would hastily reply that only one of us fears the unknown, and its not the nihilistic atheist.

Nihilism is essentially having your soul perpetually divide by zero, for infinity.

 

[Billy]

Nihilism is essentially having your soul perpetually divide by zero, for infinity.

but but... I dont have a soul... and time is irrelevant inside of a black hole! CONUNDRUM!

 

[Saru Inc]

but but... I dont have a soul... and time is irrelevant inside of a black hole! CONUNDRUM!

Who said it was a PHYSICAL BLACK HOLE!


Also when you try to divide by zero the calculator just says undefined, thus your belief in nothing has been confirmed! Since your belief that there is nothing is true then there must be something, but if theres something then you're....


Its like the grandfather paradox except instead of killing your grandpa you make him go gay.

So its like Futurama, which is still true because that show makes anyone a nihilist.

 

[Kmal]

Jesus said to kill non-believers. Maybe you can show us where he later changed his mind and said not to do that?

He said he was, not for you to do it.

 

[magister343]

If you read that part, youd realize it supersedes the old testament where it wants you to kill, or whatever other loophole you'll find.

The argument that it supersedes the Old Testament is somewhat undercut by the fact that the two commandments given are both direct quotations from the Law of Moses.