Jesus said "No one can come to the Father except through me". Discuss.

[Kmal]

"because they don't exist." Because who doesn't exist? Innocent people?

Okay, starting over.

Missionaries. Their job is to spread the word of God, because recognizing Jesus as your savior and so on and so forth, gets you into heaven. Yes? Yes. Okay. So now we have an aboriginal tribe who has never been reached by missionaries. By no fault of their own, they have never heard of God, Jesus, or Christianity. Let's say the chief dies. He was a good man. He was moral, he cared for his tribe and his family. He was just. He was loved. Simply because of the fact that he has never heard of Christianity, the Christian God sends him to hell. Though it's not his fault. Though there may not be such thing as an innocent person, they were innocent and good by their own standards, and you'd think an "all-loving" God would understand that. But apparently he does not.

That, my friends, is a dick move. And precisely why I always found God the greatest antagonist in literature.

that's what Christianity says happened - Christ died for your sins, even the unbelievers, that you may become perfect.

 

[Billy]

or a religion we cant understand...

 

[PrincessFirefighter]

was said chief perfect?

Of course not. He was human. That argument is illegitimate seeing as all people who supposedly get into heaven are still imperfect. Though they may have accepted Jesus as their savior, that does not make them perfect. Jesus did not die for the sins of those who believed in him, he died for the sins of all people. Your argument makes no sense.

 

[PrincessFirefighter]

that's what Christianity says happened - Christ died for your sins, even the unbelievers, that you may become perfect.

Precisely. That's the argument that I'm trying to make, but The Doctor insists that the chief would go to hell because he was imperfect.

 

[bubah]

[MENTION=5094]PrincessFirefighter[/MENTION]

Precisely. That's the argument that I'm trying to make, but The Doctor insists that the chief would go to hell because he was imperfect.

Personally, I don't think we need to concern ourselves over who does and who doesn't go to Hell - that's God's problem. As Christians, we know that Christ is definitely the way to Heaven - is anything else? Possibly, but we just can't know for sure.

For your example of the "chief," there are a number of verses about this:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

So here, we are told that the conscience can be a law of God upon every man - if it naturally agrees with the given law. For those without the written "law," and presumably the "word" of Christ as well, their conscience becomes the standard by which God judges them for their sins or righteousness. If anyone defies their conscience, then they sin.

You could then say "So Christ isn't needed afterall!" to which I would disagree. A law of the conscience is vague and broad compared to the written law, which is even more convoluted (and thus vague in that sense) than the Message of Christ. Anyone seeking to live out their God given purpose in life - serve God to the fullest - would find it very difficult to know what that is by just following their conscience because they would still not know much of God's intent for the world. Furthermore, can it be said that no one has defied their own conscience? If someone has, then they have condemned themselves. Not knowing Christ or of God, they cannot be forgiven.

EDIT: I shall add that although Christ died for all people's sins, you cannot be forgiven if you do not want to be forgiven, or if you do not accept forgiveness. It is a gift, one that to be received must be acknowledged and accepted. So the argument that we are all already forgiven - believers or not - is false. God is perfectly willing to forgive, we're not always willing to be forgiven. Often times, we don't understand how we need to be forgiven.

Your objection hinges upon people being judged by standards that they've never known. This is unBiblical, you are judged by what you know, which is further reiterated here:

Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment.

And if the words of the Apostles are not convincing to you, then let the Word of God in Christ speak:

"...And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."

Furthermore, you also claim that God casts people to Hell. While the Bible does often use the imagery of God condemning those Hell, it's actually not God that casts judgment - God is the standard by which you speak judgment unto yourself. In a way He does condemn, but it is simply His existence that condemns the sinner, not any actual act of judgment. If anyone does an actual act, it's Christ at the day of judgment. He who died for your sins gets to say who is forgiven of them, and who withheld their sins from mercy. Undeniably, He will judge you by your heart, and not by things that existed long after He did (EX: Apostolic Epistles), unless you know them.

By-in-large, the greatest right we have in existence is the ability to Choose or Not Choose God - not even the Angels can deny God's existence, but we can. It is your God given right to pursue an existence without the Creator, or an existence with the Creator. If you truly want an existence with the Creator - God - then you'll pursue His word, seek His heart, and pray to Him. If you don't want to exist with God, then ultimately, you will not believe in Him even if you say you do. To Christians, and Jews - Heaven is an eternal existence with God, Hell is an eternal existence without God. Neither are they technically rewards or punishments, even though Christian literature teaches them as such. Christians, being amongst those who want to be with God, would see Heaven as a reward, and Hell was a punishment, but that's our bias. Ultimately, we are encouraged to not judge others, and respect their decisions they've made with their God Given-right of freewill, because God will do the same. He will not force His creation to be with Him, so He will not force you to be in Heaven if your life does not reflect a desire to be with Him in Heaven. Would not spending eternity with something your reject be Hell?

If you enjoy your God-given life, in this God-created world, without seeking God, then I pray that what your heart truly wants are things unGodly, so that in this way Hell may be your Heaven, because in denying God, you've already made Heaven your Hell. But if your heart truly pursues things unGodly, then I don't think you'd love your God-given existence in this God-created world, because they are of God.

EDIT: I shall add here that the Bible encourages a relationship with God. Even just knowing of God, Christ, and forgiveness will not save. You have to believe it, and want it.

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock."

Thus knowledge is not the sole source of salvation, you can still be condemned. It ultimately comes down to your desire to be with God, and the pursuit of that.

 

[Jack]

"No one can come to the Father except through me."

Whether he/she knows it or not.

Anyway, C.S. Lewis always seems to be more eloquent than I.

From the last battle:

"Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he had truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.

In this sense, were you an unbeliever right now, I imagine that if you're going to live as a Christian anyway, you can see that it doesn't hurt to hope.

 

[Barnabas]

or a religion we cant understand...

Well, it's not like your expected to understand Spanish without trying to learn the language first and your certainly not expected to learn that language on your own.

 

[knight in battle]

[MENTION=991]Altruistic Muse[/MENTION]

Does it matter whether faith or works?

If faith is what matters, then works don't. Faith itself might produce works, though it may not produce enough works for the tastes of people around us. In fact, one's works can be utterly terrible on the whole.

The question is: Are works enough? Of course, this depends on how perfect the Judge needs us to be. And if there is no Judge, then the question is irrelevant. Can a person commit genocide upon millions and wash it away by rescuing millions? Which works are good? Which works are good enough? How much?

If nothing is enough, the question approaches futility.
If something is enough, then we have something to work with :w: