Jesus said "No one can come to the Father except through me". Discuss.

[AKM]

Christianity is based largely on the 10 commandments. For those not familiar with them they are:

Exodus 20 (KJV) (Numbers are verse numbers.)
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13Thou shalt not kill. 14Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15Thou shalt not steal. 16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The "simplified" version:



They say a lot. Can any one of us successfully do all of these? Not on our own. That is where Christ comes into the picture. Through Christ's sacrifice, we are given grace, that our transgressions may be overlooked. If we know what is wrong, but we do it anyway and don't have any remorse for the act, we are essentially saying that we don't care about God, and therefore don't care if we are saved or not. In typing that I realized that this whole conversation is a moot point. If you care about God and want to please him, you will try to be who he'd want you to be, and would accept the gift he's given us. If you don't care about God, then you don't care about the gift, and therefore why care if you're going to Heaven or not?

The one unpardonable sin is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31-32 (KJV)
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The unpardonable sin is redundant (may not be the right word, just go with me here.) If I curse the Holy Spirit, then I obviously do not have love for God, therefore don't care if I'm pardoned, so whether it's forgiven or not I don't care.

I hope I'm up to the response I might get from this post...and for the record, I am a Christian who does their best to follow the 10 commandments out of love for my God. I pray that the words shared in this conversation might be considered with love and caring, and not anger or hate.

 

[Apone]

If you don't care about God, then you don't care about the gift, and therefore why care if you're going to Heaven or not?

You're right, I don't care... it just irks me that some people think that they're going to get a huge reward just for believing what they do, while everyone else is either going to be punished or walk away empty-handed.

 

[AKM]

You're right, I don't care... it just irks me that some people think that they're going to get a huge reward just for believing what they do, while everyone else is either going to be punished or walk away empty-handed.

I think you're letting it bother you too much. The simplistic way you're speaking here makes me think of children. If you have two young children, one who loves vanilla cookies and dislikes chocolate cookies (we'll call her "Vanilla"), and another who loves chocolate cookies and dislikes vanilla cookes (we'll call her "Chocolate) and give Vanilla a vanilla cookie, and Chocolate a chocolate cookie, they will each believe they have the best and that the other is missing out, when in actuality they both have exactly what they want. (Lord help me for comparing faith to cookies!)

 

[Kmal]

I'm simply stating what I do know. Which is that we don't know.

thats funny on many levels, and why faith and beliefs are awesome. open mindedness > all

@Apone you now realize the power of imagination and why its inherent in all beliefs. i see yours rationalizing certain things.

 

[Apone]

I think you're letting it bother you too much. The simplistic way you're speaking here makes me think of children. If you have two young children, one who loves vanilla cookies and dislikes chocolate cookies (we'll call her "Vanilla"), and another who loves chocolate cookies and dislikes vanilla cookes (we'll call her "Chocolate) and give Vanilla a vanilla cookie, and Chocolate a chocolate cookie, they will each believe they have the best and that the other is missing out, when in actuality they both have exactly what they want. (Lord help me for comparing faith to cookies!)

Precise, economical speech always trumps gratuitous verbosity, especially if that verbosity unnecessarily complicates your meaning.

And I know what you're getting at but by comparing religions to cookies you're also insinuating that they're harmless, which isn't always the case. And while these types of debates never really resolve anything and are arguably futile, they do force people to re-examine what they believe and why-- and by articulating that they're actually confronting an important aspect of themselves that they would otherwise ignore in favor of things like 'What is your sexual fetish?' or 'OMG GUYZ CHECK OUT THIS YOUTUBE VIDEO LOL'.

 

[Altruistic Muse]

Ok. My belief is that we are too limited as a species and culture to figure such things out yet. As such anything we believe is purely speculative and on its face more than most likely false since guessing it right would be so out of normal lucky that it's almost easier to say its impossible to know. Any attempt to say you know better when you don't is simply the blind leading the blind. And their darkness is woven of ignorance.

Ok. I kind of get what you're saying here, and it's not entirely closed minded. Have you ever read up on near death experiences? They're pretty interesting. And I think that lots of religions might stem from this sort of thing as well. If Jesus existed, people saw Him and accepted Him as Saviour, and then had a NDE, and met Him at the gates, well there starts being a case for that as truth.

 

[PrincessFirefighter]

Your also making a mistake on what hell is like, but then again your obviously not interested in learning. You just want to make your opinion on the subject known, which is fine, this is a forum after all.

Edit: maybe I'm a little upset and that coming through in my previous comment. If you do indeed wish to learn about the biblical state of man and why Hell exist and more prominently what Hell is and why man goes there, then let's go through a bit of biblical history to try and give a better view of the story.

Edit again: I just spent the past half hour typing a post on Sin, Hell, Heaven and God and it just got kicked. I give up.

I spent two years of my life studying religious history and reading multiple religious texts. I also went to churches, synagogues, mosques and meditation temples. I read the Koran, the Bible, the sayings of Confucius, the Tao Te Ching, and parts of the Torah and the Avesta. I talked with pastors, rabbis, and a imam. I visited the Vatican, I volunteered a summer working at a church camp, and I taped every discovery channel special on the histories of religion that I possible could. I read opinion articles and religious newspapers. I went to a cathedral and tried praying.

If the problem here is my ignorance, or me not wanting to learn, then I don't think we have a problem.

 

[bubah]

I spent two years of my life studying religious history and reading multiple religious texts. I also went to churches, synagogues, mosques and meditation temples. I read the Koran, the Bible, the sayings of Confucius, the Tao Te Ching, and parts of the Torah and the Avesta. I talked with pastors, rabbis, and a imam. I visited the Vatican, I volunteered a summer working at a church camp, and I taped every discovery channel special on the histories of religion that I possible could. I read opinion articles and religious newspapers. I went to a cathedral and tried praying.

If the problem here is my ignorance, or me not wanting to learn, then I don't think we have a problem.

It always makes me happy to see people pursuing the issues of religion with sincerity and intelligence. I'm really glad you've taken it so seriously, as I feel religion, or rather, your beliefs and relationship with God (or lack thereof) are the most important issues in life.

In my experience with this search, it's less about finding something that convinces you, and finding out if you really want to be convinced by anything, and why. So many people will ignore religion, evoke it when it's convenient to their goals, or assume that a non-theist universe or deist universe must be true because nothing convinces them of a theistic reality. I realized myself that I wasn't willing to accept any philosophical/theological position because I rejected another - I was not willing to accept (defend, identify with, or live by) an atheistic-universe view simply because theism wasn't convincing me, that shouldn't release the atheistic position of my scrutiny - it's not a default. Yet so many people who will defend that position don't bother understanding its implications - they are only skeptical of a theistic universe, not an atheistic one. I used to be a skeptic of both. When I sat myself down and asked myself what I was really wanting, and why I wanted it, I was able to identify biases in my decision making, why I was rejecting certain things for reasons other than the merit of the idea itself.

Finding out your motivations for this search is the first and most important step, then what you've learned can actually aid your decision making process better. It's not a case of ignorance or not wanting to know, it's a case of whether or not you want a conclusion, and why you do or don't.

 

[acd]

What do you think the implications are of being an atheist?
Please don't say moral relativity. Or Hell.
I feel I've given quite a bit of thought on the implications of my beliefs.

 

[Altruistic Muse]

What do you think the implications are of being an atheist?
Please don't say moral relativity. Or Hell.
I feel I've given quite a bit of thought on the implications of my beliefs.

I don't think the Bible talks much about hell. I'm not sure, it's difficult to answer. I guess, if there is a God, which I believe there is, and you haven't demeaned or slighted Him, you'd probably just get more of what you thought on Earth. So, you believed you would just cease to exist, so that's probably what would happen.

 

[Kmal]

What do you think the implications are of being an atheist?
Please don't say moral relativity. Or Hell.
I feel I've given quite a bit of thought on the implications of my beliefs.

nothing as long as you understand certain things regarding your interaction with others and the gut feelings you get with your own life. lots of times, its just a different label for the same thing.

 

[acd]

nothing as long as you understand certain things regarding your interaction with others and the gut feelings you get with your own life. lots of times, its just a different label for the same thing.

What would anybody who disbelieves in God be less likely to be understanding of in their interactions with others?
Does believing in God make someone a more kind and compassionate and understanding person? Even a more moral person?
I'm going to say it doesn't, that unbelievers are no less likely than believers to be fully aware of their interactions with others as well as their own conscience.

 

[Kmal]

What would anybody who disbelieves in God be less likely to be understanding of in their interactions with others?
Does believing in God make someone a more kind and compassionate and understanding person? Even a more moral person?
I'm going to say it doesn't, that unbelievers are no less likely than believers to be fully aware of their interactions with others as well as their own conscience.

no, but having it reinforced through certain things can help it. the more youre aware of something, the more likely you are to do it. having a text to go by, id say, would allow more chance to follow what you want to follow.
im talking about efficiency, more of a chance. you dont have to be a christian to understand where theyre coming from. a friend of mine is staunch against the christian religion, but he read the bible and says "know your enemy as you know your self."
knowledge is power.

 

[acd]

no, but having it reinforced through certain things can help it. the more youre aware of something, the more likely you are to do it. having a text to go by, id say, would allow more chance to follow what you want to follow.
im talking about efficiency, more of a chance. you dont have to be a christian to understand where theyre coming from. a friend of mine is staunch against the christian religion, but he read the bible and says "know your enemy as you know your self."
knowledge is power.

It sounds like you are saying that the more something is drilled into your head, the less you question it and the more you follow it.
Are we still talking about issues of morality? As in, the more you read in the bible about how you are supposed to behave, the more likely you are to behave that way?
Can you be a little more specific in your wording?

I'm not sure how to say this, but it's suspect to me that someone would continually have to reinforce a belief onto oneself. I've been Christian before.. and hung out with only Christians... and I have been told that I had to read the bible daily and attend bible studies.. and it was frowned upon when I hung out with non-Christians and listened to "worldly" music and watched "worldly" movies because as a Christian, I was supposed to be "not of this world." Back then, even in my fervor, part of me thought that was problematic because I was cutting myself off from other ideas and people, and that meant I wasn't making informed decisions about my beliefs.


Anyway. I agree that if you are going to hold a position on something, you had better be knowledgeable of the other side.

 

[Kmal]

@acd like a recipe for a new food. sometimes, you wont have it memorized after the first time you cook it. that textual recipe will help you until you can cook it from memory.
do you question a recipe? question its truth? make changes to it before youve cooked it the first time? if you like that recipe, would you follow the recipe, or cook a modifed different one?
Yes, we are chefs of spirituality!

Are we still talking about issues of morality? As in, the more you read in the bible about how you are supposed to behave, the more likely you are to behave that way?
Can you be a little more specific in your wording?

I'm not sure how to say this, but it's curious to me that someone would continually have to reinforce a belief onto oneself.

yeah, if it rings true in your heart, and you want to follow it, then having a reference will help you. plus, the chances of you having a photographic memory and memorizing the entire bible is slim. if you think the bible is poppycock, then why would you want to refer to it? i personally think it have some truth to it.

 

[acd]

@acd like a recipe for a new food. sometimes, you wont have it memorized after the first time you cook it. that textual recipe will help you until you can cook it from memory.
do you question a recipe? question its truth? make changes to it before youve cooked it the first time? if you like that recipe, would you follow the recipe, or cook a modifed different one?
Yes, we are chefs of spirituality!


yeah, if it rings true in your heart, and you want to follow it, then having a reference will help you. plus, the chances of you having a photographic memory and memorizing the entire bible is slim. if you think the bible is poppycock, then why would you want to refer to it? i personally think it have some truth to it.

That is an interesting analogy, but I think it does not exactly apply.
Spirituality and world view are not as simple as a step by step recipe--where there is no room for personal experience and deliberation.

Everything is a choice. You choose to believe or disbelieve. Whatever someone wants to believe, they will find the evidence to support their worldview, whether it is in the bible or not.

 

[Kmal]

That is an interesting analogy, but I think it does not exactly apply.
Spirituality and world view are not as simple as a step by step recipe--where there is no room for personal experience and deliberation.

Anyway. Everything is a choice. You choose to believe or disbelieve. Whatever someone wants to believe, they will find the evidence to support their worldview.

re:bolded, when youre granted spiritual discernment, there is. though yes, i agree that people will find what they want to support their views. i think an open mind is key.

 

[acd]

re:bolded, when youre granted spiritual discernment, there is. though yes, i agree that people will find what they want to support their views. i think an open mind is key.

But how to you know that you have been granted discernment, or if you have been properly programmed to believe what is in the book?
You still have to choose to believe that God granted you discernment.
There's no way to know that for sure. You didn't take a course and weren't certified and handed a diploma by God.

How do you keep an open mind when you have assured yourself that you possess discernment of what is spiritually correct and what is not?

 

[Kmal]

But how to you know that you have been granted discernment, or if you have been properly programmed to believe what is in the book?
You still have to choose to believe that God granted you discernment.
There's no way to know that for sure. You didn't take a course and weren't certified and handed a diploma by God.

How do you keep an open mind when you have assured yourself that you possess discernment of what is spiritually correct and what is not?

you'd have to understand what God is (I think God is, or at least what Christians think God is. i dont necessarily identify with Christianity, but like to understand it and enjoy discussing it) to understand where i'm coming from. though, the 3rd line is ironic

Definition of DISCERNMENT

1
: the quality of being able to grasp and comprehend what is obscure : skill in discerning

2
: an act of perceiving or discerning something

you have to know for your self, discern spiritual things.

as for an open mind, that is simple-- you dont know everything; yet.

 

[acd]

To discern is to judge.

It is not about being open-minded.