Jesus said "No one can come to the Father except through me". Discuss.

Billy said:
But that's kind of lazy. Why are your beliefs more valid than other beliefs? Because they are yours? What system do you use internally to verify that your beliefs are more correct?
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Seems this whole thread has gotten a bit off topic, if you want you can create a new thread with the same question(or just lift the quotes from this thread) and I'll be happy to answer your question there.
 
I think it's relative to the discussion on many levels. If we can understand how 1 person can believe without putting in the effort behind it maybe we can learn something about how Christianity like other ideas spread.
 
Billy said:
I think it's relative to the discussion on many levels. If we can understand how 1 person can believe without putting in the effort behind it maybe we can learn something about how Christianity like other ideas spread.
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More like berate someone for having beliefs.
 
Billy said:
No qualms with beliefs here, just that they should be fact checked.
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If that is the case, then why don't you present your deeply held, fact-based convictions?
 
Billy said:
No qualms with beliefs here, just that they should be fact checked.
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You base your assumption on the idea that I or other christians don't put any effort into their beliefs, the fact of the matter is that every individual comes to a belief system via a combination of experience, and study. An individual looks at the facts and the tries to come to a conclusion as to why they are as they are, Different people come to different conclusions. I've looked at the facts, I've study the subject and I believe that Christian monotheism seems to fit the best.
 
Matt3737 said:
If that is the case, then why don't you present your deeply held, fact-based convictions?
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They wouldn't have to do with religion, that's a smokescreen. As such they would be off topic in this thread.
 
Billy said:
They wouldn't have to do with religion, that's a smokescreen. As such they would be off topic in this thread.
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So, present your conviction on the topic at hand so it may also be fact checked as equally as you insist on doing to others.
 
The Doctor said:
You base your assumption on the idea that I or other christians don't put any effort into their beliefs, the fact of the matter is that every individual comes to a belief system via a combination of experience, and study. An individual looks at the facts and the tries to come to a conclusion as to why they are as they are, Different people come to different conclusions. I've looked at the facts, I've study the subject and I believe that Christian monotheism seems to fit the best.
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But I thought that thinking things through with facts was closed minded. That keeping an open mind and not verifying things with physical evidence confuses the believer... Lord knows it was confusing for a lot of so called Christians when god kept fooling them by hiding dinosaur bones in the earth.
 
Matt3737 said:
So, present your conviction on the topic at hand so it may also be fact checked as equally as you insist on doing to others.
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Ok. My belief is that we are too limited as a species and culture to figure such things out yet. As such anything we believe is purely speculative and on its face more than most likely false since guessing it right would be so out of normal lucky that it's almost easier to say its impossible to know. Any attempt to say you know better when you don't is simply the blind leading the blind. And their darkness is woven of ignorance.
 
Billy said:
Ok. My belief is that we are too limited as a species and culture to figure such things out yet. As such anything we believe is purely speculative and on its face more than most likely false since guessing it right would be so out of normal lucky that it's almost easier to say its impossible to know. Any attempt to say you know better when you don't is simply the blind leading the blind. And their darkness is woven of ignorance.
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So, one the one hand you have a purely speculative endeavour and then you contradict yourself by giving the most likely (i.e. yours) interpretation of such. Way to show your ignorance.
 
Matt3737 said:
So, one the one hand you have a purely speculative endeavour and then you contradict yourself by giving the most likely (i.e. yours) interpretation of such. Way to show your ignorance.
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I think you are reaching with your statement. My unbelief is not a real belief any more than bald is a type of hair color. I'm not pretending to know what's right, I'm simply stating what I do know. Which is that we don't know.
 
Billy said:
I think you are reaching with your statement. My unbelief is not a real belief any more than bald is a type of hair color. I'm not pretending to know what's right, I'm simply stating what I do know. Which is that we don't know.
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Exactly, you're ignorant.

ig
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Billy said:
Well yeah in that case so are you, we all are. Contextually you got that word mixed honor you think you're clever, I'll go with the latter, /golf clap
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I know enough not to overextend myself in an argument. We are all ignorant and we all have equally valid beliefs. You don't have to agree with anyone else's beliefs, but if you start to attack them you leave yourself open and rightly deserve a retort. Have some humility.
 
Matt3737 said:
I know enough not to overextend myself in an argument. We are all ignorant and we all have equally valid beliefs. You don't have to agree with anyone else's beliefs, but if you start to attack them you leave yourself open and rightly deserve a retort. Have some humility.
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What retort? You looked really foolish trying to rap my knuckles in support of what you are trying to support. If it was meant to humble me, well you must not know me very well...
 
Billy said:
What retort? You looked really foolish trying to rap my knuckles in support of what you are trying to support. If it was meant to humble me, well you must not know me very well...
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Please, for my sake, just try not to be so combative towards other people's views and I promise to do the same to yours. If [MENTION=1848]The Doctor[/MENTION] had done likewise to you I would also criticise him for being so belligerent towards others. If you don't accept their views, tell them and tell them why you can't accept those views because that's your right, but don't insinuate personal attacks because this is how it ends up. Hurt feelings and nasty words. I don't disagree with your beliefs, [MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION], I just think some more civility is needed or flame wars like this break out and I have a very bad habit of letting my anger get the best of me. I'm sure [MENTION=1848]The Doctor[/MENTION] is more than able to defend himself even if you were going to be aggressive towards him, but it is something that I tend to jump on if I'm present at the time.

I'm sorry [MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION]. I'm off for now.
 
From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 13:24-30King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]24.....[/SUP] The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[SUP]25[/SUP]But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
[SUP]26[/SUP]But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[SUP]27[/SUP]So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[SUP]28[/SUP]He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
[SUP]29[/SUP]But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. [SUP]30[/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

47-48....Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full , they drew to shore, and sat down , and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
 
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If non-belief is a belief and that's what you're stating, then how are you being any more combative or antagonistic than someone who believes that Jesus was unquestionably the son of God? Why can't you be open to the idea that Christianity started as a small cult not so different from the cults of today, and then was adopted by the Roman Empire in an attempt to stop the infighting caused by polytheism and slow their decline, and didn't just succeed because it's inherently 'true'? If that's what I believe, then why are you judging me for it, suggesting I'm 'flaming' or 'trolling'? It was an answer to the question proposed by this thread-- it's on-topic, and I think it's a pretty valid theory.

It's not really a question of Christians being willfully antagonistic so much as the fact that all belief systems are NOT as compatible as 'they're all part of the same truth', especially now that people are free to believe whatever it is they want to believe and a growing number are recognizing Christianity as no more valid than atheism, except in that it is held as a (waning) component of our nationalistic identity.

For some people there is no truth, or truth can only be described in terms of what it is not-- in which case, it is not that Jesus was the son of God, it is not that there even is a God, and not that you really need to worry about doing/being anything or behaving in any particular way... there is no 'movement' from this place to another place, there is no judgment, no accountability, no 'plan', no angels, no demons, no heaven, no hell, no Adam, no Eve, no apple, no sin... if that is my belief, then can you accept that without judging me or getting defensive?

It seems like a lot of the more 'open-minded' Christians actually seem to hold the belief that 'you actually ARE Christian, you just don't know it yet, and we really hope for your own sake that you confront this fact soon and fall in line with what we believe'...the whole 'his truth is written on your heart' thing, for example. I think that that is what so many non-Christians find so offensive-- the idea that everyone and everything falls in line with a specific set of beliefs which also seem to depend heavily on the idea of morality being natural, spiritual accountability, conformity and exclusivity.

The popular image of a Christian is self-righteous, judgmental, conservative and hateful... and while I don't think that this is altogether accurate in all cases, I do think that there are degrees of that in almost every Christian I've ever met.
 
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