Jesus said "No one can come to the Father except through me". Discuss.

Altruistic Muse said:
Inclusivists believe they will be judged by their reaction to the light they received. Salvation is God's business, I believe he wants everyone back. I'm inclusivist. Jesus died not jist to save us, bit to give the world the opportunity for salvation.
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I've never really understood why Jesus dying on the cross is such a big deal. They should have made it that he was crucified, then stretched on the rack a bit, then spent a few years in an Iron Maiden, injected with whatever the Biblical equivalent of AIDS was, followed by some Chinese Water Torture, matches under his fingernails and then being pulled apart by horses-- then I'd REALLY think 'oh wow this guy isn't HUMAN'.

I actually feel more sorry for those people who died and DIDN'T end up with a worldwide cult following… not that being crucified is in any way a fun time, but I think that knowing you were going to be a freakin LEGEND afterwards (and probably come back to life anyways) would do a lot to ease the pain. Actually, I feel more sorry for people with AIDS or cancer… I mean, that kind of thing is realllly drawn out… and with AIDS you get to look in the mirror every day for years and helplessly watch/feel the infection slowly killing you, well, before the meds came along anyway. Crucifixion is horrible but really, it's only a few days… horrible days but ultimately the end is in sight, and chances are you pass out before the really awful parts of it anyway.

So is it supposed to be that God himself experienced a human death and started feeling sorry for us so now we don't have to keep paying for the apple? Because if that's true, then not only is God not omnipotent in that he didn't even know how we worked (which isn't so Godlike when you really think about it), but he also didn't really suffer so much before he realized that dying kind of sucks, so he's actually kind of a wuss. There are plenty of more barbaric ways to die and a lot of them were actually really popular with Christians themselves… if he's so interested in getting people to be saved and to follow him, then maybe he should learn how to market himself a bit better.
 
Apone said:
I've never really understood why Jesus dying on the cross is such a big deal. They should have made it that he was crucified, then stretched on the rack a bit, then spent a few years in an Iron Maiden, injected with whatever the Biblical equivalent of AIDS was, followed by some Chinese Water Torture, matches under his fingernails and then being pulled apart by horses-- then I'd REALLY think 'oh wow this guy isn't HUMAN'.

I actually feel more sorry for those people who died and DIDN'T end up with a worldwide cult following… not that being crucified is in any way a fun time, but I think that knowing you were going to be a freakin LEGEND afterwards (and probably come back to life anyways) would do a lot to ease the pain. Actually, I feel more sorry for people with AIDS or cancer… I mean, that kind of thing is realllly drawn out… and with AIDS you get to look in the mirror every day for years and helplessly watch/feel the infection slowly killing you, well, before the meds came along anyway. Crucifixion is horrible but really, it's only a few days… horrible days but ultimately the end is in sight, and chances are you pass out before the really awful parts of it anyway.

So is it supposed to be that God himself experienced a human death and started feeling sorry for us so now we don't have to keep paying for the apple? Because if that's true, then not only is God not omnipotent in that he didn't even know how we worked (which isn't so Godlike when you really think about it), but he also didn't really suffer so much before he realized that dying kind of sucks, so he's actually kind of a wuss. There are plenty of more barbaric ways to die and a lot of them were actually really popular with Christians themselves… if he's so interested in getting people to be saved and to follow him, then maybe he should learn how to market himself a bit better.
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1. Being a first world individual whom has no real idea what suffering is, I don't think your really get to decide what kind of a deal dying on the cross was in terms of torture.

2. The death of Christ is part of his humanity, showing that he lived and died like a man does. His resurrection is the statement of his divinity.

3. I have a hard time understanding how any kind of knowledge can dull the pain of having nails driven through the major nerve centers of your body.

4. Your also missing the point of his death, it wasn't the God died and then said "this death thing sucks, I think I'll get rid of that." The point of Jesus' death is to remedy God's mercy with his justice. Because of God's sense of justice he has to punish sin, but god's sense of mercy wants him to forgive those who have sinned against him. So he finds a way to both put an end to sin and to bring mercy to man in one move, to take the punishment that is in place for man and his sin. The idea is akin to the death sentence being given to a convict, then at the last moment the Judge offers himself to take the sentence in place of the convict.
 
new testament
new covenant
testator
trinity
I am the way, the truth, and the light:
common Roman torture methods

notes for later
 
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Apone said:
You seem to know an awful lot about what God wants… which I should have expected, since it is sort of the common thread among a lot of Christians, in my experience. You're also presupposing the existence of 'God', who is male, and is most likely a large blue-eyed man with a flowing white beard who is looking down over all of his children from Heaven, a realm made of fluffy white clouds full of demure angels flying around with harps in their hands. How does believing in/following any of that stuff make you less ignorant than me? And if the religion itself isn't important, then why do you even identify yourself as a Christian?
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i dont know if you follow patterns well, but if you read the Bible, you should have a pretty good idea of what God wants. Not to mention his law is written in your heart. Even that, you say what Jesus said isnt so profound, but how you act makes it seem pretty revolutionary from your perspective-- love. though, youve made a step in the right direction by wanting to understand that, and i will further your understanding if you keep an open mind. that is the key-- not empirical evidence, but rather an open mind, and not making a judgement either way.
 
If you want a description of what God looks like Apone you could go with this one. Though I'm fairly sure it's meant to be metaphorical.

[SUP]13[/SUP]And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. [SUP]14[/SUP]His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[SUP]15[/SUP]And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
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The Doctor said:
1. Being a first world individual whom has no real idea what suffering is, I don't think your really get to decide what kind of a deal dying on the cross was in terms of torture.
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That doesn't even make sense. The whole 'first world individual' putdown only really applies to people who are whining about their own problems when they're really not such a big deal. I don't think you need to have lived a life full of suffering to know that lots of people have had to endure a lot of torture over the years and that some of them are probably worse than being crucified… such as being crucified upside down. I don't know what it's like to be crucified but it's not like it's hard to imagine worse things happening to someone.

The Doctor said:
2. The death of Christ is part of his humanity, showing that he lived and died like a man does. His resurrection is the statement of his divinity.
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OK.

The Doctor said:
3. I have a hard time understanding how any kind of knowledge can dull the pain of having nails driven through the major nerve centers of your body.
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Sort of like when the doctor says 'this may sting a little' or 'this will only last a second'-- knowing there's an end in sight helps you to deal with the pain. I also think that the person who believes that they have heaven and resurrection and eternal fame and popularity waiting for them is more likely to feel less pain than someone who has nothing, knows this is the end, and that it is basically meaningless… which is sort of the whole point of being religious in the first place.

The Doctor said:
4. Your also missing the point of his death, it wasn't the God died and then said "this death thing sucks, I think I'll get rid of that." The point of Jesus' death is to remedy God's mercy with his justice. Because of God's sense of justice he has to punish sin, but god's sense of mercy wants him to forgive those who have sinned against him. So he finds a way to both put an end to sin and to bring mercy to man in one move, to take the punishment that is in place for man and his sin. The idea is akin to the death sentence being given to a convict, then at the last moment the Judge offers himself to take the sentence in place of the convict.
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I've never heard that before… it's actually kind of interesting. I don't believe any of it, but it's interesting…
 
Apone said:
That doesn't even make sense. The whole 'first world individual' putdown only really applies to people who are whining about their own problems when they're really not such a big deal. I don't think you need to have lived a life full of suffering to know that lots of people have had to endure a lot of torture over the years and that some of them are probably worse than being crucified
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Matt3737 said:
It's absolutely important. It's a necessary experience that you either know or do not know about. Physical pain is not the only element of suffering. Have you ever experienced pure, unadulterated terror? If not, then how can you qualify it? How can someone who has explain it to you?
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Because I think it's just a general rule of the planet Earth that more of a bad thing is always worse than less of a bad thing, but I suppose that it also depends on how tough you are.
 
Sending someone to hell because they didn't believe in you only because they'd never heard of you? That's like sending someone to prison for not understanding English.

Don't worry, I'm not calling Jesus a dick. He's not. Well, the character isn't. I don't believe in Jesus as a prophet/holy dude of any sort.
 
PrincessFirefighter said:
Sending someone to hell because they didn't believe in you only because they'd never heard of you? That's like sending someone to prison for not understanding English.

Don't worry, I'm not calling Jesus a dick. He's not. Well, the character isn't. I don't believe in Jesus as a prophet/holy dude of any sort.
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Right ok, let's change your perspective. Your assuming that God sends people to hell, that he is making the active choice to send an individual to hell and you only have one way around that.

What if the natural state of man is that when he dies, he goes to hell. Instead of having God sending them there he's offering them a way out, an way to better life.

That's not the best or most in-depth explanation, but it makes the point
 
The Doctor said:
That's not the best or most in-depth explanation, but it makes the point
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Yeah except that you want people to buy into this hocus pocus just like every other religion based on an "open mind" I think what you are asking people to do when you tell them not to question and look for evidence is close their mind. THe natural state of death is "WE DONT KNOW" period. You are filling in blanks with stories that have been passed onto you by people who in their fervor still didn't know, you dont know you cant say you do, and just because you have faith in your ignorance doesn't mean the point or opinion is valid in any form, at least no more valid than the spagetti monster or that Santa is real, can you at least agree to that?
 
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Billy said:
Yeah except that you want people to buy into this hocus pocus just like every other religion based on an "open mind" I think what you are asking people to do when you tell them not to question and look for evidence is close their mind. THe natural state of death is "WE DONT KNOW" period. You are filling in blanks with stories that have been passed onto you by people who in their fervor still didn't know, you dont know you cant say you do, and just because you have faith in your ignorance doesn't mean the point or opinion is valid in any form, at least no more valid than the spagetti monster or that Santa is real, can you at least agree to that?
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I'm not here to play apologist with you billy, there are people whom have made there careers out of that. Why don't you go find one of them. In fact I can even point you to a few.

William Lane Craig, Craig Blomberg to name a few of the more distinguished. Also I'm not telling people to close their minds and stop looking for answers, and if you can find where I said such a thing I'll happily modify the statement to make it more truthful.

The only thing I'm doing here is trying to correct people understanding of Christian theology. Seeing as most of the arguments on the forum based around Christianity come from misunderstandings and not outright disagreements it seems like the prudent thing to do.
 
Billy said:
Yeah except that you want people to buy into this hocus pocus just like every other religion based on an "open mind" I think what you are asking people to do when you tell them not to question and look for evidence is close their mind. THe natural state of death is "WE DONT KNOW" period. You are filling in blanks with stories that have been passed onto you by people who in their fervor still didn't know, you dont know you cant say you do, and just because you have faith in your ignorance doesn't mean the point or opinion is valid in any form, at least no more valid than the spagetti monster or that Santa is real, can you at least agree to that?
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Ignorance regarding life after death and the belief in God are not mutually exclusive premises.

You also assume that [MENTION=1848]The Doctor[/MENTION] is attempting to 'sell' his beliefs rather than clarify incorrect assumptions posed about his beliefs. It is rude to question someone else regarding their beliefs in order to dismiss and belittle rather than posing an actual inquiry for information. You do not have to accept said responses in order to better understand what they believe.
 
The Doctor said:
Right ok, let's change your perspective. Your assuming that God sends people to hell, that he is making the active choice to send an individual to hell and you only have one way around that.

What if the natural state of man is that when he dies, he goes to hell. Instead of having God sending them there he's offering them a way out, an way to better life.

That's not the best or most in-depth explanation, but it makes the point
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Sure, that makes a point, but that doesn't make it fair. Or just. You're arguing that if a person never HEARS about the religion, such as an indigenous person, that they deserve to burn in hell. This is precisely why I reject the Christian god, among all gods - because it's malicious stuff like this that makes me lose respect for him. "You've never heard of me through no fault of your own! YOU SHALL BURN!"

*shrugs* Makes no sense. Besides, hell doesn't exist anyway.
 
PrincessFirefighter said:
Sure, that makes a point, but that doesn't make it fair. Or just. You're arguing that if a person never HEARS about the religion, such as an indigenous person, that they deserve to burn in hell. This is precisely why I reject the Christian god, among all gods - because it's malicious stuff like this that makes me lose respect for him. "You've never heard of me through no fault of your own! YOU SHALL BURN!"

*shrugs* Makes no sense. Besides, hell doesn't exist anyway.
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Your also making a mistake on what hell is like, but then again your obviously not interested in learning. You just want to make your opinion on the subject known, which is fine, this is a forum after all.

Edit: maybe I'm a little upset and that coming through in my previous comment. If you do indeed wish to learn about the biblical state of man and why Hell exist and more prominently what Hell is and why man goes there, then let's go through a bit of biblical history to try and give a better view of the story.

Edit again: I just spent the past half hour typing a post on Sin, Hell, Heaven and God and it just got kicked. I give up.
 
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The Doctor said:
I'm not here to play apologist with you billy, there are people whom have made there careers out of that. Why don't you go find one of them. In fact I can even point you to a few.

William Lane Craig, Craig Blomberg to name a few of the more distinguished. Also I'm not telling people to close their minds and stop looking for answers, and if you can find where I said such a thing I'll happily modify the statement to make it more truthful.

The only thing I'm doing here is trying to correct people understanding of Christian theology. Seeing as most of the arguments on the forum based around Christianity come from misunderstandings and not outright disagreements it seems like the prudent thing to do.
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So that's a no then. You cannot agree that other other beliefs are as valid as yours.
 
Billy said:
So that's a no then. You cannot agree that other other beliefs are as valid as yours.
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Cannot seems a little strong, other people seems overly exclusive. How about I about I say that I do not find other non-christians beliefs as valid as my own. But then again if I didn't believe in them they wouldn't be my beliefs.
 
The Doctor said:
Cannot seems a little strong, other people seems overly exclusive. How about I about I say that I do not find other non-christians beliefs as valid as my own. But then again if I didn't believe in them they wouldn't be my beliefs.
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But that's kind of lazy. Why are your beliefs more valid than other beliefs? Because they are yours? What system do you use internally to verify that your beliefs are more correct?
 
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