Jesus said "No one can come to the Father except through me". Discuss.

To discern is to judge.

It is not about being open-minded.
To discern one thing is not to judge all.

God is personal, not from the bible, but from birth you know of God. the Bible just gives a label and a recipe for understanding (their perspective) of God better. but ultimately, the understanding will be from you (and you are of God.)
 
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What do you think the implications are of being an atheist?
Please don't say moral relativity. Or Hell.
I feel I've given quite a bit of thought on the implications of my beliefs.

I think there are many implications about an atheist world view that atheists don't really consider. In truth, it depends on what kind of atheist you're talking about - A spiritual atheist like a Buddhist or animist? One who believes in magic without gods? One who considers science the supreme authority, and the physical as the only thing that exists?

Atheism itself is nearly impossible to define - it's a lack of belief in a God, gods, or deities - but those can all be vastly different concepts, so figuring out what exactly atheism is rejecting is nearly impossible. The popularly stated:
 
I spent two years of my life studying religious history and reading multiple religious texts. I also went to churches, synagogues, mosques and meditation temples. I read the Koran, the Bible, the sayings of Confucius, the Tao Te Ching, and parts of the Torah and the Avesta. I talked with pastors, rabbis, and a imam. I visited the Vatican, I volunteered a summer working at a church camp, and I taped every discovery channel special on the histories of religion that I possible could. I read opinion articles and religious newspapers. I went to a cathedral and tried praying.

If the problem here is my ignorance, or me not wanting to learn, then I don't think we have a problem.

You know my first thoughts when reading your post when reading this was the obligatory internet skepticism that comes with anybody talking themselves up on the internet. But maybe you are sincere, maybe you really do understand this issue and I'm being a complete and total ass. If what your saying is true and you have firm grasp of Christian Theology and biblical history, Then please explain to me and every one else on the forum Why Hell exists.
 
I don't know if Jesus actually said this or not. I can't figure out what it is exactly supposed to mean. But I can tell you one thing for absolute certain: I know, love and serve G-d, and G-d loves me too, and that's really all that matters.

"When every thing to be said has been said has has been said, this one thing remains:
Fear G-d and obey His commandments
For this is the whole of man."
Ecclesiastes 12:13

"Beloved, let us loved one another, for love is of God, and everyone that loves is born of G-d and knows G-d. He that loves not, knows not G-d, for G-d is love."
I John 4:7-8
 
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You know my first thoughts when reading your post when reading this was the obligatory internet skepticism that comes with anybody talking themselves up on the internet. But maybe you are sincere, maybe you really do understand this issue and I'm being a complete and total ass. If what your saying is true and you have firm grasp of Christian Theology and biblical history, Then please explain to me and every one else on the forum Why Hell exists.

Well, what sort of answer are you looking for? Are you looking for an answer based on the Bible, or based on the majority of Christians' beliefs? Are you wanting me to use my knowledge of Biblical stories or my knowledge of modern theology?

I'll just do both.

Between 58-60% of Christians believe in hell. An overwhelming majority believes in heaven. Vatican officials, even as high as the pope, have been quoted saying that they now recognize that there is no hell.

Hell is eternal punishment. It is the place where "the fire is not quenched" as said in Matthew. Because there is a heaven (which was created first) for the good, pure and faithful, its counterpart must be embodied in a place of eternal damnation (which was created later). Then the fall of Lucifer, an angel whose sin destroyed the world he was given power over, gave God reasons to create a place for the wicked and backwards. Upon meeting judgement, those who have not lived a life of faith and morality with be cast under God's left hand and sent to hell. "Depart from me, ye cursed, and prepare for the Devil and his Angels." Can't give you a passage on that one without looking it up, sorry. I never bother to memorize citations, though I do know Leviticus rather well. God, being perfect, cannot judge anything but perfect justice (Job), and those who are not just must have a place to go. God exists because it is the perfect form of justice for unlawful deeds.And of course, Jesus gives his shtick about the weeping and gnashing teeth to warn and instill fear.

Is that what you were looking for? I don't get the point of this, frankly. It still doesn't answer my question as to why an innocent soul would go to hell simply because that person has never heard of Christianity through no fault of their own.
 
Well, what sort of answer are you looking for? Are you looking for an answer based on the Bible, or based on the majority of Christians' beliefs? Are you wanting me to use my knowledge of Biblical stories or my knowledge of modern theology?

I'll just do both.

Between 58-60% of Christians believe in hell. An overwhelming majority believes in heaven. Vatican officials, even as high as the pope, have been quoted saying that they now recognize that there is no hell.

Hell is eternal punishment. It is the place where "the fire is not quenched" as said in Matthew. Because there is a heaven (which was created first) for the good, pure and faithful, its counterpart must be embodied in a place of eternal damnation (which was created later). Then the fall of Lucifer, an angel whose sin destroyed the world he was given power over, gave God reasons to create a place for the wicked and backwards. Upon meeting judgement, those who have not lived a life of faith and morality with be cast under God's left hand and sent to hell. "Depart from me, ye cursed, and prepare for the Devil and his Angels." Can't give you a passage on that one without looking it up, sorry. I never bother to memorize citations, though I do know Leviticus rather well. God, being perfect, cannot judge anything but perfect justice (Job), and those who are not just must have a place to go. God exists because it is the perfect form of justice for unlawful deeds.And of course, Jesus gives his shtick about the weeping and gnashing teeth to warn and instill fear.

Is that what you were looking for? I don't get the point of this, frankly. It still doesn't answer my question as to why an innocent soul would go to hell simply because that person has never heard of Christianity through no fault of their own.

I'd like you to use your knowledge of the Bible, seeing as the answer is in it.

edit: book, chapter, verse references please
 
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Ad hominem when rejecting Jesus's ideas simply because he was Jesus and "Christianity is wrong, and stupid." I think lots of people feel threatened at his ideas, which is the exact opposite of what he was intending.
 
But let me assume that we have, what I feel, is a typical Western Atheist. This person accepts science as the ultimate authority on proving reality - what is real and what is not - and can either see science as a way to reason morality and rationalize beneficial outcomes that are good (thus, no moral relativity), or maybe they even think that morality is learned, progressive, and ultimately better for the human race - and that just because you don't have an external moral authority, doesn't mean you can't have consistent morality

Yet science is based on observation; something based in our physical senses. Our physical senses themselves are quite limited - as science has shown. Forgive me for quoting fiction, but I believe this monologue from Battlestar Galactica conveys my point:

“I saw a star explode, and send out the building blocks of the Universe. Other stars, other planets and eventually, other life. A supernova – Creation itself! I was there. I wanted to see it and be part of the moment. And you know how I perceived one of the most glorious events in the universe? With these ridiculous, gelatinous orbs in my skull! With eyes designed to perceive only a tiny fraction of the EM spectrum. With ears designed only to hear vibrations in the air. I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear X-rays. I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can't even express these things properly because I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language! But I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws. And feel the wind of a supernova flowing over me! I'm a machine, and I can know much more. I can experience so much more. But I'm trapped in this absurd body!"
—Brother Cavil in Battlestar Galactica

We don't even perceive our full reality. And now that we recognize the reality of other dimensions - we don't even know if we fully interact with all that actually physically exists. We're limited to four dimensions - and even then, things like neutrinos and dark matter are imperceptible to us. Already we're faced with the fact that science cannot, and will never be able to give us a full picture of reality - our existence is too limited to interact with or conceive of all that could exist. And of the limited reality we find our existence in, we can't even perceive it fully, as BSG so eloquently pointed out. So to say that physical existence is all that exists, and that science is the only thing you'll accept... that's just not reality.
Wow. Was that whole spiel really necessary? Athiesm isn't very difficult to define. It's just the rejection of the existence of divinity. A theist. No god.
I actually consider myself an agnostic. I haven't made up my mind completely, but based on what I am able to observe and reason, it makes more sense to not believe in God.
You can say that I don't accept reality because I require evidence... but I think that those who believe in god don't accept reality because they rely on faith and things that are impossible to verify.

Yet, you could say that we evolved to think, and those who could think in a way that was truly reflective of reality survived longer and procreated more. Yet evolution through natural selection is not based in truth - it's based on what aids survival. If your species' only enemy was a giant bouncing cube that crushed you, and the only way to survive was to run from it - would it matter if you perceived that it was a ball or a box or a pyramid? The only piece of reality you need to know is the ability to identify the threatening object, because those who can do that are those of you who survive. How else you perceive the world through your senses, and how you mind pieces reality together is ultimately immaterial and none of natural-selection's concern until it effects your population. You just have to understand when to run.
Those who are able to think ahead and plan and reason were better prepared to survive.
That's intelligence. Intelligence contributed to our survival as a species. We don't live like animals (as you are describing the way animals are observed surviving) because we are capable of higher thought through evolution. Who knows--maybe some day other creatures will evolve to possess the ability. /Crackpot.

Maybe being reflective and searching for abstract truths is a consequence of our species being successful--we have the time to use our minds this way.

Maybe in these times, being able to think and reason and question spiritual things helps one survive by not joining a cult and drinking the kool-aid ;-P
(I'm being kind of serious there.)


"Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God." - C.S. Lewis
That doesn't jive with me. So basically, you need god to trust your own thoughts and know anything? Maybe I'm not understanding this right, because it just sounds so absurd to me: Humans are incapable of thought and rationality without god--therefore there is a god. It sounds like quite a jump--There's a god because you are thinking, so there. I'll come back to this later.
 
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I'd like you to use your knowledge of the Bible, seeing as the answer is in it.

edit: book, chapter, verse references please

I'm not going to take time out of my day to prove something to you. (I can just see it now, you're jumping for joy claiming, "It's true! She knows nothing!") Tell me, Doctor (which I love by the way, though I was a bigger fan of David Tennant), which portrays my knowledge more?:

1) Me giving you a correct answer off the top of my head, as I just did, or
2) Looking up the answer in the Bible and giving you the reason as I read it, which any ignoramus could do in five minutes.

How about you tell me if my answer, which came from memory, was correct? Wouldn't THAT be the better way to prove my knowledge of the Bible? If you're trying to make a point, that's a FAR more logical way to do it.

I just demonstrated my knowledge of the Bible in a better way than what you're looking for. I've had four hours of class today ran straight to dance, where I just finished 1.5 hours of ballet. I now run 25 miles north to take yet another ballet class for 1.5 hours and rush home to finish a six page essay, of which I have two pages done and is due tomorrow. If you think that proving my intelligence to you is my main priority, you're sadly mistaken.

So you have a choice now; you can either choose to be a cynic and just assume that everything I said about my religious search was bullshit, or you can believe the truth as I told it to you.

Oh, or I suppose you could contact everyone I know and ask them. Just let me know if you'd like some email addresses.

As for me, perhaps if I have some time on Wednesday, I'll take the time to get you the passages. After all, I do so love reading the Bible. It's one of my favorite works of fiction, though I find the Koran far more beautifully written and more satisfying.

Look, if you're a Christian, I'm not trying to offend you. I asked a simple question that, for some reason unbeknownst to me, inspired you to call me an ignorant liar. *shrugs* I don't get you.
 
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I am reminded of Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. I am reminded of Job.
 
I'm not here to play apologist with you billy...

The only thing I'm doing here is trying to correct people understanding of Christian theology.

Not to be a butt, but what is the difference?
 
Wow. Was that whole spiel really necessary? Athiesm isn't very difficult to define. It's just the rejection of the existence of divinity. A theist. No god.
I actually consider myself an agnostic leaning athiest. I haven't made up my mind completely, but based on what I am able to observe and reason, it makes more sense to not believe in God. I accept scientific discovery, repeatable, predictable, observable, phenomenon. You can say that I don't accept reality because I require evidence... but I think that those who believe in god don't accept reality because they rely on faith and things that are impossible to verify.

You reject the existence of "divinity" - so what does divinity even mean? God? Ok, so define what God is. Is that all that's "divine" throughout theism? What makes something "divine" throughout theism? Is there any single definition of the "divine" in theism that "atheism" itself is rejecting? Is there a definition that you accept? You may feel there is no immortal, physical/ethereal bearded man in the sky who created everything and magically peers into the future and magically wields power over all nature -but is that theism or caricature?

Those who are able to think ahead and plan and reason were better prepared to survive.
That's intelligence. Intelligence contributed to our survival as a species. We don't live like animals (as you are describing the way animals are observed surviving) because we are capable of higher thought through evolution. Who knows--maybe some day other creatures will evolve to possess the ability. /Crackpot.

Maybe being reflective and searching for abstract truths is a consequence of our species being successful--we have the time to use our minds this way.

In these times, being able to think and reason and question spiritual things helps one survive by not joining a cult and drinking the kool-aid ;-P
(I'm being kind of serious there.)


That doesn't jive with me. So basically, you need god to trust your own thoughts and know anything? Maybe I'm not understanding this right, because it just sounds so absurd to me: Humans are incapable of thought and rationality without god--therefore there is a god. It sounds like quite a jump--There's a god because you are thinking, so there.


Anyway. Really interesting post.

You are absolutely right, we do have much higher thinking than animals - yet undeniably at some point in our evolutionary history, an ancestral species of ours did have to survive without higher thinking. Never-the-less, what I meant to be demonstrating was that evolution doesn't care if we perceive truth, or conceptualize truth. Merely perceptions and conceptualizations which aid survival are favored, which should be consistent, but not necessarily true. Even if we are perceiving and conceiving reality accurately, we know we do not do either completely, and thus not fully truthfully.

The following is my explanation of C.S. Lewis's quote, whose argument is explored more in-depth in his apologetic book "Miracles."

What C.S. Lewis points out in that quote is that in order to trust our thoughts and perceptions of reality to be true, we have to accept that there is such a thing as a "true self" to experience them, and then an "objective truth" in our reality. But because the laws of our reality are based on interaction, and not rationality, if our thoughts are merely products of the physical processes we observe in our "true reality," then they are not based in rationality, but interaction. Thus, what you believe is determined by nature, not your own "convictions" - not the logic of another's argument, but the varying chemical electric reactions of the brain. So not only do we have to accept that there is an objectively true reality, but that our minds are in someway beyond the reality they observe and understand. This implies we are not simply physical, but something more. Lewis defines this 'awareness that is beyond physical nature' as the spiritual. But just because your thoughts are not influenced solely by movements of nature, does not mean you're perceiving the true and objective reality "accurately." This goes back to the evolution argument before, and how do we know we even perceive reality truthfully?

So you must not only recognize the physical reality has an objective and truthful nature, and that to ever understand that true nature, your own thoughts cannot be solely based in the physical reality, and thus reside in a "non-physical" or "spiritual" true self - but that the perceptions you have must accurately observe and relay this true reality to the spiritual self. Lewis compared this happening in nature to "upsetting a milk jug and getting a map of London." He infers from this that in our physical reality, Rationality cannot come from Irrationality anymore than Something cannot come from Nothing. Thus, our perceptions and thoughts, in being rational, came from a rational thing (as we know we have not always existed), who in being rational cannot Himself be of the irrational yet interactive based physical reality (thus He is of the "Spiritual") - and Lewis identifies that rational thing that imparted rationality to us as God.

Therefore, Lewis finally concludes that because you need "God" to think, you cannot use thought to disprove God, because the very act of rational thinking proves a reality beyond the observably physical, and cannot come from the irrational nor itself - thus another rational being, ultimately termed as "God."

EDIT: I may not have done his argument justice though, as this is my summation and understanding of it. If you wish to hear his argument (which takes chapters) and understand the position better, then I recommend you read "Miracles." Lewis, as a former Atheist himself, often explores what it means to be an atheist, and its implications.
 
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I'm not going to take time out of my day to prove something to you. (I can just see it now, you're jumping for joy claiming, "It's true! She knows nothing!") Tell me, Doctor (which I love by the way, though I was a bigger fan of David Tennant), which portrays my knowledge more?:

1) Me giving you a correct answer off the top of my head, as I just did, or
2) Looking up the answer in the Bible and giving you the reason as I read it, which any ignoramus could do in five minutes.

How about you tell me if my answer, which came from memory, was correct? Wouldn't THAT be the better way to prove my knowledge of the Bible? If you're trying to make a point, that's a FAR more logical way to do it.

I just demonstrated my knowledge of the Bible in a better way than what you're looking for. I've had four hours of class today ran straight to dance, where I just finished 1.5 hours of ballet. I now run 25 miles north to take yet another ballet class for 1.5 hours and rush home to finish a six page essay, of which I have two pages done and is due tomorrow. If you think that proving my intelligence to you is my main priority, you're sadly mistaken.

So you have a choice now; you can either choose to be a cynic and just assume that everything I said about my religious search was bullshit, or you can believe the truth as I told it to you.

Oh, or I suppose you could contact everyone I know and ask them. Just let me know if you'd like some email addresses.

As for me, perhaps if I have some time on Wednesday, I'll take the time to get you the passages. After all, I do so love reading the Bible. It's one of my favorite works of fiction, though I find the Koran far more beautifully written and more satisfying.

Look, if you're a Christian, I'm not trying to offend you. I asked a simple question that, for some reason unbeknownst to me, inspired you to call me an ignorant liar. *shrugs* I don't get you.

-side note, I loved Tennant, I'm thoroughly enjoying Smith, but Ecclestion will always be my favorite.



See here is the thing, you stated that you knew a great deal about the Bible and Christian theology, but all you really told me are some statistics you pulled up off the top of your head and mentioning a quote from the Pope(which from a quick Google search, the best I can find is that, No the Pope has not claimed hell isn't real). And while there is something to be said when mentioning statistics and authoritative figures in theology it doesn't actually mean anything. Because is 60% of christians say Hell doesn't exist they can be wrong, and if the Pope state that Jesus is a dinosaur then he too is obviously wrong.

I asked you to find the information out of the Bible because it is the end all be all of Christian doctrine, not the pope and not other Christians.

But more importantly, you didn't actually answer the question, you told me what Hell is, not why it exist.

More important then even that is a very simple fact, that if you can answer this question correctly, you'll have the answer to your first one.



Edit: [MENTION=731]uberrogo[/MENTION] , Apologist seek to prove the existence of God to non-Christians. It's a specific field of study and practice. You won't find an apologist debating the necessity of baptism or the properties of communion.
 
-side note, I loved Tennant, I'm thoroughly enjoying Smith, but Ecclestion will always be my favorite.



See here is the thing, you stated that you knew a great deal about the Bible and Christian theology, but all you really told me are some statistics you pulled up off the top of your head and mentioning a quote from the Pope(which from a quick Google search, the best I can find is that, No the Pope has not claimed hell isn't real). And while there is something to be said when mentioning statistics and authoritative figures in theology it doesn't actually mean anything. Because is 60% of christians say Hell doesn't exist they can be wrong, and if the Pope state that Jesus is a dinosaur then he too is obviously wrong.

I asked you to find the information out of the Bible because it is the end all be all of Christian doctrine, not the pope and not other Christians.

But more importantly, you didn't actually answer the question, you told me what Hell is, not why it exist.

More important then even that is a very simple fact, that if you can answer this question correctly, you'll have the answer to your first one.

You're acting as if ALL I gave you was statistics. I said, "God, being perfect, cannot judge anything but perfect justice (Job), and those who are not just must have a place to go." Hell exists because it embodies the opposite of perfection that is God, yet it is the perfect punishment for all the wicked, for God cannot create that which is not perfect.

I did give you a reason. But in giving a reason for Hell's existence, one must describe Hell.

"that if you can answer this question correctly, you'll have the answer to your first one." Can you specify what you mean by this? Are you saying that if I know why hell exists, I'll know why an innocent, just person is sent to hell simply for not knowing?

Do you always search for opportunities to be condescending to others? Or am I just a lucky one because I dare disagree with the Bible?

By the way, just because the reason for hell's existence is in the Bible, does not make it real. It may make it real to you, which is fantastic, but when you start to treat those who believe differently than you like you're treating me, I lose a ton of respect. At least I took the time to learn your religion through experience and text - be respectful of that, if you please.
 
You're acting as if ALL I gave you was statistics. I said, "God, being perfect, cannot judge anything but perfect justice (Job), and those who are not just must have a place to go." Hell exists because it embodies the opposite of perfection that is God, yet it is the perfect punishment for all the wicked, for God cannot create that which is not perfect.

I did give you a reason. But in giving a reason for Hell's existence, one must describe Hell.

"that if you can answer this question correctly, you'll have the answer to your first one." Can you specify what you mean by this? Are you saying that if I know why hell exists, I'll know why an innocent, just person is sent to hell simply for not knowing?

Do you always search for opportunities to be condescending to others? Or am I just a lucky one because I dare disagree with the Bible?

By the way, just because the reason for hell's existence is in the Bible, does not make it real. It may make it real to you, which is fantastic, but when you start to treat those who believe differently than you like you're treating me, I lose a ton of respect. At least I took the time to learn your religion through experience and text - be respectful of that, if you please.

First off, we weren't debating Hell's existence. It was fairly easy to figure out that since you'er not a christian you don't believe in Hell's existence, and you know what? It doesn't matter to me.

You started this conversation trying to figure out why god sends innocent people to Hell. The question is comes from a flawed understanding of Hell, I'm trying to get you to study what Hell is from the Bible so you can realize that God doesn't send innocent and just people to Hell because they don't exist.
 
First off, we weren't debating Hell's existence. It was fairly easy to figure out that since you'er not a christian you don't believe in Hell's existence, and you know what? It doesn't matter to me.

You started this conversation trying to figure out why god sends innocent people to Hell. The question is comes from a flawed understanding of Hell, I'm trying to get you to study what Hell is from the Bible so you can realize that God doesn't send innocent and just people to Hell because they don't exist.

"because they don't exist." Because who doesn't exist? Innocent people?

Okay, starting over.

Missionaries. Their job is to spread the word of God, because recognizing Jesus as your savior and so on and so forth, gets you into heaven. Yes? Yes. Okay. So now we have an aboriginal tribe who has never been reached by missionaries. By no fault of their own, they have never heard of God, Jesus, or Christianity. Let's say the chief dies. He was a good man. He was moral, he cared for his tribe and his family. He was just. He was loved. Simply because of the fact that he has never heard of Christianity, the Christian God sends him to hell. Though it's not his fault. Though there may not be such thing as an innocent person, they were innocent and good by their own standards, and you'd think an "all-loving" God would understand that. But apparently he does not.

That, my friends, is a dick move. And precisely why I always found God the greatest antagonist in literature.
 
"because they don't exist." Because who doesn't exist? Innocent people?

Okay, starting over.

Missionaries. Their job is to spread the word of God, because recognizing Jesus as your savior and so on and so forth, gets you into heaven. Yes? Yes. Okay. So now we have an aboriginal tribe who has never been reached by missionaries. By no fault of their own, they have never heard of God, Jesus, or Christianity. Let's say the chief dies. He was a good man. He was moral, he cared for his tribe and his family. He was just. He was loved. Simply because of the fact that he has never heard of Christianity, the Christian God sends him to hell. Though it's not his fault. Though there may not be such thing as an innocent person, they were innocent and good by their own standards, and you'd think an "all-loving" God would understand that. But apparently he does not.

That, my friends, is a dick move. And precisely why I always found God the greatest antagonist in literature.

was said chief perfect?
 
-side note, I loved Tennant, I'm thoroughly enjoying Smith, but Ecclestion will always be my favorite.



See here is the thing, you stated that you knew a great deal about the Bible and Christian theology, but all you really told me are some statistics you pulled up off the top of your head and mentioning a quote from the Pope(which from a quick Google search, the best I can find is that, No the Pope has not claimed hell isn't real). And while there is something to be said when mentioning statistics and authoritative figures in theology it doesn't actually mean anything. Because is 60% of christians say Hell doesn't exist they can be wrong, and if the Pope state that Jesus is a dinosaur then he too is obviously wrong.

I asked you to find the information out of the Bible because it is the end all be all of Christian doctrine, not the pope and not other Christians.

But more importantly, you didn't actually answer the question, you told me what Hell is, not why it exist.

More important then even that is a very simple fact, that if you can answer this question correctly, you'll have the answer to your first one.



Edit: @uberrogo , Apologist seek to prove the existence of God to non-Christians. It's a specific field of study and practice. You won't find an apologist debating the necessity of baptism or the properties of communion.

You keep referencing "the bible" do you mean the King James Bible? Because the "bible" is just a bunch of rhetoric put together by the rulers of Rome, they included and excluded things based on criteria like "does this benefit the church and protect its assets". The Bible is but a shallow slice of what Christianity is and has been. I really dont think putting faith in said document is really a smart investment personally but I do respect that people choose to do this.
 
You keep referencing "the bible" do you mean the King James Bible? Because the "bible" is just a bunch of rhetoric put together by the rulers of Rome, they included and excluded things based on criteria like "does this benefit the church and protect its assets". The Bible is but a shallow slice of what Christianity is and has been. I really dont think putting faith in said document is really a smart investment personally but I do respect that people choose to do this.

When I mention the Bible, I'm referencing the collective sixty six different documents that Christians regard as God breathed holy scripture. Coming up short of the having the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts, the New American Standard version is regarded by scholars as the best translation for academic study. However, most recent translations will work fine. I would advise against using the King James for the same reason as I would advise against a non or light Spanish speaking individual to to read a Hispanic Bible, you'll miss alot of nuances of the text trying to figure out a language you don't entirely understand.
 
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