Jordan Peterson

[Anemoia]

Because European Christians fight wars from the 11th century to the modern period where they don't have a problem with selling all of their possessions and living like Jesus and the Early Apostles. Coveting material wealth and being materialistic is something normal to Indo-European cultures and European Christians are pretty materialistic where wealth is something repudiated in the in the Bible. Even European Protestant Christians in particular Calvinist ascribe a solid work ethic and material wealth as sign of God's election. European Christians invent Alchemy and Natural Science and there are several campaigns by Christians like witch trials, the inquisition, and reformation to act as backlashes and repressions of Pagan beliefs and tradition reemerging. Harry Potter, Star Wars, Marvel Movies, Lord of The Rings, Chucky, The Shining, Disney Movies, all feature heroes, creatures, themes, elements, principals that come from Pagan and Indo-European religion and mythology. Most of our most favorite and popular Holidays are Pagan in Origin that have been Christianized. More European people are becoming non-religious, because there is a pagan underneath that needs it's due, what is unconscious seeks to become conscious.


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I was expecting an answer about why Christianity doesn't touch on those levels of the 'cultural conscious' that you identified ('social-ego, cultural-shadow, historical unconscious, and collective unconscious'), but I don't think you've provided an answer to that.

I'm not sure where 'materialism' connects to this question, but you do cite a lot of phenomena as examples of 'paganism' re-emerging that are very strictly Christian in actuality. For example, inquisitions were established to repress Christian sects that threatened to overturn the Catholic church's monopoly on apostolic authority, rather than being anything to do at all with 'paganism'. Cathars, Waldensians, Albigenses, the 'good men' of Jacques Fournier's deposition records, and so on.

The examples you cite of pagan themes re-emerging in modern media are also interesting in that practically all of them are inseparable from Christian narratives of messianism (the 'chosen one') and contests between sharply defined forces of good and evil. Pre-Christian European pagan religions tended to have neither of these features; the gods were famously capricious and could do evil as well as good, while the heroes of those stories were rarely if ever messianic. I don't see what's so 'pagan' about those stories you've cited.

I'm not sure you're making a very good case here, as much as you are layering examples upon examples that are so numerous as to be difficult to deal with - a 'Gish gallop'. Do you have one example or phenomenon that you consider to be a particularly strong argument in favour of your position?

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

I was expecting an answer about why Christianity doesn't touch on those levels of the 'cultural conscious' that you identified ('social-ego, cultural-shadow, historical unconscious, and collective unconscious'), but I don't think you've provided an answer to that.

Oh, okay, the reason Christianity doesn't is because it's not endemic to the history of the evolution of European cultures and is fairly recent in the evolutionary time stamp not being a part of European cultural history until the last 2,000 years which is very recent given Indo-Europeans settled Europe around 3000 BCE.

m not sure where 'materialism' connects to this question, but you do cite a lot of phenomena as examples of 'paganism' re-emerging that are very strictly Christian in actuality. For example, inquisitions were established to repress Christian sects that threatened to overturn the Catholic church's monopoly on apostolic authority, rather than being anything to do at all with 'paganism'. Cathars, Waldensians, Albigenses, the 'good men' of Jacques Fournier's deposition records, and so on.

Well, there were different waves and fronts of the inquisition having different purposes within a particular region beginning around the 12th century in New World South and Central America and Old-World Europe. The inquisition was generally a punishment of Heresy but the Catholic church also tortured and persecuted Muslims, Jews, and Pagans. Also, the Roman inquisition even resulted in the trial of Galileo Galilei, so the inquisition was a social political measure to repress descension from Christian Orthodoxy whether you were a Christian heretic, suspected Atheist, Jew, Muslim, or Pagan.

The examples you cite of pagan themes re-emerging in modern media are also interesting in that practically all of them are inseparable from Christian narratives of messianism (the 'chosen one') and contests between sharply defined forces of good and evil. Pre-Christian European pagan religions tended to have neither of these features; the gods were famously capricious and could do evil as well as good, while the heroes of those stories were rarely if ever messianic. I don't see what's so 'pagan' about those stories you've cited.

What do you mean by messianic? Well, messianism to me is an iteration of the chosen one archetype which is fairly common across heroic mythologies and is present in the Iliad in the hero Achilles. Achilles in fact is the first chosen one or destined hero protagonist in western myth. Perseus is also a destined hero who was the son of a god, Zeus, and these figures can probably be linked back to Gilgamesh in world literary myth history. What's unique about Jesus is he isn't a warrior and suffers to save mankind rather than a specific culture or people group through martial victory or the defeat of some monster essentially not being part of the dragon/monster slayer myth cannon that is endemic to Indo-European cultures. Yes, but a universe in a moral struggle between good and evil comes from the Indo-Iranian religion of Zoroastrianism by way of the prophet Zoroaster or Zarathustra which was the first monotheism that went onto influence the ancient Hebrews who after being conquered by the Greeks and Hellenized gave rise to Christianity which was implanted in Europe about 2,000 years ago, so yes Paganism is devoid of such distinctions, but I didn't say Christianity isn't present in the western conscious; I said it's not as deep because its recent and not endemic, so that's not really a point against my claim. The heroes weren't messianic as in they weren't under a paradigm of strict contest between good and evil and they are not trying to save usually more than a people, culture, city, self, or group, but there are plenty of chosen ones. From this perspective, Jesus is just a different version of an archetype that is much older than Jesus. Well, how familiar are you with Paganism?

I'm not sure you're making a very good case here, as much as you are layering examples upon examples that are so numerous as to be difficult to deal with - a 'Gish gallop'. Do you have one example or phenomenon that you consider to be a particularly strong argument in favour of your position?

Well, I felt my initial response to @dragulagu was my strongest argument. Now, if what you're asking is an example for my argument about the western cultural psychology? I think the rise of the Nazis and Fascism are great examples given these events took place more recently within the modern period. Please be more specific in what kind of argument you're looking for or in what direction you want me to take this next.

Also, I fully acknowledge that anything we look at in contemporary culture is going to be influenced by Christianity, but this doesn't mean the forms arise from Christianity as expressed at least in the Bible like Elves are from the Norse Poetic Eddas and not the Bible, so even though Tolkien was a Catholic he writes Lord of the Rings a story about war with references to Arthurian legends and Norse Sagas like the Volsung Saga. Yet, I acknowledge that our morals and moral sense are most influenced by Christianity.

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

I was expecting an answer about why Christianity doesn't touch on those levels of the 'cultural conscious' that you identified ('social-ego, cultural-shadow, historical unconscious, and collective unconscious'), but I don't think you've provided an answer to that.

I'm not sure where 'materialism' connects to this question, but you do cite a lot of phenomena as examples of 'paganism' re-emerging that are very strictly Christian in actuality. For example, inquisitions were established to repress Christian sects that threatened to overturn the Catholic church's monopoly on apostolic authority, rather than being anything to do at all with 'paganism'. Cathars, Waldensians, Albigenses, the 'good men' of Jacques Fournier's deposition records, and so on.

The examples you cite of pagan themes re-emerging in modern media are also interesting in that practically all of them are inseparable from Christian narratives of messianism (the 'chosen one') and contests between sharply defined forces of good and evil. Pre-Christian European pagan religions tended to have neither of these features; the gods were famously capricious and could do evil as well as good, while the heroes of those stories were rarely if ever messianic. I don't see what's so 'pagan' about those stories you've cited.

I'm not sure you're making a very good case here, as much as you are layering examples upon examples that are so numerous as to be difficult to deal with - a 'Gish gallop'. Do you have one example or phenomenon that you consider to be a particularly strong argument in favour of your position?

Tatoos are pretty Pagan.

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

I think it misses the point of religion when it is considered purely in terms of political, philosophical and cultural impact. We can think all we like and come up with a decision on what we think, but no amount of choice we make will determine whether Zeus, or god exists or not. We cannot make a god exist by choosing, nor can we stop one from existing by rejecting, or choosing an incorrect understanding - all we can choose is what to believe, and to understand that our choice may have all sorts of consequences if we choose to believe the wrong thing.

I think it misses the point when one doesn't seriously consider the political, philosophical, and cultural impact that a religion has as well as its origins. To me this is an unquestioning copout that people have taken for granted. I don't think human beings are rational or fully conscious, so I'm not sure what your point is here. I don't think our choices determine if gods exist, yet I think our instinctual belief that gods do exist is something we naturally do as human beings, but that doesn't mean Christianity specifically is true as in accurate with respect to the way things actually work and have happened. I don't think our choices determine if something exist or not, but I question the truth of Christianity. There very well could be a God that doesn't mean Christianity is true. I agree but given the wrong and right thing is wrapped up in a history of development by way of social and political forces, I question whether this is a simple exercise of believing this or that which already exists, because we've yet to really transvaluate our values and beliefs. I'm going to do the work that other people generally won't or have done unfairly.

 

[Wyote]

I do when in other settings, essentially when it's appropriate, and I don't when I'm talking about ideas generally, because the ideas take precedence in my mind when dealing in discourse on a given topic. The topic gets my full attention.

Jordan Peterson is super cereal

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

Jordan Peterson is super cereal

Which is why I want to debate him.

 

[Wyote]

Which is why I want to debate him.

He's not here

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

He's not here

 

[Wyote]

Does @Cinnamonmints have your umbrella

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

I was expecting an answer about why Christianity doesn't touch on those levels of the 'cultural conscious' that you identified ('social-ego, cultural-shadow, historical unconscious, and collective unconscious'), but I don't think you've provided an answer to that.

I'm not sure where 'materialism' connects to this question, but you do cite a lot of phenomena as examples of 'paganism' re-emerging that are very strictly Christian in actuality. For example, inquisitions were established to repress Christian sects that threatened to overturn the Catholic church's monopoly on apostolic authority, rather than being anything to do at all with 'paganism'. Cathars, Waldensians, Albigenses, the 'good men' of Jacques Fournier's deposition records, and so on.

The examples you cite of pagan themes re-emerging in modern media are also interesting in that practically all of them are inseparable from Christian narratives of messianism (the 'chosen one') and contests between sharply defined forces of good and evil. Pre-Christian European pagan religions tended to have neither of these features; the gods were famously capricious and could do evil as well as good, while the heroes of those stories were rarely if ever messianic. I don't see what's so 'pagan' about those stories you've cited.

I'm not sure you're making a very good case here, as much as you are layering examples upon examples that are so numerous as to be difficult to deal with - a 'Gish gallop'. Do you have one example or phenomenon that you consider to be a particularly strong argument in favour of your position?

This is a video on Jesus and Dionysus trying to demonstrate the Pagan roots of the Christ figure.

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

Does @Cinnamonmints have your umbrella

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

I value Christianity. I want Christians to be around. I'm just a pluralist looking to understand the western psyche and history one who seeks after knowledge, insight, and truth.

 

[Wyote]

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

 

[Wyote]

 

[Jexocuha]

Lol

 

[just me]

What does the Bible mean when it refers to emulations?
Oct 3, 2022To emulate is to imitate. Emulations, as used in some older translations of the Bible, is an obsolete word meaning "jealous competition" or "ambition driven by envy." Sinful emulation is a greed-driven desire to "imitate" someone's success or share their wealth; it is a "keeping up with the Joneses," immersed in covetousness. gotquestions.org


ANSWER


To emulate is to imitate. Emulations, as used in some older translations of the Bible, is an obsolete word meaning “jealous competition” or “ambition driven by envy.” Sinful emulation is a greed-driven desire to “imitate” someone’s success or share their wealth; it is a “keeping up with the Joneses,” immersed in covetousness.

In the KJV Bible, a form of the word emulations is used in two places: one positive and one negative. Galatians 5:19–21 lists the works of the flesh. Verse 20 mentions the sins of idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, and emulations, among others. In other versions of the Bible, such as the NIV and ESV, the word jealousy replaces the KJV’s emulations.

Emulation is not the brief rise of jealous feelings we all have from time to time. The sins listed in Galatians 5:19–20 are those that define a person. Verse 21 goes on to say that “those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Sinful emulations are jealous thoughts and actions that cause a person to live in a state of hatred and envy.

In another passage, a form of the word emulations is used by Paul to refer to a beneficial “jealousy” that would cause his Jewish brothers to seek God. Romans 11:14 says, “If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them” (KJV). Paul is speaking of the fact that he had been sent by God as a missionary to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28; Romans 11:13). Because of the Jews’ sense of ethnic superiority and divine privilege, they were horrified at the idea that their Messiah had also come to save Gentiles. Paul’s hope was that, as his Jewish brothers watched Gentiles entering into a covenant relationship with God, they would be provoked to jealousy and realize their error in not accepting Jesus as their Messiah. In that case, emulations would have a positive outcome.

When we emulate someone, we imitate him or her because we admire some character quality or behavior. Paul repeatedly instructed new believers to imitate him as he imitated Christ (1 Corinthians 4:16; 11:1; Philippians 3:17). Our goal as Christians is to emulate Jesus as He emulated the Father (John 5:19; 14:12). Sinful emulations, in the KJV’s usage of the word, are related to covetousness, strife, and strong, negative emotions (see Proverbs 27:4). Hearts full of emulations prompted Joseph’s brothers to treat him ill (Genesis 37:4). Emulations led to Gehazi’s downfall (2 Kings 5:15–27). The lies told by Ananias and Sapphira were likely due to that couple’s sinful desire to attain the place of honor that Barnabas had earned in the church (Acts 4:36 — 5:10). In emulating Barnabas’ generosity, however, Ananias and Sapphira failed to emulate his honesty.

When we desire to emulate the wicked or harbor jealousy toward others, we cannot live in love and humility as God commands (Ephesians 5:2; Psalm 73:2–3). Sinful emulations will not accomplish God’s purpose in our lives, and we are to avoid allowing an attitude of envy or jealousy to live in our hearts. gotquestions.org

Do we agree with this?

 

[John K]

@Yoh Asakura I think that there is some fascinating material to discuss here around the roots of modern Western culture and it's relation to other cultures and religions, both ancient and modern, but it risks taking the thread right away from its OP focus on Jordan Peterson. It might be worth setting up a separate thread for it.

On a general note, I don't really have time to listen to lots of videos that would take several hours to play through, and longer to assimilate; maybe others find the same. I have found some of those you suggest are very interesting, but It would be really helpful if you could precis their contents when you post them, if you have the time to do this. I find that the strong points you are making are getting lost in the wealth of material, which is a shame.

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

@Yoh Asakura I think that there is some fascinating material to discuss here around the roots of modern Western culture and it's relation to other cultures and religions, both ancient and modern, but it risks taking the thread right away from its OP focus on Jordan Peterson. It might be worth setting up a separate thread for it.

On a general note, I don't really have time to listen to lots of videos that would take several hours to play through, and longer to assimilate; maybe others find the same. I have found some of those you suggest are very interesting, but It would be really helpful if you could precis their contents when you post them, if you have the time to do this. I find that the strong points you are making are getting lost in the wealth of material, which is a shame.

I see @John K , my original posts on this thread were regarding Jordan Peterson's position on the roots of modern Western culture that to me is a part of his spurious philosophical position that is a consequence of his poor understanding of western history. I was responding to other members responses to my perspective on Jordan Peterson's view and trying to provide evidence for why I think what I do. People haven't really been responding to my posts any ways, so I don't think they really have interest in the topic but were generally trying to defend Jordan Peterson or Christianity or troll. Thus, I think a separate thread would not prove fruitful.

Okay, I will now only share videos with a summary of their content. You know we all live the world through our own experiences first, I guess because I'm used to working with these topics and generally a diversity of abstract topics that I don't have a reasonable expectation for what people can do with the little time they have. It's okay, actions speak louder than words.

 

[John K]

I see @John K , my original posts on this thread were regarding Jordan Peterson's position on the roots of modern Western culture that to me is a part of his spurious philosophical position that is a consequence of his poor understanding of western history. I was responding to other members responses to my perspective on Jordan Peterson's view and trying to provide evidence for why I think what I do.

Yes of course - that’s quite right. It’s just that I haven’t replied yet to your comments on my last post, but I don’t want to push the thread further away from it’s theme. I think you made a good clarification there - I’ll pick it up in PM, but I’m tied up at the moment so it will probably be tomorrow.