Let's make this place better

[Orion]

This is an IXFX forum.

Please don't misinterpret this.

The issue isn't that other types come here, they are welcome, it goes without saying, even. I'm not saying I don't want them. This is a bigger issue. There are a huge number of people who are typing wrong. A large influx of ISFPs and ISFJs, in my opinion.

Now that indigo is leaving/gone it feels like the forum will sink into MBTI nothingness. He worked so hard to build this place up. He was one of the few truly knowledgeable in Jung's psychological type. Will the quality continue to drop? Who is upholding the integrity? Whos job is it?

We need to ask ourselves a question:

What is this forum?

This is the INFJ forum. A dedicated place in the universe for INFJs to come learn, discover and experience more about themselves and others. A place to grow and develop. It is based on Jung's theory of Psychological Type. The "INFJ" type name is derived from the MBTI, though many of us know that MBTI is but a shallow inference to the true theory of Jungian Cognitive functions, a small part of Jungs branch of thought: Analytical Psychology.

For some time now, the quality of this forum has begun to sink. We don't know what we are and what we are doing. This creates confusion, which creates misconceptions and lack of knowledge, which creates generalisations, which is really not what this place should be about.

But this is not about who is right and who is wrong. This is not about Ni or Fi or your order of preference or extroversion/introversion. I don't care if your not good at typology or if you get things wrong all the time, it's not about that.

Can INFJf be an extension of indepth jungian psychology based solely around INFJs? God knows, INFJs need somewhere they can go like I did 3 years ago. The world needs more well developed, healthy INFJs. No bullshit, no fakeness, no half baked MBTI shit. A lot of troubled members develop unhealthy habits, using the forum to perpetuate their problems instead of actively solving them. Can this place be saved?

What this place should be

I feel like INFJf should be like a university, a place where intelligence and strength of mind is developed through understanding, collective learning and shared experiences. Lets redefine this place, throw out the old, in with the new, let's re-learn and reboot the conceptual systems and make this place a true INFJ university- all welcome who are willing to learn and/or share.

Jesus, when I joined here when I was 18, I was a bit of a mess. Through Psychological Types and this forum, I can safely say I have improved as a person hugely. Life experience and this forum have helped me come to terms with myself, negative patterns of thought, low self-esteem and confidence have slowly whisked away as I gain more maturity and more self knowledge.

INFJs can be some of the most powerful people in the world, in a way that they can make great change but we have shitty start in a world that largely doesn't appreciate our natural way of viewing things. The INFJforums should actively recognise this. To think, this forum could be the helping hand that many troubled INFJs need to get through a lot of personal stuff in there lives in a way that is profound and long lasting.

This, hand in hand with continually made effort to make this place a safe haven. But I feel that if the community sorts out a lot of it's subject matter issues, the personal issues such as members not feeling safe or attacked or excluded will diminish if we create a more integral forum, which will inadvertantly scare off the people who are looking for a bit gratification by shaking the place up.

My proposal for how we do this & What I want INFJ forum to be:

1.The whole forum needs to define, what it is.

Do we follow MBTI or Analytical Psychology? This is essential in order to grow past the endless confusion and lack of clarity in understanding of what the MBTI and Cognitive functions are all about. I'm not just saying this because I want everyone to be right, I want this because I believe it will make a better forum, create more meaningful and in-depth threads and posts. This can still be a place where people just hang out and find others who they relate, but when they want to, they delve into the subject at any time and not feel confused.

We should clearly define, through the graphics on the website or through sub-forums and articles, that this is Jungian Psychology forum specifically specialised in the subject of INFJ! We should down play MBTI and bring users to understand that, while it is still valid in some ways, there is a much deeper subject at hand.

2. A concentrated and frequently updated collection of articles based on spreading better knowledge of cognitive functions and jungian psychology.

Encourage everyone to learn! Encourage intelligent Q and A's. If everyone is on the same base, then we won't have so much confusion and conflict over what everyone else is talking about. If one user is talking in MBTI whilst another in something it's just really detracting from the ultimate goal: to create an honest expression of what it means to be INFJ and to share that expression so we can learn more about our selves and others.

Send new users straight to these articles and gently introduce to the deeper subjects if they come from an MBTI background.

3. A dedicated Jungian analysis "sparring" sub-forum.

A place where people can actively analyse and people critique their analysis. For instance, a member starts a thread where they attempt to describe and analyse a family members type. We have a debate where we learn off each others experiences, more knowledgeable members can chime in and there is mutual learning going on. Members can post their own theories and revelations on the functions or any other subject.

Instead of "WRONG. WRONG. NO. WRONG." Responses to people's misunderstandings, we can have a context that is specifically designed for experimentation, so users can feel free to question and play around with their growing understanding without feeling prosecuted or ignored.

***

You could argue that many people don't want to learn any deeper, that they are not interested in cognitive functions and that they are happy with just finding other people to talk to, and that is hugely valid point. I don't want this to be elitist but I DO want to stop perpetuating bad or incorrect information. That is the whole point of building a well of decent resources in regards to INFJs, so that when people decide to, they can go somewhere where they can venture more in-depth into the subject.

I personally feel like I have nothing more to learn here but I am interested in making this a place that we can learn more from and creating a better understanding of what it means to be INFJ as well as emphasis on learning about other types.

 

[bickelz]

We should clearly define, through the graphics on the website or through sub-forums and articles, that this is Jungian Psychology forum specifically specialised in the subject of INFJ! We should down play MBTI and bring users to understand that, while it is still valid in some ways, there is a much deeper subject at hand.

[MENTION=1378]Orion[/MENTION] I liked the post and you have some good ideas but I just want to make a couple comments.

1. I feel that I've begun to understand myself and others better since I started the forum too in January. Learning about CF's has led me to understand why people say things in a certain way and why I butt heads with other people. I feel like I can analyze people with decent accuracy based on the CF's and that's pretty cool. I'm not perpetuating that "infjs are psychic" though cause that's bs but I feel like I understand why people do things more.

2. I'm not sure how far we should downplay mbti. We should focus on the CF's more but I think mbti is a good system for organizing the CF's. We're beyond 4 letters but mbti puts things in simpler terms. So I agree there should be more CF talk but it should be in tandem with mbti.

3. Should we have some sort of mechanism for organizing our own CF or mbti test for the forum? We do seem to have a population of people claiming to be infj who aren't. I honestly don't know who they are because I don't care but it does seem to annoy people. I mean the whole saru and indy thing got out of hand for a bit. I realize this could be a big project but I feel that we could all contribute questions and there could be a few people judging which questions make it into the test along with a couple coders (idk how it all would work, just spit-balling).

4. I think there should be more enneagram discussion here when talking differences in personality. Back to the saru and indy thing, maybe some people you think are not infj are actually infj but just have different enneagrams and thus seem different.

 

[jyrffw54]

I agree that there definitely should be more enneagram discussion.
We should view MBTI, CF, Enneagram, Socionics, etc.. not just as separate personality theories, colours but as one of the shades that gives a more complete picture of who we are.

 

[Faye]

I have a few things to say.

I can't say I know entirely what is going on at the moment, and I feel like given this lack of knowledge that it would be hard for me to say things without them being taken the wrong way by certain persons, as I know that many people already are involved. I hate to see people leave, and I hope that people will consider before doing so that things will be as we make them. I'm generally aloof for internet group drama because I've seen more of it than probably anyone else here (though not necessarily on these forums, but also I've been on these forums for over two years now). I'm sorry because I feel like some things could have been prevented by me if I were more active, but then again I might be part of the problem and not even know it.

The second thing is that as great as it would be to bring in other personality theories and such to educate people more and to discuss what typifies an INFJ more, I have studied them myself to an extent and can vouch for the fact that they can be difficult to understand, not to mention the difficulty of grasping MBTI. That is, if you are not motivated to learn a significant amount of information on your own, which many people here either are not or simply don't have the time/energy resources at the moment to do. My point is that, whatever we do, we shouldn't be too ambitious, because I know as INFJs we have a tendency to start big projects and not finish them, and we don't need a big project that nobody is going to finish. We should definitely talk about and educate people on the 8 cognitive functions- as those are essential for an MBTI forum. Beyond that, I don't know.

Last, what the forum needs to be, in my opinion, is simply a place for INFJs and those who are interested in INFJs to comfortably express themselves. That means we cannot be like the INTJ forum or INTP forum or other forums naturally- because if we were, then people who are INFJs would not be comfortable and would leave. And some types friendly to INFJs might leave as well. I can't easily say what this means specifically, but we have to maintain courtesy, free discussion, combined with a lack of rigidity and arbitrariness which goes against the desire for personable interactions in the INFJ type.

I mean, I'll be honest- I didn't even read Orion's post word for word. Sorry Orion. But I know that this forum is really something that is at the margins of our lives, even people with a high post count. It should certainly be an outlet and a place to relate and connect as it has been.

The very last thing I'll say is that (which is most important), and this is my greatest fear, if any sort of INFJ witch hunt to a lesser or greater degree emerges, it will hurt INFJs more than any other type. Things still need to remain inclusive insofar as people are willing to be kind to each other. Conflict will drive INFJs away, and it is no secret that the internet tends to bring out aggression in people, which makes the task more difficult.

 

[grt$5vb]

"this is my greatest fear, if any sort of INFJ witch hunt to a lesser or greater degree emerges, it will hurt INFJs more than any other type. Things still need to remain inclusive insofar as people are willing to be kind to each other. Conflict will drive INFJs away, and it is no secret that the internet tends to bring out aggression in people, which makes the task more difficult."

[MENTION=834]Dragon[/MENTION] This is true. I come here for love and understanding, besides insight & knowledge. I have enough undesired conflict irl. No thank you. Please no.

 

[This]

[MENTION=1378]Orion[/MENTION] I think I understand what you're saying and I do agree it would be nice to have a section for more articles and such (I personally am particularly interested in cognitive neuroimaging and would like to read more research on the subject.), However this forum is about more to me than MBTI. I do admit that when I first came to this place learning more about MBTI and seeing how I related to other INFJs was my main objective. but something else happened, new friends started reaching out, [MENTION=2873]Serenity[/MENTION], [MENTION=3710]kiu[/MENTION], and [MENTION=947]aeon[/MENTION] (and many others since then) have extended kindnesses to me that I've never seen come from "strangers" on the internet before. this place is no longer about MBTI for me, there are places like PerN for that. This place is warmer, like a family.

I don't know if it's this forum or the way things have been going in my personal life lately, but I'm crying while typing this, remembering all the chats I've had with people here and the friends I've made. I need this place far more than anyone will ever know.

The thought of this place becoming purely clinical and academic is something I can not bare to think about.

Edit: Also please don't let this forum become about who is a "real" INFJ, you can not truly know what someone else is unless you can see the world through their own two eyes, touch the sand with their own two hands and listen to the music of the chatter of life through their own two ears.

 

[NiennaLadyOfTears]

Conflict will drive INFJs away, and it is no secret that the internet tends to bring out aggression in people, which makes the task more difficult.

Yes it will, which is why I've been drifting in and out a lot lately. I cannot STAND conflict and hate to see yet another internet community that I have joined be in the process of collapse... it's happened far too many times for me. :/

Also to say that no two typology tests are the same, someone may be INFJ on the MBTI but be INFP on another one, or given the wording of the test may even show up as ISFJ or INTJ or whatever depending on how strong of preferences for the characteristics they have. I am one of those, though I feel I fit all of the descriptions of INFJ better than any other category though I occasionally show up as ISFJ or INFP. Don't make it about who is really an INFJ or not; if someone is clearly showing behavior that isn't, have your suspicions but don't tell them what you think unless you ask. And please don't compile all the tests together and make us "pass the hoops" of being an INFJ to call us and INFJ for the purposes of this forum! That would be disturbing to a lot of us and possibly turn us off the forum entirely.

 

[Morgain]

Hey Orion,

I really appreciate your proposal and I would be more than happy to discuss MBTI and CF more in depth.

It is strange but I have never had the feeling that people (except for a few exceptions) on here really want to dig deep. Almost every time I post a question or a link to a very interesting article about MBTI I get about 3 reactions and then the thread dies. In my experience most people here start with curiosity but very soon they are satisfied and start chatting about "what is the most yammy jelly bean". Or worse start acting as MBTI guru.

Secondly it is hard to know who is right. We are all learning about MBTI, non of us is professionally trained in MBTI so who is holding the truth. I think misconceptions and discussions about right or wrong are inevitable.

and about what this place SHOULD be like. It should be a place where people respect each other and people SHOULD be less attached to it. Keep a distance, this is not your home, this is not a family, this is not your life. It is a place you can go to for comfort and help but afterwards you go back to your own life. Think by yourself, what would happen to me if this forum would die. If you would go into a deep depression than you know something is really wrong. It is a forum, don't grow too attached and don't try to run it like it is your own household.

nonetheless I'm more than happy to contribute to a subforum with a better MBTI foundation. Lets start with the subforums we already have!

 

[soulseeker]

Jesus, when I joined here when I was 18, I was a bit of a mess. Through Psychological Types and this forum, I can safely say I have improved as a person hugely. Life experience and this forum have helped me come to terms with myself, negative patterns of thought, low self-esteem and confidence have slowly whisked away as I gain more maturity and more self knowledge.

yeah this is true when I joined here.. I was around 15 and now I'm turning 18

I was also a mess before ahahah and this forum helped me. When I didn't have "real" real life friends... I had friends here that supported me. In a way, I gathered strength through this forum.

And I really miss the people who are gone and are going

 

[Orion]

[MENTION=1378]Orion[/MENTION]
2. I'm not sure how far we should downplay mbti. We should focus on the CF's more but I think mbti is a good system for organizing the CF's. We're beyond 4 letters but mbti puts things in simpler terms. So I agree there should be more CF talk but it should be in tandem with mbti.

In my opinion, the type names, are just place holders and MBTI is kind of irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Maybe we can talk about Jung's work in an MBTI structured way- to learn from the MBTI in the way that it has managed to simply things- but at the end of the day, this is psychology.

Having said that my Fe wants everyone to know the value of type, so I will do everything necessary to make it accessible to as many people as possible on the forum, which still keeps the depth and integrity of the material intact.

3. Should we have some sort of mechanism for organizing our own CF or mbti test for the forum? We do seem to have a population of people claiming to be infj who aren't. I honestly don't know who they are because I don't care but it does seem to annoy people. I mean the whole saru and indy thing got out of hand for a bit. I realize this could be a big project but I feel that we could all contribute questions and there could be a few people judging which questions make it into the test along with a couple coders (idk how it all would work, just spit-balling).

I'm not sure about tests... I think they truly suck. PerN tried it and I wasn't impressed because the writer is usually biased and a whole lot of other factors that come into play. We should create "Phases of Analysis", a step by step approach of judging your type, based on your own initiative and analysis and help from other members. At the end of the day, it should be the individual that does the work, instead of starting "type me" threads and expecting people to do the work for them.

4. I think there should be more enneagram discussion here when talking differences in personality. Back to the saru and indy thing, maybe some people you think are not infj are actually infj but just have different enneagrams and thus seem different.

I'll be honest, I know nothing about enneagram. I'm not going to look into it because I'm still getting my head around the mammoth task of getting an understanding of Analytical Psychology overall. But yes, anything and everything that helps, we should get good people to work on it.

 

[Orion]

[MENTION=1378]Orion[/MENTION] I think I understand what you're saying and I do agree it would be nice to have a section for more articles and such (I personally am particularly interested in cognitive neuroimaging and would like to read more research on the subject.), However this forum is about more to me than MBTI. I do admit that when I first came to this place learning more about MBTI and seeing how I related to other INFJs was my main objective. but something else happened, new friends started reaching out, [MENTION=2873]Serenity[/MENTION], [MENTION=3710]kiu[/MENTION], and [MENTION=947]aeon[/MENTION] (and many others since then) have extended kindnesses to me that I've never seen come from "strangers" on the internet before. this place is no longer about MBTI for me, there are places like PerN for that. This place is warmer, like a family.

My friend, I know what you mean. This is a personal place of friendship, shared experience and collective understanding, that should never go away. But my point is, that I feel a tighter more integral and better understanding of the psychological models we are actually using to put up tent, will make this a better place, with less conflict.

The thought of this place becoming purely clinical and academic is something I can not bare to think about.

Edit: Also please don't let this forum become about who is a "real" INFJ, you can not truly know what someone else is unless you can see the world through their own two eyes, touch the sand with their own two hands and listen to the music of the chatter of life through their own two ears.

I would never want that, I would hate that. I've tried INTJ and INTP forums, no thanks!

I want this place to be best of both, a personal, private space in the world where INFJs can go to truly express them selves but also an intelligent, endless well of knowledge and growth through Jungian Psychology. As [MENTION=2675]NiennaLadyOfTears[/MENTION]; said, INFJs come here to escape from the shitty world of conflict that we are oh so familiar with, this place should be a haven for INFJs and everything one who wants to add to and share with the community.

 

[Orion]

The second thing is that as great as it would be to bring in other personality theories and such to educate people more and to discuss what typifies an INFJ more, I have studied them myself to an extent and can vouch for the fact that they can be difficult to understand, not to mention the difficulty of grasping MBTI. That is, if you are not motivated to learn a significant amount of information on your own, which many people here either are not or simply don't have the time/energy resources at the moment to do. My point is that, whatever we do, we shouldn't be too ambitious, because I know as INFJs we have a tendency to start big projects and not finish them, and we don't need a big project that nobody is going to finish. We should definitely talk about and educate people on the 8 cognitive functions- as those are essential for an MBTI forum. Beyond that, I don't know.

But don't you see? That is the challenge! It's the key to improving this place. And I'm up for it :becky:

 

[InvisibleJim]

It is strange but I have never had the feeling that people (except for a few exceptions) on here really want to dig deep. Almost every time I post a question or a link to a very interesting article about MBTI I get about 3 reactions and then the thread dies.

One shouldn't be overly critical of responses to articles. The years of typology have taught me that the fewer comments on the post = the better constructed and reasoned it is.

It wouldn't be the first time someone has approached me and said 'I really liked this article you wrote on this site or this site' usually on a completely different site and when they've only just joined! It's a very curious and complex phenomenon.

Really this is why nowadays I simply go for slightly controversial topics and I make my posts quite brief to prompt pages and pages of discussion.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpoPWkXAC2A&NR=1"]YouTube - Cartman - Make it right video[/ame]


AS.

WE.

KNOW IT.

 

[KazeCraven]

*shrugs*

I never really considered this to be a place for getting at "the truth." I remember the first time I came here that someone advised me not to look into the typology section pretty much for that reason. From my understanding, many people come here after having read some type description that resonates with them, hoping to find people similar to themselves. But those type descriptions are quite, quite different from the way that Jung originally intended the types to be. So what happens when the community you've been in for months decides it no longer recognizes the MBTI-INFJ as valid?

I'd imagine that's your biggest obstacle.

Oh, and I'd also say that defining what INFJ really is or isn't is a terrible idea. The growth in studying typology for me has been in realizing all the different perspectives that people hold and, moreover, how much variability there is in what are "supposed" to be defining characteristics that should always go together and should never change over one's lifetime. I think the deeper into typology you go, the more apparent it becomes that we're just taking the biggest variations in personality and drawing lines in the sand to make an easily understandable map for learning about the ways we can vary in our outlook/philosophies on life.

I think that the real growth is in really understanding where other people are coming from and in learning where we aren't seeing ourselves so clearly. And considering all the different backgrounds people come in with, I think it's counterproductive to decide who is "right" or what we "should" be doing with this place before getting to that.

 

[Seraffa]

One shouldn't be overly critical of responses to articles. The years of typology have taught me that the fewer comments on the post = the better constructed and reasoned it is.

It wouldn't be the first time someone has approached me and said 'I really liked this article you wrote on this site or this site' usually on a completely different site and when they've only just joined! It's a very curious and complex phenomenon.

Really this is why nowadays I simply go for slightly controversial topics and I make my posts quite brief to prompt pages and pages of discussion.

Wow - you have no idea how much better that statement makes me feel, actually.
All I wanted was to display myself as intelligent, and receive intelligence back.
My own opinion is there is a lot of attention whoring around here, and then if you don't give in, "hurt" feelings of some sort. But, that is what happens with a typical crowd of people, for some reason.
I just wanted to be different, and come to a place that "made the difference," basically.

But I think another leader besides an Indigo Child can do the same job - if not better.
Indigo Children haven't automatically cornered the market on intelligence.
It's going to make another person grow who takes on the position.

 

[Orion]

I remember the first time I came here that someone advised me not to look into the typology section pretty much for that reason. From my understanding, many people come here after having read some type description that resonates with them, hoping to find people similar to themselves. But those type descriptions are quite, quite different from the way that Jung originally intended the types to be. So what happens when the community you've been in for months decides it no longer recognizes the MBTI-INFJ as valid?

Of course. And that is the biggest issue with this forum and the quality of it. But I see the I see value in the possibilities in what I propose. Your analysis is right and I agree but... whats next? I'm not up for musing over the problems and inconsistencies and then simply walking away.

Oh, and I'd also say that defining what INFJ really is or isn't is a terrible idea. The growth in studying typology for me has been in realizing all the different perspectives that people hold and, moreover, how much variability there is in what are "supposed" to be defining characteristics that should always go together and should never change over one's lifetime. I think the deeper into typology you go, the more apparent it becomes that we're just taking the biggest variations in personality and drawing lines in the sand to make an easily understandable map for learning about the ways we can vary in our outlook/philosophies on life.

I think that the real growth is in really understanding where other people are coming from and in learning where we aren't seeing ourselves so clearly. And considering all the different backgrounds people come in with, I think it's counterproductive to decide who is "right" or what we "should" be doing with this place before getting to that.

But this is an INFJ forum. A place specifically centered to INFJ preferences, by definition it extends itself first and foremost to self exploration, but I don't agree that self exploration is mutually exclusive from understanding others. To be honest, I saw the understanding of others and their perspectives as a given, when it comes to understanding yourself- I see the two as intrinsically linked. It's funny. I always assumed that one of the intrinsic aspects of self exploration and understanding, is the mutual attention given to the exploration and understanding of others opinions and perspectives. I guess I didn't state that in the OP as it always seemed so obvious to me, but you make a fair point. But what you say goes against the notion of having a type specific forum in the first place. No one forum could encapsulate the complexity and depth of every single type.

 

[KazeCraven]

Of course. And that is the biggest issue with this forum and the quality of it. But I see the I see value in the possibilities in what I propose. Your analysis is right and I agree but... whats next? I'm not up for musing over the problems and inconsistencies and then simply walking away.

Good, you may in fact be a few steps ahead of me then. I can see this forum probably could do with more direction and focus, but I was commenting more on that there is no next until you change your plan to accommodate those people who have different aspirations and investments in this forum.

Now I'm seeing that my point wasn't necessary, as you are simply pushing for change in spite of this resistance.

But this is an INFJ forum. A place specifically centered to INFJ preferences, by definition it extends itself first and foremost to self exploration, but I don't agree that self exploration is mutually exclusive from understanding others. To be honest, I saw the understanding of others and their perspectives as a given, when it comes to understanding yourself- I see the two as intrinsically linked. It's funny. I always assumed that one of the intrinsic aspects of self exploration and understanding, is the mutual attention given to the exploration and understanding of others opinions and perspectives. I guess I didn't state that in the OP as it always seemed so obvious to me, but you make a fair point. But what you say goes against the notion of having a type specific forum in the first place. No one forum could encapsulate the complexity and depth of every single type.

And here I thought you weren't seeing this. Though I don't agree that something specifically catered to certain preferences lends itself to self-exploration. INTPc caters to a rather specific personality; nuff said.

Actually, now that I think about it, I do think that having a type specific forum, in general, is a bad idea when it comes to growth and development. But apparently the forums used to be better in the past? I'd lost interest in these forums lately, but I thought that was just me.


So what's your next step?

 

[Orion]

So what's your next step?

Still mulling over the details. But I know the first thing we need is to get some decent articles in here, so there is at least a home bred well of information for the members seeking to expand their knowledge.

 

[Billy]

Is this your 1st real forum? Forums are living entities, they change and mold with time until they die off. I have been on 100s of forums, they all go through the same cycles. You really cant make this anything other then what it is, a meeting place for a series of different people... the forum will always be just exactly that and as the people change so does the atmosphere of it.

If the forum is sinking, I would look more into MBTI as a whole becoming less exciting and more and more people realizing that MBTI itself doesn't properly encapsulate a true person. I cant distinguish between my or other peoples personalities anymore based on the simple fact that any way you slice someones words or actions you can fit it into one of the preconceived molds of the MBTI.

I think MBTI in general is just losing its appeal on a more big picture scene and as such its correlating entities like discussion groups etc are stagnating.

Its like trying to organize dwindling money supply into different savings accounts, it doesn't really help to reorganize and reorganize something thats drying up. If anything it could even possibly make it happen faster.

The important part to remember here is that this forum is a forum 1st, and forums go through a natural timeline. IME most forums last 1-3 years with some lasting 5-10 I have been a member on another forum since Aug 2000 when I was 18 or 19, at 30 its still going but where once there was 10,000 members there is now merely about 20.

Think of it like a star that had been a yellow sun, bloated into a supergiant, then shed its hydrogen and collapsed into a neutron.