[PUG] Natural Family Values

I really am not seeking advice. This is not stressful to me to a point I can't handle it. I can handle it. I am expressing my ideology and I do believe that it can and will change with education and the spreading of this sort of ideology. These things need to be corrected. And once more, I am not looking down on people who do have kids or get married but it's to a point where people do not even critically think about why they do these things- life is predetermined for a massive amount of us, and that is not how it should be. I do not think I sit around and bitch and moan about an issue while doing nothing about it or living my life contrary to it- I am spreading this ideology and I am getting people to think about things. I also am also living according to my beliefs so thereby I am living by example, but for me, there is no harm in also discussing it. When people bring it up so often I have a right to discuss my point of view just as much at they do, and just because it's an unpopular opinion does not mean I am being preachy or shunning other people's beliefs by expressing my own.
 
I completely agree with you, Slant; there is far too much instinctual and lusty grabbing for "more", and too little pondering of actions. I just framed the opposite side's justification from what I've seen. Read carefully, you will see I never agreed with their position. In fact, "Which is what many cannot get over - the world is always changing" is my advocation for more reflection on personal values in hopes something will yield and change will come. Change that I believe can be helped along with a stronger education system.
 
One thing you can include in your discussions of spreading critical thinking about having children is the fact in the US - having babies fuels the economy.
Getting married means moving into your own house, buying appliances, cars, consuming electricity, paying property taxes and so on. Having children adds more the economy in the form of purchasing goods and services.
The US needs more and more young people to "come into being" to fuel the existing forms of economy.

Right now China is a quandary about their low birth rate. Back when they enacted the "only one child" law - it was to help bring about prosperity (and wealth to the rich) to it's peoples. Their birth rate plummeted - not their population - but birth rate. Economists are now predicting China's economy will also begin to plummet in about 10 years if they don't encourage people to start having more than one child. They've already repealed the law and still the newly married only have one child.

This is only one small part of the system. Yet billions upon billions of dollars are spent on advertising and marketing buying new stuff. Getting married and having babies falls right in line with that behavior. Right? I'm 55 and my generation is done with all of that phase. We don't need a bigger house. We don't need 3 or 4 televisions or computers or what have you. We are downsizing. If the generations that come after us don't have children and buy buy buy...how are the wealthy going to get richer?

By the way. I made the decision to not have children when I started college at age 18. My relatives constantly asked me when was I going to quit college, get married, and have babies. On and on and on and on.
Eventually I quit telling them the truth and just shut up. I'd smile and ignore them. It was part of the process where I learned I am different - weird.
When I finally got my tubes tied at age 27 - I told them. That was the end of that....

Most people get a scary feeling when they discover you are not like them. They feel they can't predict your behavior and that impacts their trust of you. (not you literally - you know what I mean). A great many people cannot think outside of their own box. Keep this in mind when you are talking with them out there.

Good topic, btw. I wish you much success in promoting dialogue about this.
 
It's natural for people to want to pass on their genes...
It's basically the goal of all living things...

Those who happen to see it differently do adopt kids or opt to not have any...
Also, birthrates are shown to decrease in countries where women are educated.
Education is the way to control population.
 
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... or he could become a psychopath lawyer, push to revive the eugenics laws and incorporate a broader degree of people into them.
 
Slant, the pressure goes away when you choose to ignore it. A mysterious smile does wonders to shut people up.

People have children for all sorts of reasons and they won't stop. However, I've seen twice where couples wanted their own natural born children and being thwarted in that they turned to adoption so in a strange way that desire was redirected to helping children in need of loving homes. I think these matters are deeply emotional for some people and it's hard to put their expectations aside. Sometimes, they need to go through a struggle of some sort before they can see that love doesn't come in an idealistic package.
 
slant said:
The problem is that it IS broken and it DOES need to be fixed. Our society is experiencing a lot of harm by people reproducing needlessly.
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I don't know how much you can make people think. Education is always good of course. I think it would help if we paid people to get sterilized. Or maybe an iPad or iPhone for sterilization. Although I guess a car is not bad, a bit expensive even for a cheap one: http://www.sovereignindependent.com/?p=22635. Overpopulation is less of a concern in developed nations than children, arriving by accident, growing up unwanted and mistreated.
 
There was a small town in Southern UT that epitomizes this, in fact they were featured in the documentary about this; they pride themselves on it, the even helped write the book on it.

I am not proud to be living in this town...
 
Lerxst said:
There was a small town in Southern UT that epitomizes this, in fact they were featured in the documentary about this; they pride themselves on it, the even helped write the book on it.

I am not proud to be living in this town...
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Kanab? I was taught film by the guy who made that documentary. I stole the title.
 
slant said:
Kanab? I was taught film by the guy who made that documentary. I stole the title.
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It's fucking shameful to be living in a town known for this...
 
willow said:
Slant, the pressure goes away when you choose to ignore it. A mysterious smile does wonders to shut people up.
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funny-smile.jpg
 
Your question is almost like asking, "Why do we think eating is important?" or "Why do we need to pee?" Procreation is one of our strongest drives. Morality enters the picture in order to steer us into procreating in a responsible way, with concern for others, especially our children. The extended family evolved as the best way (in most cases) to raise our young. Marriage is primarily used a signal to males in the community about who can have sex with Woman X, with secondary purposes such as keeping the father around for the kids and not violating women's sense of being bonded to those with whom we have sex.

Marriage and kids doesn't have to be the end all of your existence. If what you want out of life is good times, you are probably better off not marrying and not having kids, because family comes with a LOT of headaches. However, Dennis Prager once said that if you really want to experience the depth of life, to be challenged and to grow, marry someone of the other gender and raise kids together. It reminds me of the romantic saying, "Suck the marrow out of life."
 
GracieRuth said:
If what you want out of life is good times, you are probably better off not marrying and not having kids, because family comes with a LOT of headaches. However, Dennis Prager once said that if you really want to experience the depth of life, to be challenged and to grow, marry someone of the other gender and raise kids together. It reminds me of the romantic saying, "Suck the marrow out of life."
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You seem to be insinuating that slant just wants to party till he/she dies, and doesn't want to grow from facing challenges, as a result of his/her ideology.
 
willow said:
If you refuse to get into discussions with people about your personal choices then those people are forced to keep their unwanted input to themselves.
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I am not sure what sort of people who you interact with on a daily basis, but even if you do not respond to them they continue to insinuate and converse and prod and poke. It does not stop. Not only does ignoring it make the efforts increase (because people get mad that you are 'ignoring them' not 'listening' or 'being an arsehole') they often will instigate a sort of fight or people ASSUMING your beliefs are the same as theirs. That's like saying if you see someone yelling racial slurs at someone, just smile and ignore it, then people will stop. Or if the person who is being yelled racial slurs at, are people just going to stop if they smile and ignore it? No. They don't stop. In fact a lot of times a lack of reaction will create a bigger problem than already exists. If there is an issue, confrontation works better than ignoring it, especially if it has to do with your own beliefs and moral system. Most people would not smile if people assumed they were slave owners and 'ignore' that accusation.
 
slant said:
I am not sure what sort of people who you interact with on a daily basis, but even if you do not respond to them they continue to insinuate and converse and prod and poke. It does not stop. Not only does ignoring it make the efforts increase (because people get mad that you are 'ignoring them' not 'listening' or 'being an arsehole') they often will instigate a sort of fight or people ASSUMING your beliefs are the same as theirs. That's like saying if you see someone yelling racial slurs at someone, just smile and ignore it, then people will stop. Or if the person who is being yelled racial slurs at, are people just going to stop if they smile and ignore it? No. They don't stop. In fact a lot of times a lack of reaction will create a bigger problem than already exists. If there is an issue, confrontation works better than ignoring it, especially if it has to do with your own beliefs and moral system. Most people would not smile if people assumed they were slave owners and 'ignore' that accusation.
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These are good points, Slant. Not everyone lives in an environment where the people are polite and respect other's boundaries.

So I was wondering....When they start in on asking you when you're going to:.....[fill in the blank] ...Do you ever turn the question around and ask them when are they going to [fill in the blank on some topic you think they need to do - besides understanding your perspective]?

Another thing I thought of was when they ask you about having babies - you could ask them to tell you the best AND the worst part of having children - in their own experience. At the best it may get them to consider a point they hadn't thought of before. It may foster a closer relationship between the two of you. You may learn more of what is important to these people and broaden your understanding.

I think in good persuasion debates - the winner usually has an excellent understanding of the motivations of who they are debating against.
I may be wrong about that.....but gaining more understanding surely will help you in your cause. Don't you think?
 
slant said:
I am not sure what sort of people who you interact with on a daily basis, but even if you do not respond to them they continue to insinuate and converse and prod and poke. It does not stop. Not only does ignoring it make the efforts increase (because people get mad that you are 'ignoring them' not 'listening' or 'being an arsehole') they often will instigate a sort of fight or people ASSUMING your beliefs are the same as theirs. That's like saying if you see someone yelling racial slurs at someone, just smile and ignore it, then people will stop. Or if the person who is being yelled racial slurs at, are people just going to stop if they smile and ignore it? No. They don't stop. In fact a lot of times a lack of reaction will create a bigger problem than already exists. If there is an issue, confrontation works better than ignoring it, especially if it has to do with your own beliefs and moral system. Most people would not smile if people assumed they were slave owners and 'ignore' that accusation.
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I must admit that I'm puzzled at why such personal matters should be up for discussion with what seems like random people. Smiling is also not the same as ignoring. It sends the message that I want it known that I'm aware but I will not be drawn. I don't care what people assume and although I do not like to be called names, I will not be drawn into discussing private matters against my will. They can rage all they want. The only point I could see in a discussion is if I wished to persuade them to my side. People like you describe are unlikely to be interested in a rational discussion.

You know best what will work in your situation.
 
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willow said:
The only point I could see in a discussion is if I wished to persuade them to my side. People like you describe are unlikely to be interested in a rational discussion.

You know best what will work in your situation.
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I agree. You can point this out to these people. And if they want to talk about it seriously with you, then they will. If not, then they'll have to admit that they're just being assholes about it, and you can call them out for that and question them about it. In this case, I'd be fine with being an asshole back until they stfu, but you might have qualms about that.
 
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